Meditation into projection

[Astral316]

I guess that really does reinforce the idea that one has to come to their own truths.  

How so? I'm arguing practicality, not personal truths (which is a safe term for "beliefs" anyway.) Do you believe in the concept or the label Tom Campbell attached to it?

[Xanth]

How so? I'm arguing practicality, not personal truths (which is a safe term for "beliefs" anyway.) Do you believe in the concept or the label Tom Campbell attached to it?

I've experienced the PoC State, it's not a belief to me anymore... it's a known.
As for the rest of Tom's TOE, I neither believe nor disbelieve it.  I'm gathering my own evidence to support or not support his claims.

What I do believe is that my KNOWING what the PoC State is and can do for me is how I'm going to find that evidence.  And honestly, if it's not there... then meh... I'm not really disappointed either.  Win/win for me. 

But to answer your direct question of "How so?"... you said it yourself, these terms can mean almost anything from ones own perspective.  Finding what they mean to you is most important. 

[Astral316]

If it's a known to you it's a belief... not all beliefs are based on faith, but that's beside the point. You seem to be meandering around the point anyway so I'll leave it at that.

[Xanth]

If it's a known to you it's a belief... not all beliefs are based on faith, but that's beside the point. You seem to be meandering around the point anyway so I'll leave it at that.

Let's see if I can explain this a little better then, because there's some confusion going on here.

If it's a known to me, it's a belief to you.  Not a belief to me.
That's the difference. 

But, in the end, I guess you may call it whatever you wish. 

[Xanth]

Just so there is clarification towards the original subject of this thread...

The "known" I'm referring to is that if you want to learn to have conscious exit non-physical experiences (ie: astral projections from a completely conscious state at any time of day), then one needs to master themselves first.  You need to learn to initially learn to quiet your mind through meditation.  There's really no other way around it. 

This "was" a belief for me at one point until I finally made the connection between my experiences and my meditation past.  It was a belief... it's now something I "know" to be true.  Meditation is the starting point, it's a requirement for learning to explore the non-physical.

I'm sorry if I was slightly confusing in my explanation of that before.  But that's my point, in a nutshell.  LoL

[Astral316]

Edit: Had a response that was relevant to your response but not to my premise... not everything boils down to beliefs, hopefully you can realize that. When it comes to helping others around here it's a "known" to me that complicating things with a few more sets of terminology only to tote the Campbell brand will make the learning curve steeper for the beginners.

[Xanth]

And Jesus saving the sinners post-death is a "known" to Christians, races that aren't of European descent being inferior is a "known" to white supremacists, the Earth being the center of the universe was a "known" pre-Renaissance etc.

I see the difference quite well, thanks for the clarification.  

Except in two of those three examples they didn't have any actual experience beyond faith (or their bible) to back their up their position.
As for the Earth being the center of the universe, well, they had observational data... so I can't argue against that one.  Their observational data just happened to be wrong eventually.  LoL

Hell, I'm not even asking you to believe me when I say that Meditation is a requirement to learning to Project.  I'm saying "try it".  See for yourself if what I say is true or not.  Don't believe or disbelieve me.  Do your own experiments; record your own results; come to your own conclusions if I'm a crazy nutjob or not.  LoL 

And just as some background info: It's not like I just one day stood up and said "Tom said the PoC state is required" and *bam* that's what I now believe.  He opened my eyes to what the last 10 - 15 years of my life have been yelling at me.  I stand from a position of knowing, not believing through faith.  If that's not understood... well then, I guess we'll just have to leave it at that. 

With Franks Focus Model, it *WAS* always a matter of just belief... I've since dropped that belief trap and I'm now focusing upon finding my own evidence for how reality is modeled, if indeed you can model such a thing. 

[Astral316]

For the record I've experienced the 3D Blackness... I believe it because I experienced it, you might say it's a known to me. I could think up a hundred different names for it too... "the really dark place", "the ebony experience", and "the state of diet cherry coke" to name a few. That doesn't mean I'm going to confuse others by saying, "well I entered the diet cherry coke state, and then I..." I wouldn't do this as a member here, much less as a mod who appears to want to help others... just one man's opinion.

[Xanth]

For the record I've experienced the 3D Blackness... I believe it because I experienced it, you might say it's a known to me. I could think up a hundred different names for it too... "the really dark place", "the ebony experience", and "the state of diet cherry coke" to name a few. That doesn't mean I'm going to confuse others by saying, "well I entered the diet cherry coke state, and then I..." I wouldn't do this as a member here, much less as a mod who appears to want to help others... just one man's opinion.

Seems like the problem lies in the language I'm using then. 
For the most part, I do try to keep with using the language that other people understand mostly.

That's why I haven't completely dropped certain terms from my posting like "Out of Body Experience" or "Astral Projection"... even though I completely disagree with their usage. 

But if it helps... yes, the "PoC" state I talk about is the same as the other things I listed above.  Perhaps, for the sake of clarity, I completely agree that I shall just continue to call it Focus 21.  Even though I think that "PoC" is probably a better term for it.  LoL
Sometimes I wish there weren't so many terms for similar things in this field... it really would help to have a standard term for certain things.  hehe

[Astral316]

Seems like the problem lies in the language I'm using then. 
For the most part, I do try to keep with using the language that other people understand mostly.

That's why I haven't completely dropped certain terms from my posting like "Out of Body Experience" or "Astral Projection"... even though I completely disagree with their usage. 

But if it helps... yes, the "PoC" state I talk about is the same as the other things I listed above.  Perhaps, for the sake of clarity, I completely agree that I shall just continue to call it Focus 21.  Even though I think that "PoC" is probably a better term for it.  LoL
Sometimes I wish there weren't so many terms for similar things in this field... it really would help to have a standard term for certain things.  hehe

Agreed. I wouldn't bother raising the issue if we didn't use the phrase commonly for something else. I actually think 3D Blackness describes the state perfectly. It's one of those terms that you can conceptualize and identify with fairly quickly.

[bluremi]

Hey Xanth, can you reach PoC fairly regularly? How long does it take you during the average successful attempt? Are there any stages you pass through on the way there that you have learned to identify?

[Stookie]

I'm completely with A316 on this one. Lets not confuse people. I've been doing this for a while and I was completely baffled. There are many ways to reach FZ. And you can exist as a point of consciousness in states other than FZ. I don't understand the connection. I've never read any Campbell either though. I tried doing a search and all I can come up with is where Xanth was talking about it all over the internet, so I don't know the connection.

I'm not saying it's not valid either, it's just, uh... confusing as s***.

If you go through all of the methods we have to project here, pretty much all of them are some sort of meditation. Basically, you have to focus on something, you have to concentrate. I've told people for years that if they want to get good at it, it's best to hone their mind with concentration exercises, and if they're up to it, visualization exercises. People tend to want to get right to the good stuff. It will always be that way. And some (probably few, but they exist) are just plain naturals and don't have to try hard at all.

Whether you become a point of consciousness or not is something else. If you've done it before, yes, projection will probably be easier because you've had some experience with non-physical states of consciousness. Really, you've already projected. I don't think it has to do with the particulars of that state though. More about existing in a state other than physical.

Regular mediation (if done properly) will definitely help. But it doesn't have to be a "PoC" meditation. Just picturing a pencil in your mind with no intruding thoughts for 10 minutes a day will slowly increase your ability to properly do a projection technique to full success. There are a lot of things you can do. I can't believe I'm saying this again, but for the 4,000th time: what is easy for one person can be hard for another, you just have to get some experience under your belt and find what works for you.