Do you worship god (or not) and why?

[bomohwkl]

Forgivesness comes from within yourself. If you feel guilty and you know u have done something wrong and u can not forgive yourself, then you cannot be forgiven.
Gospel of Thomas from the dead scroll sea said:
3 Jesus said "If you leaders say to you, "Look, the kingdom is in heaven" the the birds of heaven will precede you. If they say to you, "It is in the sea" then the fish will precede you. Rather, the kingdom is inside you and it is outside you"....
Obvious, it also means that no matter how powerful a person, he will never able to change the TRUTH of the universe, however, no one can stop him from misinforming people. We are here to discover the TRUTH (or as close as the TRUTH as possible) in our life.
Anyway Human is already capable of evil himself. Just put Satan aside, he might not even exist!!

[beav31is]

GTP "If we reject this wonderful gift, we will go to Hell. That's just how it is."

Your god has threatened to burn me (or have somebody else do it). I will not worship anybody who threatens me. I also refuse to obey his punishment for not obeying his mistranslated instructions, if he even wrote them. You might be too weak to resist this terrorist, but I am not.

[no_leaf_clover]

heh... i just copied and pasted. a friend of mine sent that to me (monkey!). i loved it too, thats why i still have it.

sorry gtp, but that's not "just how it is". i think that's ignorant of you to use that as an excuse for a reason for anything. "that's just how it is" doesn't even make sense on its own.

1) there's good evidence that is subdued by the catholic church that jesus never died on the cross, but had lived and had several children that became kings all over europe. there's a link to a book on the subject on another forum. i'll find it and post it for you. looks like a good read.

2) "satan" was introduced to the church at around 350 ad. prior to this the church supported reincarnation. satan and hell are bed time stories to keep christian sheep in line. there is no satan. there is no hell. the closest thing to hell is the lower astral realms, and when you die, if you believe, or even fear going to hell, you may very well wind up in an unpleasant realm for a while. the church is at fault for this. we should all look forward to a peaceful afterlife.

3) "god" "judges" us on what we do, not what our ancestors did. yet we still pay for mistakes made by adam and eve, as we are not immortal. i don't find this to make any sense, but maybe that's just me [].

[no_leaf_clover]

i only the think the quotes with the ellipsises (or ellipsi? sp?) have been taken out of context. some of the quotes are dead-on, right from the bible, in perfect context. i admit whoever originally wrote that up was a little biased and tried to take some statements out of context completely, but for the ones that aren't out of context (a good many!!), it makes you think.. unless, of course, you're the kind of 'sheep' christian that goes along with whatever he/she hears and defends it to the death, even when it's obvious that they're wrong, as if it's some sort of act of faith.. []

[no_leaf_clover]

here's a link to the book about jesus not dying on the cross..

www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0440136482/103-2898023-0022232?vi=glance

[GTP]

Hmmm, I've been called weak and ignorant for stating my beliefs. Oh well, in the past I might have been stoned to death for what I've said, I'm glad we have come this far![] Seriously though, everyone has their own beliefs, I've politely passed along the message of my beliefs and have been insulted in the process but that honestly comes as no surprise.

I would however like to 'brush the dirt off my name' and clear up any misconceptions about me. No I am not weak minded or anything just because I place my trust in Jesus; if you were to ask my family or any of my athiest or Christian friends they would confirm this. Am I ignorant because I trust the Bible? Maybe. Maybe not. But I can feel God's love and have faith, so I'm very secure in my beliefs.

I'm not some fanatic Bible thumper here to troll, I regularily have OBE's both naturally and self-induced, and practice lucid dreaming, I've had LSD-induced mystical experiences and had some pretty crazy experiences in sensory deprivation tanks.

Still think I'm weak minded and ignorant?

[bomohwkl]

The most dangerous for conscious evolution is believing something without personal verification. If something is true then it can be verified by anyone. When something is true is will agree on everything u observe without any self-contradiction. That's the method I use verify my own 'belief' system until I understand and know.
Swallow a belief system WITHOUT QUESTIONING and personal verifying is a great step BACKWARD in spiritual progression. Worst still, if it is full of distorted and misinformation of spiritual knowledge.It is our own responsibility to sort this out.
The wise Buddha once said,"Do not accept my lessons because you respect me! You should use practice to test the Universal Truths that I teach, just like using fire to test real gold. You can learn to recognize the Essential Universal Truths from the fruits of their manifestations."

[no_leaf_clover]

i didn't say you were weak-minded, i said it was ignorant of you to use "that's just how it is" as a reason for things. "that's just how it is" does not account for satan, jesus, etc.

i did not call you an ignorant person to begin with.

[GTP]

quote:Originally posted by bomohwkl

The most dangerous for conscious evolution is believing something without personal verification. If something is true then it can be verified by anyone. When something is true is will agree on everything u observe without any self-contradiction. That's the method I use verify my own 'belief' system until I understand and know.
Swallow a belief system WITHOUT QUESTIONING and personal verifying is a great step BACKWARD in spiritual progression. Worst still, if it is full of distorted and misinformation of spiritual knowledge.It is our own responsibility to sort this out.

I agree that you should always question a belief system. But I also believe that not everything can be personaly verified, whether it is supernatural or not. That is why I have faith. Everyone uses faith to some degree. It's just that for me, a big part of my belief involves faith.[]

[timmerdogg]

thanks for backing me up GTP![] I am sick of everyone putting down the christian belief. I have a personal relationship with God and noone on this forum will be able to tear me apart from God. You have never experienced the joy of christianity. How can you say stuff without any backround? I AM A CHRISTIAN. YOU ARE NOT. So wouldnt i know more about christianty than you? In the Bible it says that people will be blinded by Satan and dont want to see God. God sends people like missionaries to try and get these people to see again. How can you explain ex-child rapests accepting God and then turning their whole lives around and are the kindest people afterwards!? Adam and Eve were just like us. IF WE were in their position WE WOULD HAVE SINNED ALSO. It is in our nature. God gave us the ability to make our own decisions and we abused it and were punished for it. No other gods in other religions have died for humans or had compasion. That is evidence enough to know that the true God is real in christianity. KEEP STICKEN UP GTP![8D]

[James S]

These last number of posts are one of the reasons I don't worship any god. People end up getting all bent out of shape in defence of their beliefs. A criticises B's religious text, B gets all upset about it and starts criticising A. It becomes personal, then gets violent.

Look at how many Muslims openly proclaimed they wished to kill Salman Rushdi when he brought out books bagging the Qaran.

James.

[no_leaf_clover]

ahh.. maybe this is what timeless meant about the "us/them" thing. maybe i should go back and look over those posts.

timmerdogg, *i used to be a christian*. i just eventually stopped believing in their bs. i started questioning  things, and a whole lot was revealed to me. that should answer a lot of your questions. ("You have never experienced the joy of christianity. How can you say stuff without any backround? I AM A CHRISTIAN. YOU ARE NOT. So wouldnt i know more about christianty than you? In the Bible it says that people will be blinded by Satan and dont want to see God.")

christians arent the only ones to experience joy, timmerdogg. no one's being blinded by satan except you, because satan is a tool of the church, and you're using him for exactly what he was made for: to try and scare others into believing. too bad i've already gotten over the whole christian thing or i might actually be scared. or not.. i wouldnt know.

[GTP]

quote:Originally posted by James S

These last number of posts are one of the reasons I don't worship any god. People end up getting all bent out of shape in defence of their beliefs. A criticises B's religious text, B gets all upset about it and starts criticising A. It becomes personal, then gets violent.

Well, I hope we don't have to resort to bloodshed in this topic![]
Actually James, the only personal attacks and critisisms I've seen so far in this topic did not come from the Christian side of the debate....

[no_leaf_clover]

i dont see any personal attacks coming from either 'side' x.x

[Eonnn]

If there is a god, and a heaven and hell. I dont see how sucking up to god is going to get you into heaven. Thats all the christians do, suck up to him, hoping god will let them into heaven.

And if god died for our sins, that means we can commit as many sins we like and still get into heaven as long as at the end before we die we say something like "I believe in you god, I repent my sins, I hope you forgive me"

[GTP]

quote:Originally posted by Eonnn

If there is a god, and a heaven and hell. I dont see how sucking up to god is going to get you into heaven. Thats all the christians do, suck up to him, hoping god will let them into heaven.

And if god died for our sins, that means we can commit as many sins we like and still get into heaven as long as at the end before we die we say something like "I believe in you god, I repent my sins, I hope you forgive me"

This is such an ignorant view of Christianity that it's not even worth replying to but I am anyway just because it's so offensive to me. I'll make this short and sweet. You obviously have no real understanding of the Christian faith, therefore your opinion means nothing. Your immaturity shows right through your warped views and I hope you realize that. OK, that's about it, I'm done wasting my time. You have a lot of learning to do, but I get the feeling you don't care about that. Let this topic rest, it's not going anywhere.

[RandomName]

This is a very good topic, this was fun to read.

My personal situation is that I am an agnostic. I simply cannot beleive that one powerful being created Earth and the universe. I simply cannot beleive in religon because many religons ignore ethics for crowd control/destruction. Christianity contradicts itself, Islam promotes violence, Wicca relates to gods in the most rediculous manner possible, as an always appearent being. Buhhdism is the only one I can see without any MAJOR fault to it.

Next question arises, If one of the religon is truly correct, then which one? Also, seeing as how most religons related to some kind of heaven or hell, if it was true that ALL religons were correct in some sense, then hell would have every "soul" that ever existed coming in at a constant rate. Beleiving in a religon of one kind is a severe sin in another meaning that all people have a one way ticket straight to hell.

Next topic, lets dabble in realism for a moment here. People have lives, and many people go to church. Many people pray to their god for forgiveness for things they have done wrong. REMEMBER WHEN I SAID PEOPLE HAVE LIVES? Anyone that does not go to church has a gurnateed trip straight to hell because there is always going to be that one person that forgets to pray on ther own, there will always be that one person in church that is there because they think they will be forgiven for misdeeds. Peoplewhom go to church and pray for forgiveness are the only people that even MINUTELY fit the criteria for "heaven", and half of them will always commit some other sin and forget to ask for forgiveness. Sure, people aren't perfect, but perfectionism is what religon is all about, you must be perfect in your beleifs and your moral status to make it to this "heaven". That is why there are WAY too few people that will ever make it into this "heaven" if it truly does exist, which in my honest opinion, definitely does not. The truth may be mistaken with the higher realms of the astral plane, but simply and plainly, the idea of a heaven is stupid, plain and simple. I can do the same thing but on a much smaller scale, I can probably convince a small child to do something rediclous in exchange for a lollipop. This is no different than what religon is trying to express.

Next, we have facts to discuess. YES TABLETS WERE DISCOVERED WITH ANCIENT WRITINGS. YES, WE HAVE FOUND BODIES. YES, WE HAVE FOUND PROOF OF A GREAT FLOOD. Guess what all of this comes down to? A NICE LONG STORYTELLING. You come up with proof Jesus Christ existed, ill give you a cookie. You prove to me he had all of his healing abilities, Ill give you two cookies. You prove to me he is the son of god and received his special abilities from such god and died taking all current sin with him to the afterlife, regardless of the fact we have many worse crimes and adultery all around us and prostitutes and drugs and assassinations and people spouting their corporate beleifs like a religon, then i will commit suicide.

ALL in all, this topic comes down to two final and stupid questions that crawls underneath everyones skin,WHY DO YOU BELEIVE(have faith in)GOD, and DOES GOD EXIST AND CAN YOU PROVE IT?

Anyone that has read this through, your commendable.

Good topic, have a  nice day[]

[Terry B]

Although I cannot say there is no contradiction in Christianity and don't understand Wiccan at all, your statement that Islam promotes violence is wrong. You would know if you really want to learn about the fact. Is there any religion that really promotes violence? All the major religion that I see don't promote violence. There are people that use violence in the name of religion to make their action seems justified, but it is not the essence of the religion. True, religion has been used as a powerful tools by some to further their agenda but this does not means that the religion promote that stuff. Just because we're promoted with that kind of understanding by the media doesn't mean that it's true as we all have seen numerous time.  I must echo GTP that commenting without understanding or with skewed understanding, we would not be able to analyse the situation correctly. Taking half fact from here or there doesn't count. Also I understand that Buddhism is technically more of a philosophy than a religion.

Maybe everyone has diferent answer as to why they believe in God. As to proving God exist, Sublime sums it well in previous page. It would be nice the ask the opposite too. Why they don't believe in God (they probably have different reason too). It would also be interesting to prove that God doesn't exist. Human mind can reason everything, which way they want. So much for using the limited intellect to grasp all that.

Would this help any? I don't know...

Again, believe what you will. To you your belief and to me my belief. It's not my job to change anyone belief (and I can't). If you really want to believe, trust me you will.

This thread could go on forever (this way or the other). []

Btw, don't confuse me with fact, learn what you can (and want).[]

Booyah!

[James S]

Terry B's got a good point about violence. It's not the religions that promote the violence, it's the fanatics misinterpreting them that do.

After 9/11 and the whole "lets hate muslims" thing started to arise, local islamic leaders in my city came out with some interesting statements that seem to hold true throughout the world. The term "Jihad" or Holy War, is not a term recognised or in any way promoted by the Qaran. According to the Qaran, Allah detests the taking of a life by another human. Such violence as we see being committed by Hamas, Al Qaeda, and other such militant Islamic groups go against the very core of the teachings of Islam. The Crusades of Old England, the Spanish Inquisition and the witchhunters of America are all examples of where Christianity has gone horribly wrong in the name of God.

People true to the real Islamic faith are happy peace-loving people. Exactly the same can be said for Christians who are true to the word of Christ. Buddhists, Taoists, are also the same. The cores of all the world's religions are all aligned with love, understanding and tolerance. Kind of like the same guiding spiritual force has inspired all of them!
Its the human element inside religions that turn them nasty.

James.

[npiv]

A couple of Posts Back, I saw a reccuring Christian argument that bothers me Immensely.

"We don't follow the old testament anymore, a lot of it is not appropriate"

Well, correct me If im wrong but those teachings came from god did they not? Who is the catholic Church to tell you they don't apply anymore. Quite Frankly Im happy they dont because the God protrayed in the Old testament is an evil badass.

Now, I myself am not religious, I believe however that Jesus was around, and was a man who much like Buddha found inner peace, and laid down basics for humanity to live in harmony and prosperity. Unfortunately, After he died, when people came together there was a need for priests to lead the worship session. Then before you know it, you needed bishops who needed to control the priests, and slowly but surely the hierarchy right up to the pope that is the catholic Church was formed.

Where, in any biblical writing does it say that a pope should be appointed as the closest man to god ?

The church has done nothing but manipulate the teachings, cut out what they didnt like so that there power could grow. I admit that they´ve calmed down a lot in modern times, But it is an organisation!


-----------------------------------------

1. banning of any scientific discoveries that didnt fit in with their statements.
2. Addition of the law Priests can´t marry. Thats right they added that after the priest´s sons stopped following their fathers footsteps but still inherited their fathers land (the churches land).
3. forceful conversion, the inquisition.
4. popes who shortly after the fall of rome, had orgies and already back then a big intrest in little boys.

In case you wanted arguments that was.[]

[Zandramas]

i think the original question was missed completely...
what has caused you to believe in your religion?

my question is, why do we as human beings, feel the need to believe in something..?
is it re-assurance that everything is going to be alright after death..is something we can lean on for support, like some people lean on their friends or family when they have problems...why do some people turn to god for help, and not realise that they have the potential to fix things themselves?


Zandramas

[no_leaf_clover]

one of the things i dislike most about the united states is how its first english colony was composed entirely of puritan christians. i would rank this event in the top 3 of the most important religious events of all time, for sure. those puritan beliefs have influenced the US in such a negative way..

when most children are brought up in families that aren't particularly religious or spiritual at all (most US families) they are almost *always* brought up some form of christian. it's like the US is christian by default by a good majority. people are raised not even to question god or the church. if my parents had taken me to church when i was young, i could bet you i wouldnt be posting this message right now. i would be going around saying 'be good and praise god or you'll go to hell' like most other christians. and my parents don't see anything wrong with this. they don't wonder why hell and satan were introduced so long after jesus had died. they don't even know the church used to teach reincarnation, and they *surely* don't realize that the concept of hell contradicts basic ideas about god (ie that he is infinitely forgiving). they aren't religious people, but they call themselves christians. why? probably for one or both of two main reasons.. the church has convinced them that they will in fact go to hell if they dont belief in god, or so people won't think negatively of them in their social life.

i believe this is why christianity has become so warped.. they set themselves up for it. people are raised ignorant of how things once were taught, and how the catholics have gone power-hungry over the past few hundred years. they are taught and preach things that don't make any sense at all when you think about them, but as long as they're praising god and buying themselves a ticket to heaven, it's all right. very few christians, deep down, worship god just because he's good. the church has just planted those seeds into our head.. "you'll go to hell..."...

if the puritans never came to america.. if a bunch of atheists found the USA instead, do you know how many christians would be in america? millions less. tens of millions less. i can say that with great certainty. christianity, islam, judaism.. they would all be down in numbers, and the people who actually chose the religion for themselves would be more involved and serious about it. the world might've been a whole lot more spiritual by now if it wasn't for the church. the astral dimensions and your etheric body might've been in texts book by now, instead of being dismissed as works of satan or such things by a majority of misinformed people who have heard of such 'occult' things.. the word 'occult' itself brings to mind many things that the church has done to sever spiritual development towards religions other than a monotheistic god-worshipping kind.

its getting late and ill probably regret whatever i was just rambling about in the morning.. er.. evening.. or noon or something.. its already almost 5 am over here.. and.. uh.... g'night... i guess..

[warlockyoshi]

quote:You have never experienced the joy of christianity. How can you say stuff without any backround? I AM A CHRISTIAN. YOU ARE NOT. So wouldnt i know more about christianty than you?  

How can you say this?  Do you know everone on this forum personally?Have you even met anyone else on this forum?  For your information I was a mormon for 10 years.  I have read the bible more than once.  I used to be a very devout christain that was until i realized that the people of the church were close mindedb fools who tried to control the very soul of my being.

[James S]

My 16 years of being a christian came to an end when I felt the churches I was in suffered the same kind of problems Warlockyoshi just described. I had another calling within me, from another spiritual source, and when I tried to follow this calling it usually ended up getting me in trouble with the church leaders.

I got lectured, I got prayed over on several occasions to be released from the "deceptions of the devil", all because I wasn't content to be one of their sheep. Some ministers seem to like the fact that their parishoners are like sheep, and they try to use scriptures to support that. To me being a sheep is being nothing more than a mindless follower.

This goes towards answering Warlockyoshi's original question, and Zandramas' (by the way, nice screen name, though I hope you don't start seeing stars under your skin too []).

I did have a life changing experience. A couple of them actually, both from the same source. It is my experiences that have given foundation to my beliefs. I do not however, use my beliefs as an excuse for not taking responsibility for my own actions or my own problems.

We're NOT sheep, we do have the potential to fix things for ourselves, and I've always disliked people using religions or beliefs as a means to escape their responsibilities.

no_leaf_clover,
Its interesting what you say about the puritan founders of America.
Australians tend to be a lot more non-commital when it comes to religions. But then, Australia was first colonised by convicts!

James.

[no_leaf_clover]

lol.. james, we have something in common: both of our countries were founded by people exiled from britain. turns out you got the better exiles, i guess []