LDs are not OBEs

[Pauli2]

Robert Waggoner, author of Lucid Dreaming on the subject of LD is not OBE:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuyDBH_6c6E&feature=related

Somewhere around 1:25, Waggoner even makes a reference to Monroe on this issue.

Interesting that one more of the big authors, beside Buhlman, makes this reflection.

[Summerlander]

Oh, Pauli2. You are so naive...

Here's a more reliable source:
http://www.lucidity.com/NL32.OBEandLD.html

An even more reliable source...enter the OOBE-state yourself and draw your own conclusions. There is no solid evidence separating the two apart from the manner in which they are entered. Both are products of REM sleep. They might as well be the same thing which is reflected on mental states of the brain.

Any claims that they are separate phenomena is pure postulation. Besides, they are merely descriptive terms for the sake of communication.

[Astral316]

So..

OBE: Solid environment, waking awareness passes through 'transitory state'

LD: Manipulation-friendly environment, waking awareness occurs within dream

The problem is the few times I've become aware within a dream they were solid environments... just as stable, if not moreso, than my OBE's. Also, this guy is telling me I can't manipulate the environment once I exit the vibe state? I don't believe that. If there's a prevalence of characteristics that belong to one but occur in another, it's not a valuable distinction. Just my 2 cents... though I do agree that generally, OBE= awareness comes before experience (vibes or void) and LD = awareness comes after.

[Summerlander]

Also, this guy is telling me I can't manipulate the environment once I exit the vibe state? I don't believe that.

I don't believe this either. I've separated after having the vibes and the environment, although extremely hyper-real, was malleable and changed like a dream. For instance, I shifted my attention from a corner of the room, and, when I looked back, it was different. The behaviour of the reality there has more to do with quantum logic than our logic. Nevertheless, no matter how vague or how vivid it seems, it is metaphysical in nature...it's the world of thoughts...dreams...imagination...

The vagueness or the vividness is reliant on the degree of focus that we have. Simple.

[Pauli2]

Oh, Pauli2. You are so naive...

degrading

[Summerlander]

^^ But that's the impression you give me, though...

For someone to open a thread called "LDs are not OBEs", which is a wild claim, and, on top of that say: "Interesting that one more of the big authors, beside Buhlman, makes this reflection." - I mean...come on!

[Jilt]

I've had hundreds of both and in my opinion they are the same. I wonder if many of these authors have experience with both or are just parroting what has been said before.

If you have a wake-induced lucid dream it's identical to an OOBE except you skip the room phase and may feel like you're sinking instead of rising. With both you may hear a click/pop and (for the first few years) the vibrations and odd sounds in the room.

Even Buhlman thinks our astral body separates from the physical when we sleep (as I do to) so in effect all dreaming states are OOB, we just bring our waking consciousness with us when we're having a LD or OOBE.

[Rudolph]

Any claims that they are separate phenomena is pure postulation. Besides, they are merely descriptive terms for the sake of communication.

Postulate away!, I say. I also agree with the idea behind the subject. I have experienced plenty of LD's and plenty of conscious exit OBEs and I gotta say... they do have very notable and qualitatively different characteristics. I think we need a better vocabulary for this. Chicken and beef are both meat but they are very different. It is not so wild a claim to observe that they are different.

[Pauli2]

I've had hundreds of both and in my opinion they are the same. I wonder if many of these authors have experience with both or are just parroting what has been said before.

Even Buhlman thinks our astral body separates from the physical when we sleep (as I do to) so in effect all dreaming states are OOB, we just bring our waking consciousness with us when we're having a LD or OOBE.

Hmm...

Here is a video with Buhlman. Listen to the 3 minutes around 38:15 - 41:15.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5v0SNa68gKw


Buhlman says that LD and OBE are connected to each other, but they are
not the same. Though, an LD can be upgraded to an OBE.

An OBE is something different. You are Out-Of-Body. Not in a dream.

OBE. You are hovering a few inches from your physical body.

Does Buhlman's energy shift ring false to you?

[Xanth]

Oh, Pauli2. You are so naive...

Nono, he's allowed to believe whatever he wants.  It doesn't make him naive... it makes him in a disagreement with you.   That's all. 

Meanwhile, Summerlander, you and I can believe something else. 
*YOU* and *I* just see things differently... we also see things through our own experiences, and not based solely around someone elses.

[Jilt]

OK, I listened to this Buhlman segment but I'm still not convinced they are different (however, I tend to have WILDs so there may be a different dynamic with those because I'm not waking up within the dream, I never lose consciousness like an OOBE).

I listened to Buhlman yesterday in another video and he said that when we dream (any kind of dream) we separate from the physical body into an astral body so my natural conclusion is all these experiences are OOB (however, I'm open to the idea that we generate an etheric body from the astral body that's even finer as we go into these different dimensions but that can still be done from the classic OOB or WILD state).

It's splitting hairs and I'm not sure why I keep responding to this question - probably because I thought the subject line was too provocative not to.

[Summerlander]

I've had hundreds of both and in my opinion they are the same. I wonder if many of these authors have experience with both or are just parroting what has been said before.

They're parrots!

Chicken and beef are both meat but they are very different. It is not so wild a claim to observe that they are different.

Absolutely! Different types of meat! And the differences I've seen is that they both have different tasty entrances. But they are still just meat. LDs, for example, skip the abode replica which is unconsciously created from your expectation in OOBEs. However, they are both dissociative from the physical body in the sense that you are not aware of being in the body in the majority of cases. Even in vague dreams you get the awareness of being somewhere else other than the physical body.

I'd also like to say that both LDs and OOBEs can be as vague and as hyper-real as each other. In fact, I've even had non-lucid dreams that were so vivid and so seemingly real in quality that I thought I was actually somewhere physical. Non-lucid dreams have also proved to be quite capable of showing signs of precognition or even telepathy.

So, you see people, it is just a matter of disassociating from the body and perceiving that which remains unseen most of the time. It is actually us that have various modes of perceiving in those altered states. We have varying degrees of focus and awareness. The data itself, which we receive, remains what it is. For instance, when we say "lucid dream" we are actually wrong. Why is it an erroneous statement? Because we are the ones that are lucid...NOT the "dream". It's like a car crashing into another and the driver of the car that was hit says "He hit me". The fact of the matter is that the person didn't get hit...it was the car.

In www.obe4u.com we merely call it "the Phase State". It is synonymous with (OOBEs/AP/LDs).

[Rudolph]

they are both dissociative from the physical body

Right. Therein lies the problem. Just falling asleep might even qualify as an oobe. The term is too broad.

We need a more descriptive term like maybe:
Conscious Waking Awareness Projection -- CWAP

[Summerlander]

Now that I agree with! ^^

The "OOBE" term is indeed too broad. But then again so is the term "Phase State", but that doesn't stop Michael Raduga from using it!

I don't agree with the new name you came up with though. It sounds naff.

[Ident]

I agree, it sounds completely cwap.

[Rudolph]

well, 'conscious' and 'waking' could be considered redundant so one letter could be eliminated and we get CAP or WAP but neither sounds as cool as OOBE (as long as it is pronounced 'ooobeee').

[Xanth]

Right. Therein lies the problem. Just falling asleep might even qualify as an oobe. The term is too broad.

You inadvertently hit the nail on the head.
The problem is with the term is that it's pigeonholed everyone's perception EVER SINCE Robert Monroe coined it back in the 50s/60s.

In my opinion, it really is JUST THAT SIMPLE.  "Just falling asleep" *IS* a projection of consciousness (I refuse to use the term OBE anymore).

[Jarrod]

What about CNPE (Conscious Non-Physical Experience)

[Summerlander]

Start using it and see how popular it becomes.

[manwesulimo2004]

What about CNPE (Conscious Non-Physical Experience)

The Acronym should be easier to pronounce if you want it to become popular. How about CoNPEx?

[CFTraveler]

What about CNPE (Conscious Non-Physical Experience)

Hee hee it sounds like corn-pee.   

[Rudolph]

What about CNPE (Conscious Non-Physical Experience)

As long as we pronounce it 'snippy' that is pretty good.

But it still does not delineate the LD vs OBE experience... in the "going unconscious then getting more conscious spontaneously outside of my conscious control" type sense, versus the "I am now fully conscious (at least I think I am) and now I am moving outside my body -- there, now I am out" type thing....

Quite the dilemma... but I think we're up to it....

We have the technology....

[Jilt]

Jarrod, with a WILD (wake-induced lucid dream) you never lose consciousness so in that way it is similar to an OOBE. Next time you feel like you're ready to separate, don't try to but retain consciousness by focusing your vision at your third eye and you'll go directly to the 3D black world (just skipping the room phase).

I like "Conscious Non-Physical Experience" by the way. Sums it all up quite nicely. Getting it down to one word would be ideal so the terms phasing, projecting, going astral work too.

[Jarrod]

When you say focus your vision at your third eye do you mean some imagined point in front of you and slightly up or actually trying to point your eyes at your forehead...cuz that kind of hurts?

I'll start using CNPE "snippy" in my posts and replies and see if it catches on.

[Xanth]

When you say focus your vision at your third eye do you mean some imagined point in front of you and slightly up or actually trying to point your eyes at your forehead...cuz that kind of hurts?

Try this Jarrod.

Take your thumb and press it on the spot where you think your third eye location is.
Remember and memorize the sensation where it happens.

Then, remove your thumb and try to duplicate that feeling without it there.
That will be you focusing your "vision" at your third eye. 

It has nothing to do with your physical eyes.