POLL about spirituality with astral projectors

[Volgerle]

But, is not what we here on this forum believe.. Also a belief system? I ask because I believe certain things about life, reality, the afterlife, souls, etc.. That are a culmination of various experiences and beliefs... But is that different than a belief "system" because it is not so mainstream or based in fear? I realize alot of relgious belief systems are based on fear but maybe not all that would be called that are. What do you think?

You can call it belief (system). But there is a difference: It is based on EXPERIENCE.

A BS that is based on EXPERIENCE instead of mere fear-dogma has much more 'truthability' in it, imv.

By this I mean conclusions from your own adventures as AP/OBEr or clairvoyant or whatever psychic ability you have but also that of other EXPERIENCErs, such as other 'projectors' and of course the ones that write books about it, Monroe, Buhlman, Leeland & Co.

Personally, I also include the information we get from regressive hypnosis (from books, my personal attempt unfortunately failed  , ... but at least I tried to EXPERIENCE it ..  ) and compare it to that of AP. But that is just my personal take on it, to get to my 'belief system' if you will, although I'd also like to say it is best to have no firm beliefs at all about anything.

[deepspace]

I again agree, however I would like to point out that so many of us refer to religions and such as belief systems.. Which they are. But, is not what we here on this forum believe.. Also a belief system? I ask because I believe certain things about life, reality, the afterlife, souls, etc.. That are a culmination of various experiences and beliefs... But is that different than a belief "system" because it is not so mainstream or based in fear? I realize alot of relgious belief systems are based on fear but maybe not all that would be called that are. What do you think?

There is a difference from beliefs and belief systems. We are discussing things here and trying to find the truth, not just accepting someone else's version of it. It's like the difference between, chewing on food as opposed to sticking an IV into your vein. And we are open to changing our views or modifying them, at least I am.

I too think religions are belief systems, they have everything you are supposed to believe already defined and packaged for you. You are supposed to swallow it whole, accept it without modifying it based on what makes sense to you or what your experiences have been. I think they are O.K. as a starting point, but we need to move beyond them.

I have a friend who is a fundamentalist christian and we used to do all kinds of christian activities together when I was part of that belief system. He is quite disappointed now with my new beliefs (but no system). I was explaining to him some of what I thought and why. He got angry and seemed almost insulted, saying something like, "What gives you the right to come up with your own version of who or what God is, what the afterlife will be like or anything else? God gave us the truth in the bible already" I was really taken aback. He reminded me of someone from a cult who was threatened and recoiling in fear. I know for sure I made the right choice by leaving. One thing I thought about after his visit was the huge investment people make into belief systems and how hard it is to unwind that if you know what I mean. I went through it myself.

So yes we do develop our own beliefs, but I'd say they are more what I would call a map of reality than a belief system. More of functional diagram to help us understand things than an absolute "this is how it is" kind of belief. I try to avoid those. And they are evolving and growing, so we don't have to claim we have the answers yet.

But getting beyond that, beyond any beliefs, that can give you even more freedom to experience what's there and just be an observer. If we can at least suspend our beliefs and simply experience and observe, that often allows us to take things in at deeper level. Then to realize deeper things which just naturally come up to the surface without our figuring them out. You just become aware.

[Lionheart]

God gave us the truth in the bible already.

 If we can at least suspend our beliefs and simply experience and observe, that often allows us to take things in at deeper level. Then to realize deeper things which just naturally come up to the surface without our figuring them out. You just become aware.

What many of these people don't seem to realize is that God did not "write" the Bible, man did!
Did you know that the "Great Flood" was described in the Sumerian Tablets, thousands of years before the Bible was written? 

There's no control to be had when you are having people experience and observe things for themselves. "Awareness" is controls worse nightmare!  

[Astral-Trea]

Great points by all!   

[BranStark]

Hey, that is great discussion, I couldn't be agreeing more.

To the initial post of Astral-Tea, though: Maybe I have got something new for you. There is this guy I know and I was talking with him about dreams and stuff and then we got to OOBEs. He told me about his experiences (from what he described I am pretty sure it was an OOBE: vibrations, then floating in his bedroom etc.) and then went on explaining how he had found how to perform this "self-hypnosis" on the internet and how it was just a work of the brain and nothing more. When I told him about my views and my experience, he accepted my POV but told me he didn't believe in this spiritual stuff.

So here you have your answer. Also atheists can AP. But there was probably no cognitive dissonance to it, that is true. He believed in his ability to do it, just didn't share our views on what it really was.

[BranStark]

Yeah and I used to be an atheist before my first (and so far the last , but hopefully not for long ) OOBE. It totally rocked my view on the life and opened my mind to things I would haveconsidered crazy before. But you might have already read that in another thread.

But it was more complicated than that. I come from a family where my dad doesn't believe in anything after death and my mother is a christian and her parents are into it even more. They often made me go to church with them and pray before sleep, bought my children Bibles... when I was a small kid. So I automatically became a christianity-follower too. But as I grew a bit older and started developing my own sense, I began to question the palpable absurdity of christian dogmas and the belief itself. Back then I knew nothing but the different approaches of my parents so when I found myself disagreeing with my mother's I figured my father's must be correct. I also became interested in science... so here we go (doesn't mean I am not anymore, just have a more open-minded view).

From that moment on I was an atheist and never gave much thought to this area. It never occured to me there might be some othere "truth" than a rigid religious belief-system and atheist nonbelief-system (no less rigid by the way , but we all now this). Until that OOBE I had. So yes, this experience changed me a lot and to better, I think. And what a coincidence it was, I never meant to consciously AP. But we all, including Master Yoda , know that "There is no such a thing as coincidence, only the Force."

[Volgerle]

What many of these people don't seem to realize is that God did not "write" the Bible, man did!
Did you know that the "Great Flood" was described in the Sumerian Tablets, thousands of years before the Bible was written?

and there's many more, hundreds of "Earth Flood Myths" all over the ancient world in every part of the planet

[deepspace]

So here you have your answer. Also atheists can AP. But there was probably no cognitive dissonance to it, that is true. He believed in his ability to do it, just didn't share our views on what it really was.

I think that's an important distinction to make. Life is more about experience than belief. We get hung up too much sometimes about whether we believe in something. What's more important is the value it has. As an example, it's not necessary for me to "believe in" the dream guides or whatever we want to call the entities that show in my dreams. The experiences have so much value and there is often some wisdom given to me that I need. Sometimes it's just the sense of being completely loved that can stay with me for the entire day. So I don't need to get hung up in whether they were spiritual beings, or parts of my higher self or whatever. I think we waste of lot energy trying to decide on these things, it takes away from what we are really here to do: experience.

[Lionheart]

Last night there was a speaker on Coast to Coast AM named Matthew Alper. He is a self proclaimed Atheist and wrote a book called "The God Part of the Brain". He said that he came to his conclusions due to his explorations via meditation, drugs and Altered Realities. he attempts to answer the question "Is man the product of God...or is God the product of human evolution?"

Once the video is up for replay I will post a link to it. It was interesting and he gave some no nonsense compelling arguments for his belief.

But in the end, I fear that someday someone will have to "Retrieve" him from his belief system zone, once he passes on.

But what kind of zone would that be if they don't believe there is no "zone", if they think this is finality?

Here's a link to his website:  http://www.godpart.com/

[deepspace]

But in the end, I fear that someday someone will have to "Retrieve" him from his belief system zone, once he passes on.

But what kind of zone would that be if they don't believe there is no "zone", if they think this is finality?

I have this question as well. I've read some opinions on this, mostly saying people who believe there is nothing will need to be allowed to have a something like a period of sleep after which they will approached. Others say they will be in a place like what some describe as the void, but also when they are ready, will be helped of course.

In any case, my guess is that they will be easier to get out than people who have fear attachments to their belief systems or people who made huge investments into their belief systems. The fear-based ones seem to me to be the worst-case scenario because those trying to help might be seen as demons or evil entities trying to trick them into leaving. The Bible says that Satan can appear as an angel of light to deceive believers (something I once believed in). This, to me, seems particularly harmful. If such belief system zones do exist, they will be filled entirely with people who have the same beliefs so unlike our life on Earth, there will be no one to disagree or help them out of it. That's a scary thought. I am SO glad I got rid of my fear-based belief system before my exit.

[Astral-Trea]

Last night there was a speaker on Coast to Coast AM named Matthew Alper. He is a self proclaimed Atheist and wrote a book called "The God Part of the Brain". He said that he came to his conclusions due to his explorations via meditation, drugs and Altered Realities. he attempts to answer the question "Is man the product of God...or is God the product of human evolution?"

Once the video is up for replay I will post a link to it. It was interesting and he gave some no nonsense compelling arguments for his belief.

But in the end, I fear that someday someone will have to "Retrieve" him from his belief system zone, once he passes on.

But what kind of zone would that be if they don't believe there is no "zone", if they think this is finality?

Here's a link to his website:  http://www.godpart.com/

I listened to his spill recently when he was on Art Bell's Dark Matter... I wasn't impressed with him at all. He claims to do alot of research but if you listen to him speak, you can see how extremely close minded he is. He is not at all willing to change his opinion in an afterlife, only to do research to try to prove himself right.

One of the things that really urks me about some people is when they claim NDE is some sort of hallucination in the brain. There are many cases I have researched where people were confirmed to have no brain activity at all (brain dead) and they had these experiences to the point where they were able to tell others what was being discussed and done in the room after they were dead. His explaination I believe was that they somehow heard these things. You cant hear or see when your eyes are closed and you have no brain activity.. He wont touch that though.. He just makes the assumption that the person isn't really dead, that they are dying and have an experience due to the brain having a lack of oxygen.

These guys stay far away from the cases of people being in comas with no brain activity for mnths and then waking up and talking about their OBE, or blind women who have never seen before dying and being able to describe in detail everything and everyone in the operating room. Sorry to rant.. There is just too much evidence like this that guys like Alper refuse to acknowledge because it doesn't help reenforce his belief system. And claiming to have confirmed these things and publicizing it in books just serves to lead already confused people off of a cliff. Hopefully some of these people will go through an awakening like most of us have... But if not, and there is a job opening for retriever after I finish this life, i would like to try to help those people.

[deepspace]

Many people are searching for some sort of an objective reality with absolute concepts, mainly I think for comfort and security. The whole idea of materialism is just one big illusion. The idea that reality is subjective and experience-based requires you to let go of the concept of physical world being this fixed, solid world of predictable rules. It's only that way because of our collective belief in it.

[Volgerle]

... he gave some no nonsense compelling arguments for his belief ...

I haven't listened to the link of this guys interview, had enough of this BS....

But I still cannot believe the "arguments" are 'no nonsense'. I think they are nonsense, and they are the same all over (that's why I spare me a listening).

They possibly only make sense within the narrow confines of their little dark tiny mind-box into which these people incarcerate themselves. This is how it goes: "I have everything neatly measured out in here in my little box. Newton physics is enough for me. Reductionist science has explained it all. I have figured it all out. There is no outside world. There is no wider reality. I won't open the door, I won't open the windows. There is nothing outside. Nothing! All those spirtual people talking about an outside world are nutters ..." (etc. pp.)

[Lionheart]

I haven't listened to the link of this guys interview, had enough of this BS....

But I still cannot believe the "arguments" are 'no nonsense'. I think they are nonsense, and they are the same all over (that's why I spare me a listening).

They possibly only make sense within the narrow confines of their little dark tiny mind-box into which these people incarcerate themselves. This is how it goes: "I have everything neatly measured out in here in my little box. Newton physics is enough for me. Reductionist science has explained it all. I have figured it all out. There is no outside world. There is no wider reality. I won't open the door, I won't open the windows. There is nothing outside. Nothing! All those spirtual people talking about an outside world are nutters ..." (etc. pp.)

His beliefs and what he has been shown is no nonsense to him, just like this practice that we do here, that most people call nonsense is.

I have a open mind. It doesn't mean I have to believe this stuff. But, I give people their due. He wasn't necessarily thinking outside of the box, he had literally closed the box tightly!