Flaw in the typical spiritual (buddhist-type) thinking

[Razputin]

There are two realities: the Universal Reality (not within a perspective yet encompassing all of them) and the Relative Reality (within a single perspective) and there is only subjective delusion in between.
Typically spiritual people seek to have a universal reality, and everything they do follows that type of thinking. I think it's stupid, to seek to have a non-perspective perspective. A non-ego ego. Instead I think we should seek to change our ego into an Ego.

If reincarnation where real, a true buddhist would be literally *nothing*. They seek to have no bias, to become a part of the universe the way it is. I was we innately have a bias and to use it. A buddhist seeks to become the ground, I seek to take control of the ground. etc

They talk about happiness. They say in order to achieve happiness you have to go without. I say going without only lowers your standards for happiness.

They seek to find the will by eliminating all clutter in the mind. I seek to expand the will until there is no more room for clutter.

[CFTraveler]

Apparently, you haven't heard of The Middle Way.
It's what Buddha discovered/taught.
Maybe you should look into it.

[Stillwater]

True story.

Hold the string too tight, and it snaps. Too loose, and you don't get any music, Daniel-san.

[Razputin]

Buddha taught that trying is setting yourself up for failure and it is better to not try at all

[personalreality]

Buddha taught that trying is setting yourself up for failure and it is better to not try at all

Were you there?

I'm not a buddhist and I don't particularly find the buddhist path very captivating.  But you just sound like you have a grudge against buddhists.

oooh, no.  you know what you sound like, a satanist.  they are all about happiness and pleasure.  they aren't concerned with much else besides pursuing pleasure.  maybe you'd like the Satanic Bible, I thought it was a good read.

[Astral316]

A buddhist seeks to become the ground, I seek to take control of the ground. etc

The only way to control the ground is to become the ground. Controlling the ground without becoming the ground is chasing a dragon, stuffing yourself with pleasure until you want more... and more... and more... until finally it's apparent you lost control.

They talk about happiness. They say in order to achieve happiness you have to go without. I say going without only lowers your standards for happiness.

Buddhism is about balance... the Buddha downplayed asceticism.

They seek to find the will by eliminating all clutter in the mind. I seek to expand the will until there is no more room for clutter.

Buddhists don't have will? Haha, every competent person has will. Other than that I don't know what you're trying to say here.

Buddha taught that trying is setting yourself up for failure and it is better to not try at all

I guess that's why there are so many buddhists *trying* to reach enlightenment, *trying* to be free of a lack of satisfaction (or suffering) and *trying* to make the most of this physical life.

Maybe you should pick up a book about Buddhism... perhaps one that doesn't have pop-up pictures when you turn the pages?

[Summerlander]

Razputin...

Buddhist philosophy teaches that the true nature of mind is pristine cognition...a radiant emptiness. No concepts are perceived. A newborn is closer to this than an adult could ever be.

Also, many people in the West have the wrong idea about reincarnation...Buddhists will use the analogy that you can light a candle from another while that other one still burns. They believe karma determines the next life which is already happening anyway.

The reason for trying to achieve nirvana is so that one is free from dissonant states such as hatred, greed and delusion. The ego is what binds you to cyclical existence and for as long as you are reborn, you will always suffer. Nirvana is the ultimate solution to this suffering. Wouldn't you rather be in a state of bliss in a reality where everything meets? An archetypal reality which is unborn, uncreated and yet exists in all its glory? Also, whether the Buddha-mind lasts forever or not is debatable. Buddhism also teaches that all states of mind are temporary.

In the state of nirvana, you simply don't have to control anything! You are free! Liberation means not worrying about what will become of you. Here lies wisdom. You talk about wanting to control but, let me ask you this and answer me with honesty: are you in control of everything that happens in your life? Do you really think you have control in this world?

Buddha, as the story goes, did starve himself but he came to the conclusion that finding balance is the real key. We are all the same! Yes, love others but love yourself equally too! Find the balance! Don't be too altruistic or too egoistic. Of course Buddhists have will and they should have will. The will to live and the will to be happy. The Dalai Lama talks about happiness all the time. Be happy! You are allowed to love the things you do...but know deep inside that you could do without because you are free from desire, free from attachment!

For example...I love my electric guitar! I love it so much...it sounds great! It looks great! But if something happened to it...I wouldn't let that bother me. I can still do without. My mind would still be serene.

I think a lot of people misinterpret this philosophy and don't realise how powerful it really is!

[Razputin]

the satanist bible is meh. I read most of it when I was like 16 and I remember thinking he was trying to be too antichristain to get anywhere
but I guess I agree with that path the most. if you have to teach something to make money rather than use it's application, the thing ain't that grea

[Razputin]

this isn't as fresh in my mind as it once was

a newborn is closer to enlightenment because he has no false notions about things...but he also doesn't know as much about them and their application as an adult. they say they bind nothing...but that very thing is binding something. and worst of all they bind peace

why would I love someone else as much as I love myself? I only experience my experience. how about I learn to get people to love me while loving myself. learn to get what I want out of people yet leaving no bad energy our there to me....because they are oblivious to being used
Thelema. this is the hidden meaning of the book. to have the will of others conform with yours

think about this astally. what if all other will was [whatever your will is] and you would have your will. imagine the power you would have

I know someone. so they literally have some of my mind in their brain. what if I ruled them and I was all they thought about. my mind would be a prevalent force I. their brain. I think this is the secret to real possession

all this is about finding the true Ego. the perfect man.
when you become nothing your will conforms with god. there must be serenity in that. but what happens when you have will confirm to yours and become god

[Astral316]

why would I love someone else as much as I love myself? I only experience my experience. how about I learn to get people to love me while loving myself. learn to get what I want out of people yet leaving no bad energy our there to me....because they are oblivious to being used

We call that narcissism. Having lived with a parent with this mentality you'll be exposed sooner or later. Only the weak minded will bother with you at that point.

think about this astally. what if all other will was [whatever your will is] and you would have your will. imagine the power you would have

We call that a dream of the "pipe" variety.

I know someone. so they literally have some of my mind in their brain. what if I ruled them and I was all they thought about. my mind would be a prevalent force I. their brain. I think this is the secret to real possession  

Aaaaaaand we call that brainwashing.

all this is about finding the true Ego. the perfect man.
when you become nothing your will conforms with god. there must be serenity in that. but what happens when you have will confirm to yours and become god

Ask Hitler... oh wait.

[CFTraveler]

Summerlander said:  
I think a lot of people misinterpret this philosophy and don't realise how powerful it really is!

I think they also think that because asceticism is one of the ways he tried to attain enlightenment that this means it's what he proposed- they are not aware that (as you said) he figured out that this was not the way and discovered the problem wasn't having, the problem was attachment to having.

Razputin said:
I know someone. so they literally have some of my mind in their brain.

The deal goes both ways-if mind is permeable.  What if while you're trying to control theirs, they're controlling yours?  How would you even know this is happening?
To control someone else you have to be separate from them.  If not, you're a borg.

To want to rule, to want to control, to want, you have to feel you're not enough- you have to be unhappy.  Because only from unhappiness the lust for power comes.  That's why this philosophy is self-defeating.

This was interesting, but I suspect the theme is exhausted-at least for me.
Toodle Pip.

[personalreality]

why would I love someone else as much as I love myself? I only experience my experience.

it's in our nature to be enthralled with ourselves.  why else would we be put in a situation where we could only perceive our experience.

it isn't in my nature to use and abuse people for my magical gain (but i don't fault you for it being in your nature and i don't believe your actions are wrong, just to clarify), but i agree with this statement.  it's not narcissism to love oneself more than others.  narcissism is a debilitating obsession with one's self.  i love myself immensely, i feel psychologically healthier for it.  i have confidence and i support every decision i make because i do it for a reason (even if i don't understand that reason at the time).

[Astral316]

I'm fairly certain "using and abusing" out of love for oneself is what a narcissist does. I realize the OP is speaking idealistically (which means he probably feels a lack of control, etc.) but this "nature" *is* wrong by most moral standards and wouldn't be tolerated around free thinkers not interested in entertaining arrogance. Just applying the ideal to the real, that's all.

[Razputin]

We call that narcissism. Having lived with a parent with this mentality you'll be exposed sooner or later. Only the weak minded will bother with you at that point.

We call that a dream of the "pipe" variety.

Aaaaaaand we call that brainwashing.

Ask Hitler... oh wait.

life can be defined as-, and measures by will. your mind is the source of your will. your mind exists because of your brain and in the brain....but not necessarily only yours. like I said before, if someone knows you they literally have some of your mind in their brain. if your mind became a prevalent force in their brain, your mind being the source of your will, it's not too much of a stretch to think that your wi would expand both tangibly (they'd do what you wanted) and astrally

[Razputin]

I'm fairly certain "using and abusing" out of love for oneself is what a narcissist does. I realize the OP is speaking idealistically (which means he probably feels a lack of control, etc.) but this "nature" *is* wrong by most moral standards and wouldn't be tolerated around free thinkers not interested in entertaining arrogance. Just applying the ideal to the real, that's all.

I'm pretty sure narcissist is one of the many things popular psychology throws out there for people that aren't average. average equating mediocrity. I'm more interested in a transcendental psychology. productivity and logic over political correctness. freethinking over the bovine excrement society has imprinted on you.
(on a side note: I'm thinking of joining the army. I did pretty decent on the asvab so I want to get into what's called psyops. psyops influences the mindset of foreign populations using media. if this type of thing is something an enlisted army soldier can do, what do you think the CIA is doing to us. the world is full of pushers and pullers. and a pullers goal is to convince you to push)

it goes without saying that some of the most powerful people out there are what you'd call narcisists and sociopaths. they became that way subconsciously, through growing up and, to an extent, their genes. I see the productivity in it and I'm trying to become that way consciously. who says we don't create our psychological makeup
I'm willing to change, and continue changing, everything I am to conform with logic

[Astral316]

freethinking over the bovine excrement society has imprinted on you.

Materialism, egocentrism, etc. is something society imprinted on me, not Buddhist philosophy. I'm all for attaining happiness in this physical life, but not at the expense of others. Anyway, good luck with that endeavor.

[CFTraveler]

And, 'society' is us- when we get together and decide that others don't get to have the free will of attacking or raping me, for example, that's one of those bovine excrement expectations- 'society' is not some abstract concept that someone dreamed up.  It's us, together, coming up with ways to be.
The reason that Gautama Siddharta came up with his ideas is because he wasn't finding his life to be satisfactory, and those ideas or precepts worked for him.

[Summerlander]

You do what you think is right, Razputin. But remember: there was an ocean once. Every water molecule was connected. It was an ocean, it was one. Every ripple, every wave meant interaction with itself. Then the temperature changed, things slowed down, and the ocean froze. A massive something shattered the ocean into a myriad individual pieces of ice. Each with their own shape, property and identity. The ocean in its new shattered form, with the shards of ice, created the illusion of individually. It seemed that the WHOLE ocean was no more, but it was still there for nothing had truly vanished.

You may say that you only experience what you experience, but just remember that others experience too...just as you do...albeit differently...but like you nonetheless because they are alive and human like you. What do you have in common with them? Consciousness. And in consciousness the concept of empathy was born.

Just like every shard of ice is made of water.

[Astral316]

You do what you think is right, Razputin. But remember: there was an ocean once. Every water molecule was connected. It was an ocean, it was one. Every ripple, every wave meant interaction with itself. Then the temperature changed, things slowed down, and the ocean froze. A massive something shattered the ocean into a myriad individual pieces of ice. Each with their own shape, property and identity. The ocean in its new shattered form, with the shards of ice, created the illusion of individually. It seemed that the WHOLE ocean was no more, but it was still there for nothing had truly vanished.

Great analogy. It's a sad thing when a rain drop thinks it can overtake an ocean.

[Summerlander]

Exactly what I was thinking...and I couldn't help but think that.

[thewhitesnake]

this isn't as fresh in my mind as it once was

a newborn is closer to enlightenment because he has no false notions about things...but he also doesn't know as much about them and their application as an adult. they say they bind nothing...but that very thing is binding something. and worst of all they bind peace

why would I love someone else as much as I love myself? I only experience my experience. how about I learn to get people to love me while loving myself. learn to get what I want out of people yet leaving no bad energy our there to me....because they are oblivious to being used
Thelema. this is the hidden meaning of the book. to have the will of others conform with yours

think about this astally. what if all other will was [whatever your will is] and you would have your will. imagine the power you would have

I know someone. so they literally have some of my mind in their brain. what if I ruled them and I was all they thought about. my mind would be a prevalent force I. their brain. I think this is the secret to real possession

all this is about finding the true Ego. the perfect man.
when you become nothing your will conforms with god. there must be serenity in that. but what happens when you have will confirm to yours and become god

I find the well-being of others conducive to my happiness, although clearly you don't. Your philosophy takes a coldness of soul and a narrowing of ones humanity.

Your mindset is the same as the Ayn Rands and her life was in shambles. Probably because of Objectivism's impotence as a life creed.

I suspect you are young. Perhaps when you grow older you will become more "other-interested" and realize selfishness is not a virtue. If not, let me tell you, the glaze settling over the eyes of your victim isn't your possession of them, it's the expression of boredom. So in my interest of avoiding boredom, I hope I never meet you and your stunted philosophy.

[personalreality]

all the hippy dippy new agers have forced the notion of "love and light" on us.  but you just said it snake, it makes YOU happy when others are happy.  caring about the wellbeing of others is just as selfish as what razputin believes.  you're no better.

[Astral316]

Any action one takes can be broken down into an action of self-interest or "selfishness", therefore it's not really the issue. We're talking about when one's happiness acts as a barrier to another's.

[Razputin]

You do what you think is right, Razputin. But remember: there was an ocean once. Every water molecule was connected. It was an ocean, it was one. Every ripple, every wave meant interaction with itself. Then the temperature changed, things slowed down, and the ocean froze. A massive something shattered the ocean into a myriad individual pieces of ice. Each with their own shape, property and identity. The ocean in its new shattered form, with the shards of ice, created the illusion of individually. It seemed that the WHOLE ocean was no more, but it was still there for nothing had truly vanished.

You may say that you only experience what you experience, but just remember that others experience too...just as you do...albeit differently...but like you nonetheless because they are alive and human like you. What do you have in common with them? Consciousness. And in consciousness the concept of empathy was born.

Just like every shard of ice is made of water.

I like where you were going with that...
but weather or not someone feels the same as me is irrelevant. I experience only my experience, the only importance our connectivity plays is how others affect my experience.
the "non-Wills" of Buddhist are strong and I respect it. it's hard to explain how I see Buddhism

all passiveness is waiting to be taken by action. by Will. Buddhists have the strongest form of passiveness. all that non-Will waiting to be uses by Will



all for One and One for One.....making it One for all. that's the best way I can describe it

[vpsean]

Apparently, you haven't heard of The Middle Way.
It's what Buddha discovered/taught.
Maybe you should look into it.

You have a good point CFTraveler.

I think a lot of people miss this unfortunately and polar decisions tend to be made ... polar routes in life ... etc. Black & White. 

The middle path is awesome in my opinion. 

With Love & Gratitude,
--Sean Patrick Simpson
www.AdventuresInManifesting.org