LDs are not OBEs

[Summerlander]

Ok, I hope you tell me soon on Facebook. By the way, we are on topic. We have just shown that OOBE = Lucid dream.

More:

"During REM sleep the body paralyzes itself as a protection mechanism in order to prevent the movements which occur in the dream from causing the physical body to move. However, it is possible for this mechanism to be triggered before, during, or after normal sleep while the brain awakens. This can lead to a state where a person is lying in bed and feels paralyzed. Hypnagogic hallucination may occur in this state, especially auditory ones. Effects of sleep paralysis include heaviness or inability to move the muscles, rushing or pulsating noises, and brief hypnogogic imagery. Experiencing sleep paralysis is a necessary part of WILD, in which dreamers essentially detach their "dream" body from the paralyzed one. Also see OBE or Out-Of-Body-Experience, opposing the scientific theory of these occurrences stating that the paralysis is actually an occurrence to one who is already "separated" from their physical body meaning that "physical action potentials" have no effect here but "mental actions" do—a hint given that those who are finding difficulty moving are using the wrong "mechanism"."

[Xanth]

If we are dreaming, this dream is too stable, but then again, it could feel like this when we die. Waking up from a dream feels weird as we came back in a world that has its own set of rules and things don't add up. Probably, especially those who are not used to the Phase, we will feel the same about our life as it is not very similar to our previous "dream"'s rules.. although we can make the meta-physical be like this. Did this make any sense? lol

Well, I'll tell ya... when you ask "if we are dreaming, this dream is too stable"...
When I'm experiencing a dream while it's happening, it feels *EXACTLY* like I do right now.  There's, literally, no difference.

I actually just found a really well written article on another site:  http://www.astralvoyage.com/projection/difference.html
I liked it so much I just posted it to my own website.  The author, Anne, describes it in the first paragraph that she believes the difference is which "mind" is in control (conscious or subconscious minds) during the experience, which is really a great way to describe it.

If your subconscious mind is in full control, it's a dream experience.
If your conscious mind is in full control, it's an astral experience.
Then there's the range of combinations between those two, which would be lucid experiences of varying degrees.

It's all about "internalizing" the experience instead of "externalizing" them.  These experiences aren't something you do... they're a state of mind YOU ARE.
You don't HAVE an astral projection... you ARE astrally aware (or in Anne's case, your conscious mind is in full control).

[Ssergiu]

Nice said, Xanth! I guess it works that way too.  What I always meant by losing awareness was exactly the fact that your subconscious mind is taking over.

[Summerlander]

That makes sense. Also, let's remember that non-lucid dreams can be vivid and whatever happens in them is completely accepted by the brain to be really happening. When one is aware of dreaming, however, brain parts that are usually active during the waking state have displayed similar activity. It's as if the conscious is analysing the unconscious. This is also why I've used the brain hemispheres hypothesis as a possible explanation for the differences between Mode 1 and Mode 2:

There is, of course, the possibility that one never really leaves the body as the experience could be an illusion created by the brain, and that, while dreams and imagination could be a product of abundant activity in the right hemisphere of the brain, Mode 1 OOBEs would be a product of the left hemisphere and hence the reason why they are 'more true to life' so to speak. Experiences conducted with split-brain individuals where dreaming is concerned seemingly strengthen the feasibility of such explanation as their dreaming was found to be unimaginative and often tied to reality.

- Summerlander

More from that link:

"OBEs induced from waking (with the intention of achieving Astral Projection) and lucid dreams induced from waking cover such similar ground that common misinterpretation of one as the other (or even equivalence) can be hypothesized. Realistic-seeming yet physically impossible impressions of flying, time-traveling or walking through the walls of an environment matching one's bedroom are equally hallmarks of either. (As those who have experienced them will attest, neither "feels" like ordinary dreams at all.) Their induction techniques are similar, and both are easier to perform at times typical for afternoon naps and late morning REM cycles."

[Pauli2]

I took a look at the T Campbell forum and found one post from him, where he says that
LDs and OBEs "are fundamentally very similar". Similar but NOT identical. He then
continues with mentioning their main differences. It seems that Campbell thinks the
difference between LDs and OBEs are smaller than some other astral matter experts.
But still, he view them as having differences, though small such.

So to keep with the subject:

The list of skilled people grows. They have all noticed that LDs are not OBEs:
Buhlman, Waggoner, Peterson, Gabbard & Twemlow, Scott Rogo, LaBerge,
Monroe, Campbell, Levitan and Susan Blackmore.

[Xanth]

Actually, I'm fairly certain Tom would be quite disappointed in your approach here Pauli.

Can you provide the exact forum post you read?

Secondly... his version of reality doesn't quite match up with the others, it's his TOE reality that he's referring to.  In which case, there's PMR (Physical Matter Reality) and NPMR (Non Physical Matter Reality)... that's the basics of how he breaks it down.  Dreams, Lucid Dreams, Astral Projections... to him, all happen in NPMR.

He'd state that the different labels that people give these experiences are vastly meaningless.  What's important is ONLY the experience... not what someone labels it.  And with that statement, I'd 100% agree with him.  Although I'm fairly certain that you'll never experience it nor understand it.

Through his TOE, he actually has a very insightful label of his own: Out-Of-PMR Experience  (OOPE)
In my experience that is a much better label than Monroe's OOBE will ever be.

And allow me to toss a wrench into your list there, and you might wanna remove Campbell from your list too:

http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2961&p=6164&hilit=Lucid+Dream#p6164

Lucid dreams and OOBE approach leaving PMR from different awareness's and perspectives. Because of that difference people who have little operational control tend, by default, to remain tied to the spaces through which they enter the out-of-PMR experience --- i.e., lucid dreams (entered from a dream state) are more dreamlike and OOBE (entered fully conscious) is more awake like. However it is only habit and belief that ties someone to the spaces through which they enter the out-of-PMR experience. Once free of PMR, your focus and intent (and, of course, your ego, fears, expectations, needs, and beliefs -- if you happen to have any of those things ) are solely in charge of what happens next.

It's quite clear that through Tom's experiences, once you leave PMR (the method or mode is of not much concern), you're "out" and what happens to you is entirely up to you.

I'm not even sure why I'm writing this... it's gonna go in one ear and out the other, just like the entire last year.  Meh.

This thread is going in circles now.

I'm going to lock and leave this thread with this bit written by Tom himself: http://www.my-big-toe.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2263&p=2515&hilit=Lucid+Dream#p2515