feeling vs. logic to get lucid

[madmagus]

I wanted to share a thought that bubbled to the surface, after the last two threads, about how 'feeling' the dream rather than waiting for waking logic to kick in was what we should really be focused on.

How Theta 'feels' could be the key for triggering lucidity rather than the 'logic-based' identification of dream signs, et al.  I believe that deep meditation is especially helpful here (meditation in the Theta state), because it gives us conscious practice in dream awareness.  This would also explain why Mindfulness helps LDing, because it emphasizes how living in the waking world 'feels', so the contrast between it and dream awareness begins to stand out, even to the NP persona, which triggers the 'Oh, shite, this is a dream' response.

We still have the hurdle that we have been discussing in the nearby threads regarding the NP persona, but I think the more conscious recognition of what the Theta state 'feels' like, the better our chances of nighttime lucidity.  

We have to remember that for a dream sign to trigger lucidity we must already be conscious enough for our logical, waking mind to come to that recognition.  Feelings, on the contrary, are emotional responses, responses that the NP persona is quite well equipped to handle without our conscious mind's input.  Allow the 'feeling' of the dream to trigger a logical response.  In other words, we are playing to our strengths while dreaming if we approach it with a feeling-based modality (emotional) rather than expecting our NP persona to suddenly gain logical insight.

How many times have you read about a 'Natural' lucid dreamer who says, "I don't know how I get lucid.  I can just 'feel' that I'm dreaming."

Work your meditation.  Work with your Mindfulness.  'Feel' what it's like to dream and to be awake.

Thanks for reading.

[Nameless]

I totally agree with this. We can and should certainly use our logic to assimilate our experiences after the fact. This helps us process in the here and now wide-awake conscious part of our minds. However I whole heartedly agree that the NP experience is much more responsive to our feelings/emotions.

Bravo Madmagus, another great observation!!

[Lumaza]

 The way to strengthen your LD awareness is to learn how to extend and hold on to a thought or focus. This all begins through the act of "imagination".

In the thread I created called "The Doorway", found at his link, I show you how to do just that.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/the_doorway-t46013.0.html

Being "aware" in general all the time is very important. Unfortunately, these days people seem to be too busy or pre-occupied with or by their personal devices, that they don't know what is going on around and sometimes even inside of themselves. When you are aware and "observe" what is happening, you can see and understand the "whys" as well  This helps you react to whatever is occurring in a calm and rational manner, no matter what the situation may be. That also trains you how to act and react to any NP situations you may find yourself as well, especially "Retrievals".

[madmagus]

Thanks for the responses.  I'll certainly read the link, Lumaza.  I agree that focus is critical.  Do you feel that extended work with the imagination is giving us a similar experience to being in the dream realm, thus strengthening our connection to it, and that we become more overtly conscious of dreams, while dreaming, because of this?  Interesting take if so.

To extend my original point, when I read about perceptions people have about Mindfulness, people seem to believe that just being aware of your awareness is enough (perhaps it is speaking purely spiritually).  But I never found this to be sufficient when it comes to lucid dreaming.  If it were, I think many more people would find themselves LDing all the time, seeing that millions are working on their mindfulness.  So many LD teachers love to say "just be present during the day, and you'll be present in your dreams."  Well, we can all see how well that advice works for LDers, if forums are any indication.

Wake-induced experiences (WILDs, OOBE, Phasing, etc.) are another matter, since they don't rely on the NP Self's dream-time recognition of events.

For DILD events to be consistent, practical, contrast must be created by paying specific attention to our 5 senses (call is ADA if you like), to include the feel of gravity on our bodies.  You must 'know' how it feels to be present in your waking Self, in your physical body.  Otherwise, your NP Self has nothing with which to contrast its own experience.  How it 'feels' to be awake is, I believe, a big deal for lucid dreamers who rely on DILDs to access the NP.

Of course, just my perspective.

[madmagus]

Read your linked post.  Very nice.  I'm still working my way through the entire post, as it is quite lengthy.  Even the added information later in the thread bears reading.  Thanks for the link.  It's similar to my approach using meditation, though your focused, active imagination approach seems more practical, seeing as, on any given day, my meditation may or may not get me deep enough for Phasing.  It makes me want to finally finish reading Jung's Red Book.

[Lumaza]

Thanks for the responses.  I'll certainly read the link, Lumaza.  I agree that focus is critical.  Do you feel that extended work with the imagination is giving us a similar experience to being in the dream realm, thus strengthening our connection to it, and that we become more overtly conscious of dreams, while dreaming, because of this?  Interesting take if so.

Yes, I do. A deep Phase/self Hypnosis, meditative state will take you to a Dream realm experience if you "allow" it to. I put the word "allow" in quotation marks because that is a very important part of Aping. Learning to "allow" what's going to happen, losing all expectations and just "going with the flow" and lastly passively observing all, until you know the time is right to engage in the experience, I feel, are all pertinent parts to this whole practice in general. That all comes from constant practice, learning how to hone your skills. Just like with everything else we wish to learn about in life, this takes practice, patience and perseverance. To experience a full OBE exit, become aware in a Dream or even have a successful Phase session wherein you find yourself in a realm as vivid as this physical one and sometimes even more vivid. All of those things are among the most incredible experience a person can have.  Going even deeper and learning how to have those experiences repeatedly opens up doors that you never knew existed.  

To extend my original point, when I read about perceptions people have about Mindfulness, people seem to believe that just being aware of your awareness is enough (perhaps it is speaking purely spiritually).  But I never found this to be sufficient when it comes to lucid dreaming.  If it were, I think many more people would find themselves LDing all the time, seeing that millions are working on their mindfulness.  So many LD teachers love to say "just be present during the day, and you'll be present in your dreams."  Well, we can all see how well that advice works for LDers, if forums are any indication.

I know this won't make sense to you, but not everyone has "agreed" to become conscious in their Dreams, at all levels of their being. That last part is important "at all levels of their being". I have worked with people on a constant basis here in their achieving some level of "non local/ordinary states of consciousness. That name was penned by "Stanislov Grof". He has great youtube videos, just search his name. Another master in the field is "Robert Moss". to find out more about these two gentlemen, use the search engine on the upper right hand corner of you page here. Just type their names in box, push search and you will find all the conversations we have had here about them on the Astral Pulse Forums.
Back to my comment above now. I have found through working with many people that on the outside, let's call it the "physical side", they want and strive to find success in this practice. But at a deeper level, they are being "blocked". They don't know why, but many times this block will halt any type of successful experience they could have.

My better half, MJ, made it known to me years ago that she wants to put her head down on her pillow and have the next thing be her awaking refreshed and ready for another day. She doesn't want to remember her Dreams. She just wants to go to sleep and then wake up to the next day. I have a few friends that I see every year at my shows that talk to me about their constant bouts with Sleep Paralysis. I tell them to just observe it all and see it through and they will soon find themselves exiting their bodies. They won't have any of that talk. They are terrified of their SP. Every time they have it it always leads to fear scenarios. If they could learn to bypass that "fear", they will find that a treasure trove awaits them. I have been talking to them about this annually for about 4 years though and they still are experiencing their SP induced  "night terrors".

As I have found, awaking on a regular basis consciously aware in your Dreams is not always a good thing. Many times I have found that my LD/nocturnal experiences, have a huge effect on the next waking day. There are times that I awaken in the morning here in the physical and need to get my "bearings". I don't know what reality I am in. Whatever my last experience was that I was conscious of during my Dream simulation, it was so close to my physical real time life here that when I awake I was confused.

Another thing that I think could be a big reason for people not becoming Lucid in their Dreams or even having success in this field in general is that are many things you will learn that will have a profound effect on your current mindset. Not everyone is ready for that in their lives at the moment. Many of the authors of LDing, Astral Projecting and even meditation can tell you how it changed their lives completely. Once again, not everyone is ready for that change.

I can refer you to another thread I wrote here that really sums it up.
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/tests_quests_and_challenges-t46546.0.html

Three years later, MJ is still with me here. The Doctors can't understand it. They gave her 8-12 months to live. Chemo and radiation were only going to possibly prolong her life for a few months more. She refused both of them on the grounds that they weren't going to "cure" it.
Her cancer is back with a vengeance now and will soon take her life. I was told this months ago while in a Phase session, even before we went back to see the Doctors again. I also was told that I can't do anything about it, so I shouldn't even try. To stay or go has always been "her" decision. On the outside, her physical side, she is fighting with all she has. I know what the "inside" has already decided though. So I have been trying to make her time remaining here as comfortable and happy as I can. Just a few days ago we got a new Maltese puppy. MJ's smiles and happiness were priceless. There are many many people that would not understand that kind of thinking or mindset.

[LightBeam]

I am deeply sorry to hear about MJ, Lumaza! I hope she knows through you that her journey will continue. Of course for our physical personalities is much harder to comprehend such occurrences. Years ago I tried multiple times healing my dad. I was in full blown APs, fully alert, I found him, I saw within his body the problems. I started energy treatment and shortly after his energy pushed me away, like an invisible blast. I understood immediately, but I refused to accept that his NP personality had already made a decision and was not allowing external interference. I was devastated and kept trying and every time the same happened.

I read on another thread regarding Frank Keppel, why was he not able to heal himself when he was so advanced. Well, even AP advanced people may not be able to heal themselves if their NP personality had made a different decision. But aside from that, there are many reasons why even in AP state we can accomplish things that we want. Because this is a much more complicated matter than it seems. Not so black and white. Simply wanting something will not do. We may have deep beliefs that contradict what we want on the surface. We may have fears that may be blocking what we want on the surface. All of us are still learning. No individual personality know it all. Only the sum of all know it all. Until we merge with the sum of all, we continue learning here, there, anywhere our paths take us.

On the topic of this thread, I wanted to add that I personally can not have full AP without allowing my body to fall asleep. That includes my mind as well. But through techniques explained in Buhlman's books and suggestions before falling asleep, my consciousness gets awaken during the night. Not my body, so my brain waves remain low, but my awareness if fully awake. Now, that state I can not achieve immediately upon falling asleep. I can never remain fully awake when transitioning to brain asleep. Not many can even during deep meditation. But you can try the methods others give you. I can only achieve visions and sounds sometimes, moving scenes also, but I am still just an observant. I cant get completely "out" so to speak. That only happens when my body is fully asleep and my mind feels like it has been asleep for a while. Then I either get awareness within a dream or get vibrations in the middle of the night which awake my consciousness only. Give Buhlman's techniques a try, but you have to be consistent for at least three to four weeks to see results.

[madmagus]

Thanks Lumaza, Lightbeam.  

Sorry to hear about MJ's situation.  It sounds like you've found a positive way to approach it.  

I'm sure I am over simplifying some of my statements.  I usually don't think in terms of a person's NP persona having contrary perspectives from their waking Self.  I have not spent much time digesting the idea of the NP persona as being as independent as discussed here.

I started on my journey back in '74 when I took a high school course called "Mysticism" and read Paramahansa Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi and started reading along those lines and meditating.  But I grew up in a military household and then went military myself and then went police.  The two world views were not in sync.  I'm a true Sagittarius, a split personality; I knew I had one of two paths through life to take, a military one or one of an artist.  I chose military.  It took a time to start focusing on the metaphysical, despite my efforts at meditation.  I joined the Rosicrucians while still in the military, but my mindset was still trained to pragmatism and logic, not topics related to the NP.  It didn't stick, despite AP being part of the Rosicrucian curriculum.

I blatantly have swiveled through a variety of views on the topic through the years, and I still find myself a bit adrift at times, since I am still looking for the 'one' right answer.  I know from experience that the NP is a very subjective environment, but my logical mind still feels the need for objective evaluation.  That, I think, more than anything else, has retarded my growth in AP/LD.  Of course, my peripheral neuropathy has a major say in the process as well.  I can get into the NP, both directly (meditation) and through dreams, but it's guaranteed that my neuropathy will snatch me back almost every time.  It does allow for a light sleep though, lol.  It's is said that LDing is like walking a tightrope between sleep and wakefulness; peripheral neuropathy is like a trip wire that you can't see until it snags your pants and you're already falling.

I have looked my entire life for a consistent ideology, or I suppose cosmology would be more appropriate, but my logical self will not allow any pre-defined religion/philosophy to hold up in my head.  They all have logic faults.  I've read in the past some posts you've made, Lumaza, regarding imagination, and I thought I understood them, but I was looking at them, as all things, from a purely logical bent.  Rereading your stuff seems to have opened my eyes to a few things regarding imagination that I thought I understood.  Logically, you and others have shared straight forward truths, but many of them require experience to be truly understood.  Intellectual understanding isn't enough.  I think most people fall somewhere into this general category.  

Artists, in my mind, are a perfect example of intuitive misunderstanding.  If you ask an artist who is superb at drawing images directly out of their head what it is that they do to make it happen, they will look at you strangely and say, "well, i just see it and draw it."  It doesn't occur (generalization) to them to explain that they are able to superimpose the image from their mind's eye right onto the page and then, essentially, trace right over what they have projected.  It doesn't occur to them to explain this, because the process to them is absolutely natural.  It doesn't occur to them that anyone would do it any differently, because they have no other frame of reference.  I think it is the same with teaching about imagination, visualization and AP.  Those who are naturally great at it discuss it in casual terms that make sense to them.  Those less inclined have to struggle to even understand the logic, and it takes a lot of effort to find out for themselves, through trial and error, what the teacher actually said, what they actually meant.  Only time will bring that kind of understanding.  As you and others have pointed out, not many people have that dedication, despite their overt desire.

So, I understand, from personal experience, what you mean when you say some people simply are not ready for certain information.

I have had a similar issue, LightBeam, regarding the mind awake/body asleep necessity.  I think that after rereading Lumaza's posts, I may (may) be at a point where I can get past that limitation.  We'll see.

[Lumaza]

I am deeply sorry to hear about MJ, Lumaza! I hope she knows through you that her journey will continue. Of course for our physical personalities is much harder to comprehend such occurrences. Years ago I tried multiple times healing my dad. I was in full blown APs, fully alert, I found him, I saw within his body the problems. I started energy treatment and shortly after his energy pushed me away, like an invisible blast. I understood immediately, but I refused to accept that his NP personality had already made a decision and was not allowing external interference. I was devastated and kept trying and every time the same happened.

Thank you Lightbeam. I am happy to see that you understand this. I constantly get blocked from trying to help people I know here. It's weird though, I experience Retrievals all the time, even when I attempt to aide MJ or a great friend of mine in Oklahoma that is suffering from acute memory loss.
Just the other day, I awoke in in a mild SP. I made my intent as I awaited the exit. My intent was to help MJ and the whole episode ended then and there. I find all kinds of roadblocks and obstacles. when I try to help someone that on a higher level doesn't wish the help. Many times I find myself "diverted" to a whole different situation or experience.
In MJ's case though, I was "told", point blank what the situation really is. So, I find myself helping total strangers in Retrievals, yet I am  blocked from helping people I care about. That doesn't seem fair, but that's just the way it is!

[Lumaza]

 Thank you Madmagus!

Madmagus, I am a Sagittarius as well.

It looks like you have a great grip on what's what here. You have been tuned all your life to follow this path. Now that you are here, forget everything you have heard about other's experiences. Drop all your "expectations" and just go "observe". Take in what you are given. Don't questions it now. Just observe and report. That way you can develop and find tune a technique to achieve success in this Art that is tailor made for you. Take everything you have learned as kind of a blueprint. But in the end, it is "you" that builds the house!