Articles, enjoy.

[T.L.]

Article #2 Further understanding of the environments (which I called lucid dreamscapes in the first article). Aspects of the self, and more on projection.

1.) New ways of thought

This article is being written for people like me - free thinkers. Free thinkers are people who challenge normal every day things, we challenge normal everyday concepts. We wish to make un-knowns into knowns by facing everything from a non -biased stand point. We realize for everon thing that there are more things we can learn from and about it. Even if its an everyday experience we know there is more we can learn about it.

We understand that the limitations of the physical need not dictate the level of our mind or influence its limitless abilities and infinite potential. Having said that let's get right into it. This writting is about lucid dreams and astral projections, but this whole article is for the most part centered around lucid dreams, aspects of consciously induced lucid dreams and naturally occuring lucid dreams. When one thinks of lucid dreams for the most part they think of dreams that you have complete control of. Which is right for the most part. Here is what I think when I hear the term lucid dreams. Lucid dreams are a direct connection to the subconscious with little to no filtering, there are two kinds of lucid dreams consciously induced or naturally occuring, a gateway to other states and the door way to conscious sleep (non-rem) - the lucid dream is the door that will let you consciously cross over to the aforementioned state (conscious sleep). I think of more than that but those are the basic forms of thought I go through.

Regular lucid dreamers experience what I call naturally occuring lucid dreams. They consciously conditioned theirselves to recognize what they call dream signs while they are deraming. Dream signs are things that might happen while in the dreams, things that normally wouldnt or couldnt happen in their phyiscal lives. An example of this is they are dreaming and see a person fly, the person floats with out support, they see this and right then they know they are dreaming resulting in a lucid dream. They consciously acknowledge they are dreaming and a fluctuation of consciousness occurs and from there they have conscious control and awareness. The fluctuation will also affect the dreamscape or environment itself forcing it into a high detailed,vivid, and more physical dream.

Regular lucid dreamers are completely content of their ability to control dreams, which is good thing. The problem with that is they never once think about other options or experiences they have concious access to. While some may devise ways of control in the lucid dreams that result in a longer lucid dream, they never once thought they have another option. They think the lengths of their lucid dreams are only limited to the lengths of their rem sleep cycles. They think that when a rem cycle ends it is the end of their lucid dream and when the dream fades away their consciousness is swept away also. While the last statement is true it doesnt mean there arent other options. Options they didnt know about or otions they originally thought were impossible. In this article I lay out the options I speak of, and along with it I will tell you how to have the options and how to experience them.

In these two articles, I dont hope people will read this and automatically believe me. What I hope is to pique your interest so that you will try and experience what I talk about for yourselves. I say these articles because this article is to be a companion for my walkthrough article on how to experience what I speak of. This article will contain things I didnt write in the first, and explainations of things I wrote in the other article to simplify it of rpeople who might not completely understand the first article. You may ask "why if what you say is true and it works, are you taking your time to tell others rather than keeping this to yourself?" I can tell you its not to profit heh. Well the reason is because I am not selfish what so ever. I iwsh to help others and by doing so maybe it will result in more research to be done on aspects of sleep and other experiences as well, such as astral projection. I want others to have access to their spiritual selves. When one hears spiritual they think of religion. Those two have nothing in common. Religion plays no role in these experiences.  I am talking about being able to understand your origin and experience your true non-physical form, and have choices in the non-physical paths you can take. My last reason is because I love people. I am empathetic to those of us who feel lost or depressed by the pressures of the physical, when they needn't be. I will be honest there was a time I was in a way selfish. I was so absorbed and conditioned to the physical my ways of thought invilved nothing but the physical. I broke out of this cycle of thought when a very wise person named uri told me in an email not to focus on the physical aspects of the mind but more on the non-physical and to use my time to help others.

Of course at the time I didnt know what I know now. His very insightful and somewhat cryptic message set me onto a path I am on now, and it took me sometime to understand what is important. So now that I know a way I can help others, I will do just that.Once I uncover other unkowns and make them knowns, these forums you frequent will be the first places whom I will go wtih my new information.

So now you have a little insight to how much depth there is invovled what I would like each of you to ask yourselves is would you like to experience what I explained in my last article? Do you have the will to completely re-vamp your way of thought and your thinking processes?

The truth is so many of us are too caught up in our physical lives to have time or want to take the time to do any of these things. Once I knew the process and knew and realized teh mechanics I was able to experience what I explained in the last article my first try. Its true I practiced projection and lucid dreams for over five months little to no avail but I was blindly trying to do something I didnt understand, it was not till I come to a realization that I was able to completely understand. Once I understood, first try was all it took for me to experience what I always wanted to but couldnt. Heres what I have known but not understood. To project you need to lay there and get your body asleep keeping mind awake. At first I thought okay getting the body to sleep should be easy. I realized the person would have to go to sleep, regular non dreaming sleep consciously or within the beginning stages of this. Robert bruce said in his boook: Astral dynamics that if one finds himself/herself in sleeping paralysis a projection has already occured or is occuring. This is not always true as I can relate from my experiences. You can go from complete consciousness to a lucid dreamscape carefully traverse into non dreaming conscious sleep and at that point try to move and you will be paralyzed, then still seperate no problem as long as paralyses doesnt make you panic. I agree with Robert Bruce with just about everything else. Next topic will be what the differences are between natrual and induced lucid states.

2.) Differences between natural occuring lucid dreams and consciously induced lucid dreams (environments)

This topic will be exptremely short and straight forward. The first and most obvious difference between the two of these, is natrually occurring lucid dreams are when one becomes conscious in an already active dream. In this state the dreamscape already has people and things created by your subconscious. This state can become extremely chaotic causing the lucid dreamer to lose hi/her consciousness. With consciously induced lucid dreamscapes you do this from conscious non dreaming sleep. In this state once you enter your created environment you will be all there is, short of the environment itself. The reason for this is its a completely new/fresh environment that your subconscious dself never fooled with yet. Since you're conscious in this new environment your subconscious wont do anything with it at all unless you state the intention for it to cretae something, perhaps a person,people,art,drawing-anything you want it will create. This state is perfectly clear, its higher in detail-more than you can imagine, and has more uses than I can state here. This brings me to the next topic.

3.) Uses for the consciously induced environments as opposed to the naturally occuring.

In induced environments you can carry out what you originally set out to do without the distractions of people and other things that would be going on in a naturally occuring one.
If you are an artist who paints once in a induced environment state internally or externally (out loud) you want to see a remarkable painting and it will appear where ever your focus or attention is, like in referrence to in front of you on the ground or in your hands. It will be more intricate and amazing than you could ever conceive. Then study it, memorize it then traverse to non dreaming conscious sleep and once ou can physically start to feel your body sit up. Since you didnt lose consciousness you will remember everything perfectly. Not only will the painting your subconscious created be wonderful it will be symbolic- having an insightful message/meaning that can be interpreted, which adds all the
more beauty to it.

If you are the kind of person who likes to relax, once entering an induced environment you can just sit and relax and observe. This is the ideal state since there will be nothing exept you can the environment

If you draw you would do the same thing as a painter would, same thing goes for poems,songs, anything else artistic even sculptures.

If you wish to experiment, the induced environment is ideal as there will be no distractions, unless you consciously create some yourself to challenge yourself for whatever reason.

If you are like me and want to speak with your subconscious self or want to receive messages from it there are a number of ways I will state here.
1. If you want to view messages or subconscious images while the induced dreamscape hold the intention for a television to be created in which your subconscious will show you images or video to communicate with you or send a message to you. Take a seat and watch it.

2. If you want to conversate with your subconscious with actual spoken words hol dthe intention to create a person which will embody your subconsciousness, it will be a vehical for your subconscious self. The amazing thing about this test is it does work perfectly. Instead of your subconscious speaking to you through symbolic images it may speak to you directly yet in symbolic speech, it will be normal speech but have great symbolic meaning.

If you enjoy sexual intercourse this can be done too just hold the intention of creating your ideal partner and your subconscious will create him/her, or more if thats what you want. you will notice that when you create people your subconscious doesnt create drones or mindless bodies, each person has his or her own personality, phyical attributes, likes and disklikes. If you do not approach those you created they will go do their own thing, and even converse with one another. If you hol dthe intention for them to do something they will do it. If you tell them to out loud without holding the intention internally they may not do what you say, holding internally the intetion is key. Another side note is the people you create here in the induced environment cant bring about new things in the dreamscape or create unless you tell them to do so. If you create a body/vehical for your subconscious he/her will be able to bring about things in the environment as him/her has as much control as you do, but it wont be distracting. If you want him/her to leave it will no problem, usually.

I have listed many things you can do from here, but there are millions of possible applications. Be creative and you may leanr and experience very interesting things.

4.) My personal experience with consciously induced environments

Here I will state just two of my experiences. this way you can decide if this is something you may want to experience, and so you may know what kinds of things to expect.

My very first experience: I lay still for about 15 minutes, on my back breathing through my nose. I then hear a click caused by my heater. The click occurs in th eheater and a second or half second later an impact feeling hits my head resulting from the sound in my room, a fuzy feeling along with an electricity type of shock sweeps from my head to my feet. I pay no attention to these sensations. Then the electric type shocks just keep occuring till its one steady electrocution type of sensation. The hypnagogic visuals start coming, once they start to occur more I pay a little attention to them, thus lowering myself deeper. I hit a breaking point, my consciousness feels like it wants to slip away but I get a good grip and dont give up. Instantly I black out, what feels like a second later I find myself in a big office. It feels as thought I am physically waking up. I look around. THe floors were tiled wooden floors. The walls were white. There were windows that revealed outside. I looked around, this office was completely empty. I first thought I might liven this up. Once I knew about how many people I wnated, I held the intention to create and they just appeared, along with deks, sculptures, amongst other office stuff. I noted these sculptures were complex with the most intricate designs I have even seen.

I noticed a few guys looking at a girl. I realized there were almost all guys with only a few girls. So I said "they need more women" and held the intention to create more women. The very second I held the intention there was a knock at the door, and women entered. I marveled at each person and their personalities, each one was unique, had their own physical attributes, each had their own likes and dislikes. They went about and did their own thing and even conversated with one another. I admired everything I was able to create for a while. I wanted to see if I could order them around, while holding the intention for what I wanted them to do, I yelled "Get all this crap out of here." All the people scurried around helping each other take desks out. I laughed to myself because I was in complete control. I got kind of annoyed as they were taking so long to get everything out. I held the intention for them to disappear and they were gone, just like that. I sat in this office thinking things through, then perceived it was fading, I let it fade while exercising my consciousness/awareness by using internal dialogue. Once faded I then had physical body awareness and felt which position I lay. I tried to move my physical fingers and couldnt, I was paralyzed. I was in regular non dreaming sleep consciously.

I could go from conscious sleep to these environments back and forth non stop as long as I wanted and then get up physically once in conscious sleep by sitting up once I gained physical feeling without a break in consciousness. I will write one more short experience.

I was in conscious sleep, I spun my consciousness till the dream shards as I call them formed a picture. Like usual I push my consciousness forward, against it and into the picture. I was at a foot ball field andin the very first row in the stands. I knew exactly what it is I went to do as always I was alone. I created people in the stands for backround. I held the intention to create a body/vehical for my subconscious self to use to talk to me. A guy appeared in front of me. he looked extremely dazed. I kept asking who he was to make sure it wasnt just a regular person I created. Then the dazed look lifted off his face, now he looked at me like I was crazy.
He then said "You know nothing of being aware" my first reaction was to laugh since I was completely aware and in control so I said "I am the one who is aware here not you." He responded "I beg to differ" laughing to myself as I have never heard someone use that phrase. I watch him lift up his hand. A phone appears in h is hand and he hands it to me.  I put it up to my right ear as I always do in the physical. First I heard just staticy backround noises, then moans,groans, and mumbles, and then a few words and broken words, all in my voice. It took me a few seconds and I knew what was going on. I was listening to my body sleeping in the physical and mumble as I talked in this environment, I said "what the f..." and before I finished that sentence my subconscious self smiled,winked and walked away despite me yelling for him to stop, he had as much control as I did.

These last few topics are giong to be really short so dont stop reading just yet.

5.) Limitations of each conscious state

Naturally occurring: These dreams were already set in motion before you become conscious, so sometimes they can be chaotic and distractive. The distractions and scenerios that were set in motion can cause most lucid dreamers to lose their consciousness as fast as they got it.
A lot of times they end all too soon.

Induced environments: you are alone, no distractions, and as far as my experience goese there are seemingly no limitations.

6.) Understanding the conscious and subconscious selves.

There are many lessons/books/articles that say the subconscious is a by product of the consciousness. The same sources would suggest the supression of the subconscious and list meanst to accomplish it. I always feel bad that people will be ignorant enough to believe those authors' naivity and ignorance to the point they would follow through with surpession of the subconscious self, or supression of any kind. Heres my understanding of the conscious and subconscious selves. While we live in physical bodies, our conscious and subconscious selves act on our physical bodies by means of a link that is not known to me. However they act on our bodies seperately and at different times. The reason for this seperation of the conscious and subconscious selves is if they were "whole" physical lives wouldnt be possible like this. While we are physically awake our subconcious will observe our experiences and while we are sleeping we will observe our subconscious self' experiences, in bits and pieces that we call dreams here. Our subconscious self is half of the whole we will call ourselves when we physically expire.

7.) Mastery these conscious states

Once one can traverse from what I call conscious sleep, and get a feel for this state, he/she can practice going to and from environments. Once you can traverse from conscious sleep to the environments and back, you will be able to do this over and over again every attempt, unless too mentally fatigued. Some people dont really see the potential for this, this state (conscious sleep) is the gateway to projection and the environments I experience, possibly others that are not known to me. Think of it like a neutral state in which you can expand off of. Regular practice getting here should be attempted. Once successful try going from here to the environments and back to conscious sleep and so on etc.. Then once you get that down, go from conscious sleep to projection and once you get back project again, once you get that down there are limitless possiblities, and trust me with regular practice you will be able to no problem at all.

Notes: what I call the environments I may have called consciously induced lucid dreams or environments as for lack of a better term. They are neither projections nor lucid dreams. You will know what I mean by this when you experience it.

This article is property of the author. I give permission to download or send this article to anyone anywhere,but do not attempt to plagiarize this article in any way shape or form. Thanks, T.L.

[AntiGravity]

Awesome articles T.L.! Quite a bit of a read though [].
Loved it, but it was just a tad confusing for me[].
Very very helpful for me, thanks a lot!
Take care!

[Irreal]

T.L!

May I thank you for your brilliant articles.

I read Wake initiated lucid dreams just now and I'm impressed. So much information useful to me, it's dazzling[|)]

The concept of staying conscious while non-rem is huge. In non-rem are phases that you're brain is hardly active, nearing coma-like situations. It speaks for itself that conventional science thinks it's unlikely that you can stay aware if you're brains are nearly 'out'.

Do you sleep conscious every night? (I wonder..[] but I don't think so)

Again, thanks for this huge contribution! I appreciate it and I hope many others too.

Greetings

[T.L.]

No not everynight lol, there are nights I dont attempt because I am too mentally fatigued. The times I do attempt I succeed, everytime. When I do attempt I set my alarm for three hours, so far thats the longest I  will do it. The reason for such caution is because a few weird things have happened since I have been doing this, my memory has been affected but only for the better-remembering things years ago I had forgotten, and other things such as seeing things and people that are not physically real like hallucinations but something a little different.
I am just trying to be careful, I wouldnt want to make myself insane. Well I hope you enjoy those articles. The reason I started the first one was because after my experience I wanted to make sure I wouldnt forget one step, so I was just basically writing a manual for myself. I thought well I would want to see if others could verify certain aspects of what I experienced but would only be able to do so if they did exactly what I did so thats why I wrote that article. Hopefully people will be able to understand it.
Some things may confuse, if they do just pm your qestions. Take care everyone. Best wishes, T.L.

[Reemy]

T.L., I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to write and post these articles.  It was all very well written and quite informative.  I look forward to trying your techniques in the future.  

Namaste,
Reemy

[upstream]

Great material, thanks T. L.

If we discuss the same method, the main point is to being able to maintain lucid dreaming for hours through brief, intermittent NREM-sleep episodes of stage #2 sleep. The purpose of this practice is to (1) accumulate experiences of conscious dream states within as little time as possible, (2) to get a more plastic consciousness and being able to enter dreams at will.

This is an alternative for the trance method, because dreams can be used as springboard for real-time zone OBEs without etheric separation.

Here are some notes I had while reading your articles, T. L.:

#1.

quote:I noticed a few guys looking at a girl. I realized there were almost all guys with only a few girls. So I said "they need more women"

I like your attitude.


#2.

quote:What I accomplished was lucid dreaming about 3 hours non stop by will alone. It was so easy I could of done it for eight hours easily. No lapse in consciousness between dreams.

 Drive for deep sleep is sated, so wakefulness can be substitued by REM-sleep for hours. However, I'm unable to do that for more than 2-3 hours. Have you ever experienced 9 hours non-stop dreaming or you suppose you can do that?

Dreaming require more brain activity than wakefulness, so "sleep pressure" (NREM-sleep activity between REM-sleep episodes) will increase rapidly - threatening consciousness.

Structure of sleep-cycles:
[image]http://www.tc.gc.ca/tdc/publication/tp13960e/images/figure4.jpg[/image]


Idealised hypogram of a typical night:



As the nightly sleep progress, role of stage #3 & #4 sleep decrease.



A gentle introduction to sleep states & architecture:
http://www.holistic-online.com/Remedies/Sleep/sleep_stages-1-4NREM.htm
http://www.resmed.com.au/rc1006377917751.html


#3.
Your stage observations are very accurate and can be connected to those, which are used in sleep physiology.

The stage what you call "stage 3" is seem to identical to the sleep stage #2 of sleep physiology - this departure can be applied to all stage definitions.

As sleep progress from stage#1 to stage#4, cells in the cortex will start to fire more in sync causing EEG waveforms with greater amplitudos and shorter frequencies:

[image]http://classes.kumc.edu/cahe/respcared/cybercas/sleepapnea/osaelec.jpg[/image]

As you can see, the EEG during REM sleep is very similar to the waking EEG.

EEG is like observing a city by hearing, so they are lot's of differences between the two states, however they are more similarities between REM and waking than between REM and NREM sleep.

Wakefulness can be followed by REM at sleep onset (SOREM), but this rare, rather pathological (or intentional) in nature.

In fact, if need for deep sleep is reduced below a treshold, you're able to substitue very easily wakefulness with REM-sleep after awakening a dream.


#4.

quote:if you are 1/2 tired and 1/2 awake it will be just right and easy to do.

Yes, that's the way it is. The best architecture is 4.5/3h in my case.

Without deliberate pre-blancing of REM/stage#2 sleep by interrupting the sleep at the proper stage epic dreaming is something very difficult to accomplish. Not enough "sleep pressure" will result in premature awakening, while too much sleep pressure will cause long NREM sleep between dream-episodes and brain-bound consciousness required for this method can't be kept.

Because full consciousness can't be kept below stage#2 sleep, the consciousness field forced to dissociate from the brain by an etheric OBE accompaied by heavy vibrations. (I suppose that vibrations are the subjective feeling of synchronised activity in the somatosensory cortex.)

To reanimate the body in a controlled manner at inappropriote times from "outside" is almost as difficult as projecting from wakelfulness at intent.

Again, this method is designed for epic lucid dreaming.


#5.

quote:Even thought I was not in a dream I could spin around. It was more like I was spinning my awareness but when I spun I could feely myself spinning. I had no pre-conceived idea aslo what if anything would happen by doing this. To my surprise while I was spinning a shard appeard, it was a fragment like a really thin but long piece of a picture, a long rectangle with very small width. The more I spun the more shards appeared, connecting to previous shards. I could see a picture forming before my own eyes, a picture I was not making. I was only spinning.

Spinning is a great method to avoid wakefulness. As far as I know, the direction of the spinning is not important, or at least, there is no significant difference in effect between spinning clockwise or anticlockwise.

Alternating the direction of spinning sometimes can help to detach the dream body more easily. Spinning to the point when the dream reconstruct itself around the body is new method for me. After my dream body felt loosen, I use the feelings of spinning out or standing up all the time.


#6.
Sometimes it's more easy to stabilize the collapsed dream rather than allow the awareness of the sumberling body to emerge. It can be accomplished by grabbing any dream objects and rubbing it vigorously (or just pretending it). You could refocus the dream after awakening too. See my post @ http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12525

Nonetheless, the most important thing to do is: (1) trying to see a close object as it would be behind some kind of darkness or as it would be seen through dark-lensed glasses or the eyelids; and (2) at the same time trying to get a good "feeling" of the dream-environment around you by pretending that you're still dreaming albeit being unable to see.


#7.

quote:Now once it starts to fade out keep sayihng to yourself "ok the dream is fading" and note the things that are disappearing "there goes the wall, the white wall"..etc. This keeps your awareness/consciousness going while the dream fades and prevents it from being swept away as well.

I'm not sure about the internal dialogue thing. In fact, if not enough sleep pressure to avoid waking up, too much thinking in the fade-out stage will awake you before spinning has any effect.

My consciousness remain intact and continous all the time as I fading out - even without any internal dialogue.

However, supressing the internal dialogue in dreaming even can be dangerous, because it will lower brain activity.

I tend to supress dialogue only to temper the over-interpretation of possibly energetic perceptions when trying to hit the AP stage(albeit short commands are still required to do that).


#8.

quote:After all is said and done you will be by yourself in the blackness. Your body awareness will kick in and you will feel the vibrations. This state once again is normal non rem, non dreaming sleep only you managed to smuggle your consciousness with you.

Vibrations are felt only in stage#4 (stage#3?). If there is not enough sleep pressure, fading of the dream will be followed by more superficial sleeping without any vibrations and complete awakening will become almost inevitable.

quote:Another thing is dont use headphones or listen to hemi-sync audio while trying my methods in this article and dont use ear plugs as you will miss natural sounds that occur in your room or house or outside that might trigger the electrocution sensation that helps in the whole process I explained here.

I have no idea what you meant by electrocution. Can you describe this state and the associated feelings? My signs: fluctuation of the internal and external noises below T=2 sec (external noises fade out, internal noise/humming fade in and burst into brief, hallucnated noises, words). Again, this require moderate sleep pressure.


#9.

quote:While some may devise ways of control in the lucid dreams that result in a longer lucid dream, they never once thought they have another option. They think the lengths of their lucid dreams are only limited to the lengths of their rem sleep cycles. They think that when a rem cycle ends it is the end of their lucid dream and when the dream fades away their consciousness is swept away also. While the last statement is true it doesnt mean there arent other options.

You may ask "why if what you say is true and it works, are you taking your time to tell others rather than keeping this to yourself?" I can tell you its not to profit heh. Well the reason is because I am not selfish what so ever. I iwsh to help others and by doing so maybe it will result in more research to be done on aspects of sleep and other experiences as well, such as astral projection. I want others to have access to their spiritual selves. When one hears spiritual they think of religion. Those two have nothing in common.

So true.

This method is very important, many people should practice it. Also, I would like encourage all of you who understand the significance of this method, to make links to this page when it possible. Thanks.


Again, my questions are:
1. Have you ever experienced more than 3 hours dreaming or you just suppose we can do that?
2. Do you do something with your attention to trigger the dream-reconstruction? Looking upward or something?
3. What's this noise-induced electrocution all about? Can you elaborate your description?


Thanks for your reply:

[image]http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/aso/databank/entries/images/b5penf01tg01.jpeg[/image]

>>> upstream

[T.L.]

I had a few comments for some things you said, upstream. I hope I can clarify some things.

"Not enough "sleep pressure" will result in premature awakening, while too much sleep pressure will cause long NREM sleep between dream-episodes and brain-bound consciousness required for this method can't be kept"

Yes its true a lot of people awake physically. So perhaps I didnt get the point across that its a delicate process, too much thinking can kick you out of it (once the dream is fading)and wake the person up. You really have to be perceptive while this is going on to get past the fading part consciously, once its fully faded this is about where people either already lost consciousness are do lose consciousness resulting in nrem sleep for a long period of time. I have never had problems with either occuring, I do the same thing I did the first time and it always works perfectly for me, for others well they can change/tweak it a little to suit their needs. The articles are pretty much a bare-bone construction of what I do and what I think, you can change anything to your liking or needs.


"I'm not sure about the internal dialogue thing. In fact, if not enough sleep pressure to avoid waking up, too much thinking in the fade-out stage will awake you before spinning has any effect."

Well once again the point is to go about it easily and not force anything in this state by will, you want it to fade naturally like it would normally. I spin my consciousness when in nrem sleep, so the point I was making was to get to nrem sleep before spinning and at least sustain it for a few seconds, to stabalize it so you wont wake up will trying to spin your consciousness.

"My consciousness remain intact and continous all the time as I fading out - even without any internal dialogue."

Some are different, but do you mean you kept consciousness even after the dream was completely faded, or you lost it after it faded but kept it during the fading?

Again, my questions are:
1. Have you ever experienced more than 3 hours dreaming or you just suppose we can do that?
2. Do you do something with your attention to trigger the dream-reconstruction? Looking upward or something?
3. What's this noise-induced electrocution all about? Can you elaborate your description?

1.) After I wrote the article yes. During the first few days after I wrote the article, no because I didnt want to take a risk of any kind of mental side effect lol. Not having many people speak about what I experienced I didnt want to take a chance, since the first few experiences I have had some side effects, some really good and some very annoying. Afterwards, yes I went from 3 hours to 4 hours and two times tried 5 hours, all straight no lapse in consciousness with the exception of the initial black out I have that occurs before the whole process starts.

2.) Well I wouldn't get caught up in calling what this article explains as regular dreams or regular lucid dreams. The physicality is a little more so in this state than in physical waking life. Everything feels so concrete and with some things better than in physical life. However this wont apply depending on intent like if you want to pass through a wall or fly, but even those have some physical feelings. I call them induced lucid dreams in the article to keep a scientific mind about the whole thing and try not to be biased. Since its neither projection nor regular lucid dream it feels something in between these states. But I dont want to get caught up in interpretation which is why I strayed from completely labeling everything like so many people do.
Anyway sorry, well actually the only thing I do consciously is spin my consciousness and observe the sections of the picture that are forming out of the darkness, I dont look up or down because its perfectly in my line of sight, even while spinning all the sections stayed in front of my viewing area. After that I consciously push my consciousness forwards, against the resulting picture, and through it. Then once I do that its all around me and it was like it never was only in front of me, its a perfect environment.

3.) As always of course. Well this occurs when  you are still physically awake, in this state you can still move your body (physical) at will no problem. There comes a state at least for me and the others who I have walked through doing this, a time when physical (real) sounds trigger a sort of reflex, not to mention a seemingly physical impact. Although the impact in itself is not physical its consistent and as real as the physical. Let me explain myself, let say I am laying down and a sound occurs from the direction of my feet and I hear a click of my heater, the physical impact feeling, and the fuzzy/electric type of shocking feeling will start at my feet and work its way up to my head about a split second after the sound happens. If the sound happens from behind me from the direction of the head, the feeling will start at the head and work its way down in again about a split second. So you will hear the physical sound and feel its affects from a split second - half second from the time you had heard it, kind of like ripples in a pond but faster.
Now for the consistent part, well as I said everytime I am in this state and a click of the heater, or perhaps my fridge kicks on same thing will occur each and everytime. Not to mention even if I am wearing ear plugs and a sound occurs and I dont hear it, it still triggers the same thing, physical impact/electric shock sensation. Its like feeling sound in its original form or whatever. Its not just being sensitive or trying to perceive these things that make them apparent to the person, I think perhaps part of you is already partly out at this state and that is what perceives and feels these things and by some freak of nature thing you can actually feel this without trying to. The first time it happened to me was when I was first working torwards projection over 5 months ago.
Normally at the state I was in I would be sleeping or went into sleep much faster and bypassed that state in which this does occur. Once I actively worked torwards slowing the sleeping process down I started immediately feeling things of this nature. At first I thought it might of been an isolated thing and it was just me that could feel this. Then later when I finished astral dynamics (sorry for naming a title)Robert Bruce noted theres a state he went through that make real sounds seem like they impact you physically. Right then I was happy to hear someone else has the same thing happen.
Once I distributed this article to some friends and the ones I helped along regardless started to feel this too. The consistency alone is surprising, whether you hear it or not (the physical sound) the sensations will still be the same, and the direction of the sound also changes where these sensations start at. After a few clicks of the heater (which happens a lot since I have this old heater/register when the metal heats up or cools down it starts to click)I will get a really strong shocking feeling with this wave of wind type of feel (the physical feeling impact) and the shocking feeling will stay after the impact feeling passes, and then this intensifies and feels almost like you are being electrocuted except without the pain. Also at times when a sound occurs physically, and you get that impact feeling sometimes sinking sensations occur with it, sometimes not always it depends.

The thing that gets me in the environments I go to is also the consistency of the experience. I will be alone each and everytime, There wont be extra things around and no people. Just me, the environment and thats it, until you create otherwise.

I hope that was a good enough description for you upstream, I didnt cut any corners in explaination, as you can tell =-) I am glad you noticed the potential for such a practice as what I describe since the nrem sleep state when entered consciously is like a fork in the road, or a four way interesection and you can take anyway route you want from there, projection,the environments I describe and possibly other unknown states.
I kept an unbiased approach so that we wouldnt get hung up on interpretation and the sort, so its almost always good to take that approch and that is why I appreciate you mapping the whole thing out and taking the time to post the graphs, and compare them. It's really good, but before you think they are completely dreams you should try to go through several of these environments in one attempt and then see exactly how it feels and how real it all really seems. I really liked your approach in the post, very respectable. Thanks for your input and reply. Best wishes, T.L.

[BlackBox]

If you are in a typical 'trance-relaxed-state' (farthest I've gone), perhaps with moderate vibrations sweeping through your body, what effect does the spinning visualization have?

Can it (spinning) alone lead you to some interesting effects?

Appreciate all your thoughts T.L. I'm glad Phong directed me to your article(s).

[Reemy]

T.L., I wanted to let you know about a measure of success I've had from implementing your techniques outlined in these articles.

First I want to mention that I have been able to successfully have lucid dreams for years and have used the spinning method in the past for prolonging them (though never knowingly going past REM in doing so.)  Honestly, when I read your article I was less interested in the lucid dream aspect of it as I was in maintaining awareness in the non-REM cycles themselves.  You see, I'm new to OBEs and I was looking for a more consistent method to reach a state of vibrations.  I mention this because my intention when attempting this was not to spin and continue lucid dreaming when the non-REM stage vibrations came (which would be more valuable to your research) but simply to exit my body.

Everything went according to plan.  I maintained my awareness past the hypnogogic stage, felt the pulsations, blacked out for a bit, and came to in-dream.  After the dream cycle I felt a sinking effect and then blackness.  I was fully aware, I had a complete sense of my body, and I had a feeling in my head and stomach that told me the vibrations were imminent.  I even said to myself, "T.L. was right about the nature of the non-REM phase."  The vibrations came on strong and I was able to separate from my body easily.  This was only my third conscious OBE and it was the easiest, clearest, and longest to date.  It would have lasted longer had it not be for a poorly timed ringing telephone.  I have to thank you again for posting your articles as it has helped me so much in this respect.

I will continue working with this.  Once I get past this initial need to refine my out-of-body process I will work on the effort to return to the lucid dream state in non-REM.  I'll be happy to report to you any progress I have with that.

Namaste,
Reemy

[upstream]

BlackBox...

quote:If you are in a typical 'trance-relaxed-state' (farthest I've gone), perhaps with moderate vibrations sweeping through your body, what effect does the spinning visualization have?

It depends on what you call typical trance-relaxed-state. I suspect it is not enough - your body must be asleep. You'll may loose your consciousness before you hit the sufficient stage to spin then found yourself wide awake again. All the sleepiness of the stage#2 brain-bound consciousness will be gone.

To reach that state, you should deepen your sleep by circulating etheric substance around you and putting pressure on your epiphysis (?).

First, move your attention to the periphery of your energy body and try to circulate something gaseous matter around you. Gradually, move the focus closer to your body and accelerate the spin of the vortex around the height of your neck. Repeat the sweep many times. This practice will further relax you by sucking bioplasm out of your muscles. In this stage there is no double to spin.

To detach the double you have to be asleep. To do that, you should put a "pressure" inside your head while you breath out inertly after a deep intake and short holding of breath. You should do it for many times in row with rests and/or vortex-like circulation inbetween them.

I suppose the pressure will force the epiphysis to release its melatonin pool which will knock you out, by forcing stage#3 sleep. At that point brain-bound consciousness can't be kept and your field of consciousness forced to detach being interpreted as a double.

[Irreal]

I guess my biggest question is...

could 100%(or to that extent) of the awareness be intact throughout all stages of sleeping?

Many years ago, I would fall asleep without any weird feelings, hallucinations, nothing. Just feeling tired, scratch nose, bam, away I am. Wake up and remember nothing.

Now I lie in my bed twitching sometimes and experiences weird excrement and feeling my body paralyzed. It just became a habit of staying a aware while falling asleep. I fall 'asleep'(my awareness) much later now in the process... but I don't understand. What is sleeping?!

Many people say: you lose conscious, but I'm like undergoing all sorts of weird excrement attributed to sleep with my conciousness somewhat intact. I guess I think.. with 'training' this conscious can be intact troughout the night(ie. just undergo dreams and nrem sleep, observing it). Or would that be a wrong assumption? Why?

[BlackBox]

upstream, I think my computer is partially posessed by a spirit or demon or something because I've typed out two long responses and both times my mouse goes nuts and the computer freezes. It usually happens when I have something else to do, like go to practice my Qigong stretches...that might sound crazy, but ah well. I'm so frustrated from having lost my last posts. Anyways.

I wont go into the same detail again since I don't want to flip out from the mouse going postal again. I was basically saying how, at first, I would get into trance by focussing on my breathing-regulation, as to dilate the blood vessels in my body, slow down the brain hertz per second in my brain, and therefore transition my state of mind to deep alpha and perhaps light theta. But last night after reading TL's post, it didn't really speak about breathing-regulation, so I didn't do it, and nothing particularly evident occured last night because of it. So I guess breathing-regulation is necessary for the first few stages...By your post, I think it's clear I'm doing some things wrong. I've kind of had the thought in the back of my head that I need to open up my 3rd eye before being able to comfortably move through such states.

quote:To reach that state, you should deepen your sleep by circulating etheric substance around you and putting pressure on your epiphysis (?).

epiphysis? Even from the online definition, I'm not sure how I can focus pressure on it. Can you elaborate? Actually, could you elaborate a little more on this entire sentence? Do I just do this by visualizing the bioelectric field (aura) around me circulating? Feel it, like the NEW technique, or visualize, or both?

quote:First, move your attention to the periphery of your energy body and try to circulate something gaseous matter around you. Gradually, move the focus closer to your body and accelerate the spin of the vortex around the height of your neck. Repeat the sweep many times. This practice will further relax you by sucking bioplasm out of your muscles. In this stage there is no double to spin.

I'll do my best, but this sounds kind of new to me. As if, only NOW does someone actually give some solid step-by-steps to enter the state(s). My comments in my last paragraph still stand.

quote:To detach the double you have to be asleep. To do that, you should put a "pressure" inside your head while you breath out inertly after a deep intake and short holding of breath. You should do it for many times in row with rests and/or vortex-like circulation inbetween them.

Sometimes I am compelled to push my eyes upwards intensely. This creates pressure inside my head, I would suppose. Besides for that, I'm not really sure on what exactly to do. Perhaps tonight I'll just focus on your upper-paragraphs of the energy circulating around me after/while doing the breathing-regulation.

quote:I suppose the pressure will force the epiphysis to release its melatonin pool which will knock you out, by forcing stage#3 sleep. At that point brain-bound consciousness can't be kept and your field of consciousness forced to detach being interpreted as a double.

Thanks for the info. You've basically just summed up everything one has to do to OBE properly. I only 'beg' for some elaboration on the above paragraphs.

Should I imagine the energy circulating from above towards my feet and from below towards my head?

Thanks again upstream.

[upstream]

Hello T.L.!

quote:I spin my consciousness when in nrem sleep, so the point I was making was to get to nrem sleep before spinning....

Yes, of course. We spin our consciousnes in NREM sleep (between REM-episodes). I hope people who read this will understand the differencies between "spinning in dream" (popularized by LaBerge) and "spinning in the bed" without visuals. However, you can make a seameless spinning of the two types by a weird manoeuvre designed to download astral memories. Just read my writings @ http://www.cezyl.com/OBEs/upstream.htm, thanks for the edit, Cezyl.

quote:I spin my consciousness when in nrem sleep, so the point I was making was to get to nrem sleep before spinning and at least sustain it for a few seconds, to stabalize it so you wont wake up will trying to spin your consciousness.

It makes sense for me, that first I have to stabilize NREM-sleep and spinning afterwards. But how you I suppose to stabilize superficial NREM sleep when I find myself wild awake and nothing to spin? Don't forget to answer this question.

Anyway, our techniques are obviously not the same, so we can learn from each other. The main differencies are summarised below:

1. You're able to dream consciously for 5+ hours / I'm only able to do it for 1-3 hour
2. You don't force anything to happen / I desperately hold on to the last scene then force separation after the exteriorised state collapsed
3. You spin until a dream reconstruct itself / In 90% of the cases I spin out of alingment or detach my double, or in 10% I'll pretend myself back to the last environment I've seen

I'm aware of 4 types of spinning: 1. liquid-like dense movement of vortex around my body but no sense of spinning double; 2. sensing two body at the same time: the laying physical one and a spinning subtle one; 3. sense of abrupt ~180-degrees spinning motions in one direction again and again to detach the double; 4. sensing the spinning body without the lying physical

Because you're spinning is only for reenter dreaming, you should be more talented in it than me. Extrapolated from my experiences dreaming for 5 hours required app. 10-50 reconstruction. It seems you're able to spin after each REM-sleep you spent conscious. Is it true in your case? Can you describe in the above categories how you do that?

quote:Well once again the point is to go about it easily and not force anything in this state by will, you want it to fade naturally like it would normally.

As I said before, this is not my case. I often feel short-term pull back at the first 1-2 separation, then reseparations become more and more easily accomplished as my consciousness shift away from the etheric double. I gave a brief description of this process @ http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12330&whichpage=2, last post 2nd point.

Without deliberate effort to get back to RTZ, the spectrum of projection will narrow around F22 by each of reseparation. After 2-4 episodes the reseparation process become more symbolic, and I'll be able to phase back the collapsed dream state without detach any subtle body. Also, the episodes will stabilize and tend to become longer, presumably because sleep pressure has been increased by elongated REM-sleep. After 5-10 reseparations energy to sustain regular dreams getting very low. Problems with vision, especially with brightness sign that game is almost over. I feel literally tired myself in my dream body. If I'm unable to break out from the hallucinations as soon as possible and shutting down my tired brain by projecting far above the RTZ I will lost my consciousness in the next interseparational stage.

quote:do you mean you kept consciousness even after the dream was completely faded, or you lost it after it faded but kept it during the fading?

There is no lapse in my consciousness at all. It's a seameless process. How, otherwise, would it be possible to doing elaborate manoveurs required for reseparation / dream reconstruction?  I have to note that real astral projetions don't fade completely, there is always a residual awareness of the "place" before you recollect your consciousness in your projector body by spinning.

Your description about the sense of electrocution was good enough indeed, but I still haven't any idea what you mean. I hope your description open the way to perceive it for myself. Thanks.

Don't worry, I do the version of 2-3h dreaming by years without getting more aberration I already have. Can you describe the feelings you get after waking up from more than 3 hours of dreaming?

About interpretation. You have no ways other than interpret your experiences, otherwise no progress is possible. Actually, our mind build to do that automaticly to save us from the pressure of unknown. What you have described in your 2nd article is interpretation. You assume, that people of that type dream should act like they did and indeed they satisfied your belief accordingly. The only possibility is to update our belief system on fly, keeping it as plastic as possible.

quote:I appreciate you mapping the whole thing out and taking the time to post the graphs, and compare them.

I've hoped you will like it. I wrote it, because most people need explanations to belief in an impossible practice. Also, I really want to belive your epic dreaming. Please, convice me.

quote:before you think they are completely dreams you should try to go through several of these environments in one attempt and then see exactly how it feels and how real it all really seems.

To simply put, they seems not real at all times. They are dozens of dreaming/projecting. I have notes from app. 500 AP/OBE, half of them is launched from states we discussed so far. I'm glad to report, that there are states more real than I ever hoped.

[upstream]

BlackBox, I'll try to reply today, GMT.

[upstream]

Hello, BlackBox

quote:...last night after reading TL's post, it didn't really speak about breathing-regulation, so I didn't do it, and nothing particularly evident occured last night because of it.

You couldn't get started non-stop dreaming at regular bed-time, because your brain needs deep sleep. To be successfull with this method, interrupting your sleep at the proper stage is absolute necessary, which is after app. 4.5-6h. Also, it seems to me that more than one hour wakefulness is very beneficial before the attempt. The following should be regarded as side-note on trance, hopefully answer of your questions, so it is not connected to the method we discussed with T.L.

quote:So I guess breathing-regulation is necessary for the first few stages...

For me, absolutely. Perhaps breath-regulation is more important than relaxation, because proper breathing even will result in deep relaxation without soing anything else. The activity of neurons associated with breathing spread from the medulla to the entire brain serving a phasic stimulation. To prove that, you can observe the birth of spontan toughts in deep silence. The possibility of spontan toughts breaking into your consciousness will increase with every breath you take in.

quote:By your post, I think it's clear I'm doing some things wrong.

You couldn't know that by a post. Don't change your proved methods, just try and incorporate new ideas.

quote:

quote:To reach that state, you should deepen your sleep by circulating etheric substance around you and putting pressure on your epiphysis (?).

epiphysis? Even from the online definition, I'm not sure how I can focus pressure on it. Can you elaborate? Actually, could you elaborate a little more on this entire sentence?

The state I was talking about is in which you're able to spin your double. After you could spin it separation is very easy.

You can get this separational state from moderate trance. You can reach moderate trance by firmly affirm yourself just before regular bedtime to don't move after you'll wake up on your back. If you can't get asleep on your back, interrupt your sleep to do that. Also, you can reach deeper states by self-induced trance preferably after ~10h wakefulness, app. 3-4 hours before regular bedtime.

Basically, in this "moderate trance state" you feel yourself being reduced into your head. Ideally, you just awakened from uncosciousness so superfluous sleep pressure is reduced by deep sleep. This approach serve as a puffer. Your body is deeply relaxed, ther are no wandering tension, itch or any distraction. Your mind is resonably clear, but if you would turn on your side, you'll asleep whitin seconds. You could feel a deep urge to move thinking you've failed. Now, don't move at all.

From this state you're able to reach a deeper one by emptiing your mind. Focusing on your breathing process and counting breaths to a treshold you've decided before will help. This is the last stage before separation. You have to put the pressure on and it will zap you into the preseparational stage.

quote:Sometimes I am compelled to push my eyes upwards intensely. This creates pressure inside my head, I would suppose.

That's it. If you breath out at the same time (like the corpse of someone who just died), you could feel a slipping sensation, like zooming inward. It is like you're shrinking inside, or collect your consciousness into a point located in your head. Sometimes you'll feel moving upward to a point above your head accompained by pressures in your groin area and in your head at the same time.

Looking upward will help. It's interest to note, that in deep sleep the eyeballs are turn upwards. I only hypothesize that epiphysis is the point you make the pressure on by modulating the photon field of the third verticle by thalamocortical feedback. An interesting article: http://light.simanonok.com/

In most cases you should apply many pressure in row. You may feel your blood pressure and hearth rate increasing at each pressure you make, and some hindrance or inability to it without rest. You have to rest inbetween them - an appropriate time to focusing on breath and doing the vortex.

quote:Should I imagine the energy circulating from above towards my feet and from below towards my head?

I don't know. Perhaps it's a good idea. However, I observed that paralysis can be broke by lowering the focus on your body. By this time the projection of the center of your consciousness should above the diaphragm. I suggest you imagine yourself in a tornado with epicenter at the height of your neck.

quote:Feel it, like the NEW technique, or visualize, or both?

Vortex is like imagination, spinning is real. You'll see, that's not a clear and cut state, because by that your brain-bound consciousness is reached its limit, the haziest state you're able to operate in being still bounded by your brain. The information representing your personality is ready to spead onto your bioplasmic field. If you suceeded, your awareness become crystal clear again, and you're able to separate.

[BlackBox]

Thanks upstream.

My intention is to achieve OBE/AP through the method of when going to bed, getting into trance state, focusing on some of the things you have said, and continue to do so until it works. I don't think the waking up from deep-sleep 4-5 hours (heard the method before in regards to lucid dreaming) technique is for me, or rather I don't resonate with it.

Thanks for all your comments. Much appreciated. []

[T.L.]

(Upstream) "It makes sense for me, that first I have to stabilize NREM-sleep and spinning afterwards. But how you I suppose to stabilize superficial NREM sleep when I find myself wild awake and nothing to spin? Don't forget to answer this question."

Well if you progress into nrem too fast you will wake up physically. Now if you are talking about being conscious in nrem sleep and you are in complete darkness and you notice you cant see and you cant perceive any things of yourself like a body or whatever, this is what happens to me. I will be in complete darkness when in nrem and I just think about spinning to the right and it does so and I feel sensations then the picture comes, or from here just project.

As I am not assuming what I go through is exactly what you go through I understand some of what I say makes no sense to you or does not apply to you. That is why I said just change whatever to suit your needs. As for the electrocution/shocking feeling well that happens to me before I even start to fall asleep consciously, its right before the hypnagogic imagery and sometimes overlaps that state.

Well I hope it was of help to you.

(Reemy) I am glad you had success. Once in nrem consciously isn't it so much easier to start the seperation. I find if I seperate one part it just goes on its own accord, I have to forcefully focus on stopping the seperation since I didnt dive into projection yet because I was still experimenting with the other things I was working on. Having finished that I am going to fully seperate either today in a few minutes, but I may just try tomorrow night instead since I feel so mentally fatigued from work.
Perhaps once you can get to nrem with ease, which it will be a lot easier after the first time we can do a joint experiement while projecting to validate them. If you want to just email me and we can talk about it. Well best wishes to everyone, T.L.

[upstream]

T.L.

quote:Now if you are talking about being conscious in nrem sleep and you are in complete darkness and you notice you cant see and you cant perceive any things of yourself like a body or whatever, this is what happens to me.

I just understand, that you spin not in your bed, but in the void, before regain awareness of your sleeping body. As LaBerge would say, you have an "unusually active REM system." The non-stop dreaming method is perfectly suit for you.

People lucky enough to fall into this category may find this method extremely useful. Unfortunately, I'm not belong to those lucky ones. It seems to me that my brain is unable to stay in dream lands for more than I've been experienced so far.

from http://www.lucidity.com/EWLD6.txt

PREVENTING PREMATURE AWAKENING

Informally experimenting in their beds at home, lucid dreamers have discovered various ways of remaining in the dream state when threatened by early awakening. All the techniques involve some form of dream action which is carried out as soon as the visual part of the dream begins to fade. Linda Magallon, editor and publisher of the Dream Network Bulletin, and an intrepid explorer of lucid dreams, has described how she prevents herself from waking up by concentrating on the senses other than vision, such as hearing and touch. She reports that all of the following activities have successfully prevented awakenings from visually faded dreams: listening to voices, music, or her breathing; beginning or continuing a conversation; rubbing or opening her (dream) eyes; touching her dream hands and face; touching objects such as a pair of glasses, a hair brush, or the edge of mirror; being touched; and flying. [1] These activities all have something in common with the Spinning Technique described below. They are based on the idea of loading the perceptual system so it cannot change its focus from the dream world to the waking world. As long as you are actively and perceptually engaged with the dream world, you are less likely to make the transition to the waking state. Magallon may be a dreamer with an unusually active REM system; it may be that she has little trouble staying asleep once she is in REM. However, many others are light sleepers who find it difficult to remain in lucid dreams for long periods of time. These people need more powerful techniques to help them stay in their lucid dreams.


from http://www.consciousdreaming.com/lucid-dreaming/lucid-dream-tips.htm

I have also found that one of the most common things that ends lucid dreams is having your visuals go out on you. You could accidentally fly into a wall or building or sometimes just be going too fast for the dreamscape to remain stable. As a result, you will not be able to see anymore. Sometimes, it happens spontaneously especially if your dreamscape is n'o stable. If your visuals do go out on you, then you often will find yourself in a black void much like a cave or a womb. If you find that you have lost your visuals, you may verbally intend more visuals to appear which sometimes works or you can just wait it out. Just DON'T GIVE UP AND DECIDE TO WAKE UP! Hold onto your lucidity and stare into the blackness. Eventually, a whole new dreamscape will appear. Once the dreamscape appears you will already be standing in it and you will be lucid or sometimes you may even have to consciously step into the dreamscape.

This technique has helped me on countless occasions. It has allowed me to reenter new LDs sometimes over and over again whenever my visuals "blow out". This method of waiting it in "Limbo-Land" for new visuals to appear will really come in handy once you become better acquainted with the dream realm. You can use this visionless void to prolong your lucidity exploring as long as you do not wake up from the dream.. I usually find that I can successfully use this reentry technique around seven times or more in one night. Depending on how long the dream is and how well I am maintaining my lucidity, I usually wake myself from the LD after the seventh reentry from Limbo-Land. I find that any more than seven reentries and I may slip back into a nonlucid dream unintentionally fogging my overall dream recall.


from http://www.consciousdreaming.com/lucid-dreaming/astral-projection-and-out-of-body-experiences.htm

I get to a point where I am SO lucid that I can just intend or verbally command or even just think "FIND THE PHYSICAL BODY BUT DON'T GET TRAPPED INTO IT. PREPARE FOR AN OUT OF BODY EXPERIENCE!!!" After practicing this for a while, I don't have to say the whole thing anymore, but it helped in the beginning. Now, I can just get to a sufficiently heightened level of lucidity and then just verbally say "IT'S TIME FOR AN O.B.E.!!"

If successful at this point, I'll be more conscious of my actual body which before hand I'm not at all. Before I'm more in tune with my dreambody if any body at all, whereas now I'm conscious of my physical yetstill in an altered state of mind. It's like the interim phase between a series of lucid dreams where there are no visuals, you're conscious you're dreaming and of your body lying in bed but you just wait it out in the black void until some visuals start to form into a new dreamscape which you enter into the next lucid dream cycle.

Well I am digressing, it seems almost like a slight bilocation of awareness, being aware you're observing this from somewhere/place beyond ties of the body and yet you're also slightly conscious of feeling your body but in a strange loose energetic way. So if I can get to this point, I will wind up being in a state of bilocation and my physical body will be in the vibrational state.

[T.L.]

(upstream)"I just understand, that you spin not in your bed, but in the void, before regain awareness of your sleeping body. As LaBerge would say, you have an "unusually active REM system." The non-stop dreaming method is perfectly suit for you"

Actually I gain physical body awareness in nrem right off the bat, before I do anything. This is the fragile state in which if you pay attention to the physical body awareness you will gain physical feeling of the body instead of just being aware of the position you will start to gain the feeling of numbness go beyond that and you will feel your body physically and it is awaken from that point on. That is why treading carefully is what I do, ignore the body awareness and continue with what I was doing after I know my body will not try to awaken.
I think its not a good idea to toss everything into categories, without keeping in mind there are still unknowns out there. If everyone did this then we wouldn't know about projections right now we would still be convinced by others they were lucid dreams. I call them lucid dreams/dreamscapes for lack of a better term. In actuality I know its not a lucid dream, and there is actually no term for what I experience. Its not a dream, not a projection, its something completely different,  or perhaps a mix of both, or perhaps creating physical places in the non physical. Lets not get hung up on guessing what these places are and what state it is when you experience going into them. Instead I would like those that have will power and can think on their own to give what I mention a try.
So that they may experience and be able to relate to other people what they experience. This is the reason I didnt want to post my article on a regular forum, I wanted to post it in forums like this as an article and not an any active topic. The reason is because I would have people arguing with me as to what they are with only skimming what I have wrote instead of reading it completely through, and also have people who have read but not experienced it or think they have. No point in arguing or assuming anything, just experience and be all the more understanding for it. Reemy has the right idea, its a good attitude to have. Have no pre-conceived notion as to what will happen, and not take guesses as to what it is, just try and be enthusiastic then experience for ones self. Best wishes, T.L.

[upstream]

Hello T.L.!

Thanks for your reply.

quote:if you are talking about being conscious in nrem sleep and you are in complete darkness and you notice you cant see and you cant perceive any things of yourself like a body or whatever, this is what happens to me

I'm confused, because your latest post seems to contradict the above sentence:

quote:Actually I gain physical body awareness in nrem right off the bat, before I do anything.

Before what? The spinning for example? Can you explain it more fully?

quote:...if you pay attention to the physical body awareness you will gain physical feeling of the body instead of just being aware of the position you will start to gain the feeling of numbness go beyond that and you will feel your body physically and it is awaken from that point on. That is why treading carefully is what I do...

We can't disregard the strong input come from the physical body at times when there is not enough stimuli from an independent source. Where does your attention focused on to stabilize NREM?

quote:I think its not a good idea to toss everything into categories, without keeping in mind there are still unknowns out there.

Totally agreed. But unfortunately, all we do is making categories then put things into them. For example, considering the state of spinning, we have been discussing it as NREM sleep all along, without having the knowledge of its exact nature.

quote:I didnt want to post my article on a regular forum, I wanted to post it in forums like this as an article and not an any active topic.

The damage is already done. Sorry for that. I hope people will find this thread useful.

quote:Reemy has the right idea, its a good attitude to have. Have no pre-conceived notion as to what will happen, and not take guesses as to what it is, just try and be enthusiastic then experience for ones self.

Yes, thats the way it is. Reemy should have no preconceptions because he have not experienced this state before. I have been experiencing similar states for years, so I'm able to make generalisations based on the patterns I've observed. Moreover, my duty is to have some conceptions about all of this.

However, I still not able to dream like you do, so I try to mimic your method the best I can. If someone is able to understand the significance of this method, you should be one of them, because you know that years can be spared by this method alone.

So, I would like you to describe your sleep architecture when doing this method, and your regular sleep habits if you have any.

Thanks again,

>>> upstream

[T.L.]

"if you are talking about being conscious in nrem sleep and you are in complete darkness and you notice you cant see and you cant perceive any things of yourself like a body or whatever"

What I meant by this is that in nrem you are in complete darkness, you arent dreaming, you are more like thought energy in darkness. Since you are not dreaming you dont have a dream body. To spin from here you just think about spinning and you will.

quote:
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Actually I gain physical body awareness in nrem right off the bat, before I do anything.
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"Before what? The spinning for example? Can you explain it more fully?"

How is this confusing, I gain physical body awareness before I do anything, and anything would include spinning. As soon as I enter nrem sleep I feel my physical eyes slow to a stop and I feel the position my physical body is in.

"We can't disregard the strong input come from the physical body at times when there is not enough stimuli from an independent source. Where does your attention focused on to stabilize NREM?"

The reason it is so easy to project and do other things from nrem is because the lack of physical stimuli or any other kind. There will be pre obe symptoms but thats also what you want. Now if you are doing what I am and want to stabilize this state before doing anything, what I do is block out what I am feeling and ignore it. Where is my attention? My attention isnt anywhere except for looking at the darkness. Other than that I am not thinking of anything at all.

"Totally agreed. But unfortunately, all we do is making categories then put things into them. For example, considering the state of spinning, we have been discussing it as NREM sleep all along, without having the knowledge of its exact nature."

How do I know it is nrem sleep? Well when I enter this state I am not dreaming for one, secondly I feel my physical eyes slow to a stop and the whole time in here they arent moving. Its not exactly nrem sleep now since we are here consciously. So its nrem sleep + consciousness.

My sleeping habits lol. Well normally I sleep when I am tired. Sometimes I have sleeping habits of an insomniac, and at other times I sleep in excess of 12 hours. Now that I work second shift I go to sleep around 3 or 4am since I am online at this time talking to people. Then I will wake up around 2-2:30pm get ready for work then be at work at 3.

It seems to me you are confusing things a little bit, and maybe over thinking the whole thing. I know it seems stupid saying that, because its not a bad thing to over think something through. Just instead of questioning yourself or whatever you are doing, just go and do it, or try to attempt it. I have tried projection so many times before I had any success with what I am doing now, and all of my failures stemmed from thinking too much about what I was doing while I was doing it. Also the lack of understanding. But you already understand so much about the sleep cycle and probably your own unique sleeping cycle. I knew very little about mine and very little about the general sleep cycle. All I had to understand to succeed was the basics of what I was trying to do then success came.

Since you already seem like you have already accomplished projection and lucid dreams, I dont see what your problem is. You shouldnt have too many problems going from what you experience  to another experience. If that makes sense to you. A few people I have talked to succeeded with this, and some of these people never experienced a lucid dream or projection in their life, at least that they know of anyway. I am sure I didnt answer all of your questions though, so if I missed anything just let me know. Best wishes, T.L.

[SpectralDragon]

Ahh, I do apoligize T.L., I did say I would comment here.

now, I am not really that good with dreams, but one time it looked as if you were projecting into a "realm between realms" I speak of the black and dark place you were in. now of course I could be wrong, I am after all not the one who was dreaming.

Have you tried projecting during one of these? it should be immensely easier to do. (sorry if someone asked this already didn't have time to read all the replies)

[Reemy]

T.L. wrote

quote:Once in nrem consciously isn't it so much easier to start the seperation.

This was absolutely what I found.  Separation was completely effortless.  The vibrations came on strong and quick, and in no time I was able to float up and then get in an upright position.  This was surprising as with my prior efforts (using different techniques) I was still having difficulty with out-of-body movement.

T.L. wrote

quote:Perhaps once you can get to nrem with ease, which it will be a lot easier after the first time we can do a joint experiement while projecting to validate them.

I will be in touch with you about this in the future.  I'm definitely interested, but I still have some way to go before I'm confident in my ability to produce this state every time.  I have had two subsequent attempts that did not have the same results.  I think I know what the problems were.  Simple problems really...like being too exhausted prior to one attempt, which didn't leave me enough time to firmly establish my awareness before sleep was unavoidable.  On the other occasion it was the opposite problem--I was too well rested and simply stayed in a pleasant state of relaxation that did not lead to sleep.  I'll be trying this again later today.

upstream wrote

quote:Reemy should have no preconceptions because he have not experienced this state before. I have been experiencing similar states for years, so I'm able to make generalisations based on the patterns I've observed. Moreover, my duty is to have some conceptions about all of this.

Not that it's relevant to this discussion, but for the record Reemy is a she [].  I can't say that I entered into this without any preconceptions.  I've had success with lucid dreams for years--starting first from natural ability and perfected by the techniques of Laberge.  Due to my natural curiosity I've been inclined to study sleep patterns in general and in myself.  I've had a medical sleep study done, I've timed my REM cycles, I've experimented with interrupted sleep...so on.  But I did enter into this ignorant to the concept of full awareness in NREM.  If anything I might say that I was reluctant to think it was even possible, but that in no way hindered my eagerness to give this a try.  I did this purely as an experiment.  I didn't do it expecting to get the results T.L. spoke of but rather just to see what I would get.

T.L. wrote

quote:How do I know it is nrem sleep? Well when I enter this state I am not dreaming for one, secondly I feel my physical eyes slow to a stop and the whole time in here they arent moving.

This is what I felt also.  I could feel my eyes stop moving.  For me a sinking sensation came with this.  I've had plenty of lucid dreams fall apart into blackness (but clearly still in REM) before, where I might try to pull it back together or I might just lose lucidity, but this experience felt very different.  There was no question in my mind that I was no longer in REM.  Hopefully with future attempts I can better explain the subtle sensations.

BTW, I've really enjoyed reading all the posts in this thread.  

Namaste,
Reemy

[upstream]

Reeny, please accept my apologies for all my sins against you. (We were taught in the university that girls doesn't dream.)

[image]http://www.whimsicalnotes.com/children/bear_with_purple_flower.jpg[/image]

T.J., I don't tease you anymore, thanks for your patience.

Hey, SD, nice to have you here.
Where are we going tonight, heh?

[Reemy]

upstream wrote

quote:Reeny, please accept my apologies for all my sins against you. (We were taught in the university that girls doesn't dream.)

There were no sins!  And don't trust your professors []

Love the bear.

Namaste,
Reemy