Raduga's Phase is LD-ing, not OBE!

[Pauli2]

I thought Raduga was teaching how-to-OBE and used his own label;
"The Phase" on OBEs, but apparently he is teaching some kind of LD
technique, which is NOT an OBE technique.

To Raduga, the Phase is all in the mind, and NOT related to physical reality,
not even a bad copy of reality.


From Raduga's book School of Out-of-Body Travel, page 159:

"For example, in the phase, it is not possible to fly around to locations in physical world,
although it may seem so, the locations that are experienced are produced within the mind.

Nor is it possible to pinch someone in the phase and then to find a bruise on the person
while in reality."


I find this very interesting, as I thought Raduga was teaching something else,
but to find that his method is more a kind of LD, unrelated to the RTZ, was an
eyeopener to me.

Raduga goes as far as invalidating Monroe's pinch!

The Phase - it is ONLY in the mind!

Makes me laugh.

[Xanth]

What's with the crusade, Pauli?

[Astral316]

I thought Raduga was teaching how-to-OBE and used his own label;
"The Phase" on OBEs, but apparently he is teaching some kind of LD
technique, which is NOT an OBE technique.

What is this technique that is different from an OBE technique? You go on to quote this random guy's beliefs about the "phase" but that has nothing to do with your opening statement. It doesn't even clarify a distinction between LDs and OBEs.

[Stookie_]

Pauli, I think most of us know that AP involves both subjective and objective experience, that one can seem like the other, and that a subjective experience can be turned into an objective one with some focus and control. So what are you trying to convince us of?

[Pauli2]

There is a blog entry made by Ulysses Ronquillo, who brings this matter into more light.
He knows some more facts and writes:

"...Michael Raduga. ... He does not believe that OBEs are real. ...
He believes that NDEs, alien abduction and all the rest are identical "simulations"."


When I read further, things may not be as clear cut as I first thought. In fact, it seems
that Raduga leaves the door open for OBEs to be real, but he holds a skeptic mind about
this issue.

(Also, some of the blog entry comments were insightful.)


Stookie_, The Phase method has attracted some attention and I am one of those who
has believed it to induce OBEs. I would have liked to know a little better exactly what
I was expected to experience in advance. And yes, I read the methods in the book last
year, but had difficulties with absorbing the content (perhaps due to translation?).

Assume the following.

* I read Monroe's JOOB, and wanted to figure out if I can have an OBE.
* I find a book, which uses the concept out-of-body.
* I start to practice the book's method.
* I'm very poor at the method and it also requires a lot of time from my side to get any kind of success.

I later find out that the creator of the method, doesn't consider OBEs to be real.
And the method, isn't it aimed at inducing LDs instead?

Would I have wanted in advance to know the foundation for the method? Certainly.
If my foundation was Monroe, and I later tried to use a method which could be
considered to be invalidating the Monroe path, I would have wanted to know that.

Stookie_, is that an answer to your question?

[Ssergiu]

What he actually means is that everything is simulated. Even the reality you see in an OOBE is not the real one, which is kind of true. Hardly can someone see a person in reality exactly what he or she is doing and also to be true. You're more likely to see the thoughts from that person manifesting in your OOBE. I guess he believes that OOBEs are just a thing of the mind and nothing else. However, I believe we are somehow connected, but we cannot see exactly what's going on in reality when in the Phase.

EDIT:

I later find out that the creator of the method, doesn't consider OBEs to be real.
And the method, isn't it aimed at inducing LDs instead?

No. Just because Raduga doesn't believe OOBEs are real, it does not mean his methods are for LD's and that he has never experienced OOBEs. You do not need to believe in OOBEs to experience one. Many people have OOBEs without even having ever thought about it. I can show you how to pray to God, but I can't tell you if He is real or not, but this does not mean the method I showed you was for something else.

EDIT 2:

Also, for the last time. OOBEs do not feel like LD's, they are totally different, I agree, but they, in general, are the same one thing. The awarer you become and realize it the better your experience gets, that meaning LD's turning into OOBEs. Objectively, dreams, Ld's and OOBEs are the same one thing. Subjectively, they're not. Each of them feel totally different. It is all a pie, it only depends how much sugar you put in it.

[Volgerle]

To Raduga, the Phase is all in the mind

he is right, it is all (in the) mind as consciousness is the base of all realities, where's the prob?

[Xanth]

Pretty much.
Even this physical reality happens ENTIRELY within your mind.

Everything you experience in this physical reality is just data that enters your mind via the 5 physical senses and is processed by the brain/mind/consciousness.

[ether2]

i dont know exactly what this phase is as i dont or havent read any books on phaseing or what ever ya call it i was lucky enough to be shown the minds abilities without the use of books and CD's...

but some of these pricks that teach how to raise energy/meditate etc in certain ways are stealing the energy/processes that one trys to do, it's like sexual energy vampires same shlt man thiefs ripping ya off...
anyway they are pretty well shut off now as work over the last few days clarifies this ...

BY NO-MEANS AM I MAKEING ASSUMPTIONS TO THIS PARTICULAR PROCESS!...

good luck

love all

[Summerlander]

Raduga uses the term "out of body experience" to be exactly that: an " " " EXPERIENCE.

You have to understand that he is not concretely claiming to know what it is. I have spoken to Raduga and it has come to my understanding that, from his personal experience, and the many Phasers he has come across, that he deems such experiences as PROBABLY products of the subconscious. He bases this on the fact that we literally know more than what we think we know and he holds that our minds can create environments many times better than objective reality.

He may not be a big fan of theory but he is not affirming that "it is all in the head" as the absolute truth. His experiences lead him to think it's the most likely possibility. Each one to their own, Pauli.

As for Robert Monroe...Raduga is not necessarily discrediting him. The woman Monroe pinched in the Phase was indeed bruised in actuality...but whether one of her kids pinched her while she wasn't looking or the possibility that she bruised herself prior to meeting with Monroe in order to please him is subject to debate. Even Monroe himself stated that he didn't exactly know what had taken place...

Now...recently I heard that Bedeekin has had some sort of breakthrough with the Phase state. To cut a long story short, remember my PowerPoint analogy as to how reality could be structured (inspired by Campbell's TOE)? Well, it turns out that he's been reading the TOE too and now he claims that in Slide Master, he had the "apply to all" option that allowed him to make changes to Normal View...in plain English...he reckons the nonphysical template allowed him to make direct changes to physical matter reality.

I'm dubious of his claims. Recently, I've been experiencing accurate replicas of my house - even smashed up things in my neighbours' kitchen - nothing like this happened in reality or affected the course of events in the space-time continuum in anyway, of course. Another thing I was wondering - and I'm calling Bedeekin out on this one! - if in the Phase I get Stacey's house keys from her purse (where she keeps them most of the time) and place them in the backgarden, will she suddenly say to me in waking life "honey, sometimes I put the keys outside so burglars won't find it in the house"?

I'd like to hear what other experinents he's done that made him arrive at this conclusion and have a sudden paradigm shift after 20 years of experience, or if he's just getting excited with Campbell's big toe...

I only have 3 years of experience with the Phase state...so far the only evidence I've experienced is the possibility of telepathy and precognition...never the possibility of altering physical reality.

But, me, being the open-minded sceptic that I am, will attempt to recreate such experiment...

The only thing that is making me want to explore this is the fact that I experienced "poltergeist activity" and was even "possessed" at the age of 7 (which coincided with my parents' turbulent relationship at the time and I've got my theories on this) - something that Bedeekin scoffed at when he first heard of it because he hadn't experienced it himself. I repeat, wish brings me back to the point I was trying to make in this thread...HE HADN'T EXPERIENCED IT.

Well, there you go...that's my two cents.

[Astral316]

he is right, it is all (in the) mind as consciousness is the base of all realities, where's the prob?

I'm pretty sure he's trying to put over the idea that LDs and OBEs are clear cut, metaphysically defined states of consciousness... poorly, however, because the "it's all in the mind" debate is irrelevant to proving the theory valid.

No. Just because Raduga doesn't believe OOBEs are real, it does not mean his methods are for LD's and that he has never experienced OOBEs. You do not need to believe in OOBEs to experience one. Many people have OOBEs without even having ever thought about it. I can show you how to pray to God, but I can't tell you if He is real or not, but this does not mean the method I showed you was for something else.

Spot on. Do we need to explain the difference between interpretation and truth? The latter isn't something you're going to be able to quote from a book.

[Summerlander]

BINGO, Astral!

[Pauli2]

Another thing I was wondering - and I'm calling Bedeekin out on this one!

Maybe you could start another thread on that subject?


Regarding Raduga's method, what's important to me, was if he's invalidating the
Monroe concept: "I'm more than my physical body."

If so, I would have liked to know that in advance of spending time on the Raduga method.
If the phase is only in the mind/brain/head, then there is no afterlife and nothing outside the
physical world. But perhaps Raduga has more to say on this matter?

[Summerlander]

Maybe you could start another thread on that subject?

No. Not really. I don't think it is worthy of a thread. But I will add this though (and Bedeekin will know what I'm talking about): I've been getting a six pack too! but not because I've been listening to some "oversoul" in the Phase state. I've been working out everyday. No pain no gain!

Regarding Raduga's method, what's important to me, was if he's invalidating the
Monroe concept: "I'm more than my physical body."

Raduga is not even there. In fact, Raduga is very pragmatic about this and he clearly states his thoughts on this. There is no evidence for this, but, at the same time, he doesn't rule it out.

If so, I would have liked to know that in advance of spending time on the Raduga method.
If the phase is only in the mind/brain/head, then there is no afterlife and nothing outside the
physical world. But perhaps Raduga has more to say on this matter?

uh...the afterlife...Raduga won't have much to tell you on this other than the fact that there is no real evidence for it (though he states that it is not his wish to disprove it). I had a lot to say on the matter though and I will show you what I posted there on the subject:

"The afterlife...hmmm...

I have been pondering over this concept for a long time now and if someone was to ask me if there is an afterlife, my answer would be: "Maybe". I can't be sure even though I experience the Phase. I suspect that, when we die, we go back to being in the same state that we were before we were born, whether existent or non-existent.

Many people fantasise about an afterlife of otherworldly exploration, contact with other beings and the eventuation of their wishes. The Phase state is often surmised to be a glimpse of the immediate afterlife even though it is very much a condition of being alive in which the brain is active - more so than the delta waves of deep dreamless sleep - and the cerebral areas associated with waking states are often found to be functional during lucidity.

If death really is the cessation of being - and thus the end of experience and cognition - then it is also the end of suffering. You won't know that you are dead, you won't know that you are not suffering, you won't know that you are not perceiving, and you won't know anything. In conclusion: there is no you!

People find this hard to imagine and some even go as far as to say that such notion is more incredible than the idea of an afterlife in the spirit realms. Some even say that non-existence makes no sense. But the truth is that we were dead before we were born, alas, we already know what death is like. This could mean that death is simply going back to the pre-birth state.

Theoretically speaking, what constitutes us becomes something else which gives rise to the possibility of rebirth. I'll use the computer analogy in that, if death means deletion of a file (sentient being), the information it contains goes in the recycle bin, where, overtime, the data that constitutes it gets reconfigured. Being absent from life or any sort of interaction is a notion that can convey a sense of much needed rest from the living perspective, but, in death, you are not even resting - you are beyond that!

When something as important as the cerebral cortex is damaged, for example, one may very easily slip into a long-term coma. Individuals who have woken up from these were oblivious to how much time had passed due to their lapse in consciousness. Because they were unaware of the time that passed while unconscious, the coma experience from their experience was losing their senses in one moment and regaining awareness the next.

Confusion manifests as soon as they become conscious and suffering usually begins when they realise how much time has passed and wonder how much they've missed and how things have changed. Their nightmare begins in consciousness and effort is required to get used to their newfound status of loss and overcome their problems. If death is the cessation of being, then it is also the end of all problems.

On the other hand, consciousness could survive death if we consider the possibility that the existence of "I" is not dependent upon brain or bodily functions and that thoughts may operate on another frequency of reality. An afterlife then, would perpetuate experience and everything that comes with it. Do we tap into this hypothetical frequency of reality when we enter the Phase or is it all an illusion produced by brain chemistry and physics? Here's an interesting story for pondering purposes:

"My stepfather Sergio was an alcoholic who developed cirrhosis. Eventually he committed suicide and I started to have a series of strange vivid dreams, one in particular where he confirmed to me that the afterlife is real. In others he seemed unhappy and appeared to carry what looked like phantom black bags attached to his torso.

Then I learned about OOBEs and I set myself the goal of making contact with him. The first contact with what seemed to be him, after having entered the Phase, seemed to show me that he was living out some fantasy in a summer landscape which looked like Portugal and the sky was deeply blue and surreal.

I had separated into what looked like my bedroom and had the urge to fly at high speed in one particular direction. I found myself in an airport hovering as a floating head. I descended into the ground and went right through it. Underground I saw people in some kind of basement and they seemed to be cooking something. Embedded in some wall, I also saw a mouse or a rat scurry past me through some passage. I wished to leave that place and found myself elsewhere. There was a room and two people asleep on a bed. I then thought that perhaps I could visit Sergio and thought about nothing but him.

I found him in the Portugal-like environment. He was driving a car really well and fast, like a kid. When he was alive he was a terrible driver. Every time he drove accidents did or almost happened. But he always wanted to drive because if he didn't he'd feel worthless as a man. My mum and him would argue over this. In my Phase experience, he drove at an incredible speed and I could feel his excitement. He swerved away from obstacles and he was in total control, it was like his own lucid dream. He also had passengers in the car which he spoke to and they seemed to admire him and his driving skills.

I saw what was happening from the outside and then I was inside the car next to his passengers. They ignored me. I was still a floating head. Then I shouted his name. He turned and looked perplexed. Then I felt this huge force pull me back before waking up. I felt as though I had been a 'ghost' in his world.

The next encounter was in a strange room and he was crying. I asked him if he was alright and he told me he regretted many things he had done when he was alive. I patted him on the back and told him that everyone makes mistakes and that no one blames him for what he did. This put a smile on his face. Then he turned to me and asked in bewilderment how was it that I could visit him. I told him about OOBEs and he seemed interested.

The next experience was a lucid dream where I was observing a great landscape from a strange room which seemed to be the top floor of a tower. The sky outside was pink. Suddenly there was a knock on the door and this took me by surprise. I did not expect to see anyone. I opened the door and a strange man, who seemed Portuguese, told me I had a visit. I looked behind him and saw Sergio. He told me he was visiting. I asked him who the other man was and he said that it didn't matter, what mattered was that he was there. The other man entered what looked like a bathroom and disappeared.

Sergio's skin was white and slightly shiny. He then told me that he would have been "42" if he was still alive. He seemed wiser, there was something about him, almost charismatic. We started talking and I can't remember what was said as it seemed like we communicated through a mixture of words and telepathy. He seemed to be getting more out of the conversation than me.

Then we started to go down some stairs which appeared to never end and descended into darkness. He suddenly stopped and stayed at the top, smiling. I continued to go down as I looked back at the same time. There was light where he was but I was descending into a dark void. Sergio remained, as if the lit area was his world, and he was not coming with me because he simply had nothing to come back to. After a falling sensation I woke up.

I knew it had been his birthday recently but didn't know how old he would have been. When I asked my mother how old he would have been she said "42". There have been other experiences but this, so far, could be interpreted as pretty convincing evidence of an afterlife. Still, the uncertainty remains. What if it was all imagined and subconsciously I already knew how old he would have been? Whether real communication with the dead in the Phase state is possible or not, nobody knows, but such experiences are certainly exhilarating, and, at times, emotionally intense."

Koi, I understand where you are coming from. I have also visited people who are alive and they either told me that I had appeared to have seen what was on their minds (their thought forms) or even slightly inaccurate replicas of what they were actually doing at the time (the Phase seemingly provided the gist) and my experience appeared to make more sense to them than me.

But we must consider that our Phase visits are subject to a wide range of interpretations. What one might consider significant, or a validation, another might see it as coincidence, and, the latter, believe it or not, happens more often than you think in general - if it didn't it would actually be weird.

Then you have the subconscious as Michael pointed out...you know more than you think you know, koi! The subconscious is like a massive storehouse and holds information that you are not even aware of - so it is possible that in my story above I already knew how old my stepfather would have been. Have a look at this possibility too:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryptomnesia

I am not trying to disprove the possibility of an afterlife, by the way, but I am trying to get everyone to consider all possible venues and I know exactly where Michael is coming from. Whatever the truth, just enjoy the experiences. You can try to see if you can manipulate the speech of a dead relative or even change their appearance in the Phase - which would be indicative that it is your creation, or, regard such presences as being the spirits of the dead and treat them accordingly. Your choice."

Then again, in some cases, there has been no measurable brain activity and the individuals reported HD NDEs when, in theory, if it was all in the head, they should have been unconscious as there was less activity than in delta (deep sleep). On the other hand, bursts of energy have been observed in the brain a few minutes after an individual has died. Perhaps the "spiritual experiences" manifest and only last for the duration of those bursts. I don't know. Quite frankly, I don't care. If death is the cessation of being, so be it.

[Xanth]

Maybe you could start another thread on that subject?


Regarding Raduga's method, what's important to me, was if he's invalidating the
Monroe concept: "I'm more than my physical body."

If so, I would have liked to know that in advance of spending time on the Raduga method.
If the phase is only in the mind/brain/head, then there is no afterlife and nothing outside the
physical world. But perhaps Raduga has more to say on this matter?

The point here is *YOU CAN'T EVER KNOW*.

You're asking for a definable TRUTH... a 100% guaranteed TRUTH.

I'm sorry Pauli, but if you're looking for something absolutely concrete, I HIGHLY SUGGEST you stop learning to astral project and take up knitting.

[Summerlander]

The point here is *YOU CAN'T EVER KNOW*.

You're asking for a definable TRUTH... a 100% guaranteed TRUTH.

I'm sorry Pauli, but if you're looking for something absolutely concrete, I HIGHLY SUGGEST you stop learning to astral project and take up knitting.

Look, Pauli2, you are free to believe in whatever you want, but, just don't let your beliefs blind you and be willing to consider other possibilities. You may find yourself more at easy as you are not clinging so much to a view mainly for comfort. Remember the proverbial Indian story about the blind men and an elephant? It's a bit like that...

[Summerlander]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not discussing you in particular. This goes for everybody out there. There have been a lot of arguments lately. People have different versions of looking at the truth. If you want to believe that OOBEs and lucid dreams are different, so be it (to keep it to the topic).

If you want to believe that Raduga's techniques induce lucid dreams only, go for it, but remember that Monroe describes a similar technique - and even mentions a nap/sleep as a primer - in his first book. Do you consider Monroe's experiences to have just been lucid dreams from his first book? Because that is pretty much the technique that Raduga mainly teaches and promotes with a few extras as boosters.

The term "Phase" used there is a broad term which literally means OOBE/AP/LD. It is not to be mistaken as an experience employing the "phasing" technique - although the term Phase clearly comes from Monroe. Raduga doesn't actually say "we're phasing". He says "we are entering the Phase". The Phase term is used to describe the experience, which, in my humble opinion, is exactly the same as what you get when you use the phasing technique.

What is your view on this?

[Pauli2]

My view is today, that Raduga's "indirect technique" requires u to NOT move after having waked up.

Monroe's old technique was to induce direct OBE, but Monroe said in one (or more) radio interview(s)
that the Condition A, B, C, D technique is not done like that at TMI anymore.

So...

Raduga's technique seems more about going back to sleep in LD, while Monroe's is about directly
getting the astral body move free.

Finally, if the foundation of a technique seems wrong, I would avoid that technique.

[ether2]

The point here is *YOU CAN'T EVER KNOW*.

You're asking for a definable TRUTH... a 100% guaranteed TRUTH.

I'm sorry Pauli, but if you're looking for something absolutely concrete, I HIGHLY SUGGEST you stop learning to astral project and take up knitting.

thats a statement of someone with very little depth of knowledge (insight) of the workings of various processes...

then what you can say is that i clearly said i dont know what phaseing is, hay thats a fair comment, but if i could be bothered i would know...

everything can be matched to see what is what and what does what, full proof, hold in any court of law...

ya wont ever get a job with us man, but you already knew that ...

good luck

love all

[Xanth]

My view is today, that Raduga's "indirect technique" requires u to NOT move after having waked up.

Which is a very effective way to easily gain access to the non-physical.

Choose to not believe it all you want, but many people have had success with it. 
All you're doing is cutting yourself off from a method/exercise that could potentially help you.  That's YOUR loss.

Monroe's old technique was to induce direct OBE, but Monroe said in one (or more) radio interview(s)
that the Condition A, B, C, D technique is not done like that at TMI anymore.

So...

Raduga's technique seems more about going back to sleep in LD, while Monroe's is about directly
getting the astral body move free.

Finally, if the foundation of a technique seems wrong, I would avoid that technique.

It's all perspective, Pauli.

I simply don't understand how anyone can see these things as separate experiences.  THAT is what blows my mind.

[Summerlander]

My view is today, that Raduga's "indirect technique" requires u to NOT move after having waked up.

Monroe's old technique was to induce direct OBE, but Monroe said in one (or more) radio interview(s)
that the Condition A, B, C, D technique is not done like that at TMI anymore.

So...

Raduga's technique seems more about going back to sleep in LD, while Monroe's is about directly
getting the astral body move free.

Finally, if the foundation of a technique seems wrong, I would avoid that technique.

Actually, Monroe said that Condition D is best achieved after a nap or sleep, ideally in the morning. It can be induced from a rested/refreshed state. Raduga says the same thing. Raduga also promotes the deferred method, which is the "wake back to bed" way (you wake up, get up and walk around to curb the sleep inertia symptoms, and then you go down a little later to induce).

The results are the same, Pauli. You either prime yourself with some sort of sleep and then induce later from a hypnagogic state that comes to you quicker than usual...OR...you wake up in the morning after a night's sleep, recognise that you have woken up, and remain still in order to enter the Phase from the hypnopompic state.

The result is the same thing to me. I see no difference and I have experimented with both several times. Once again, the term "OOBE", which was popularised by authors such as Monroe as an alternative to the belief-centric "Astral Projection", is only a term that describes what the experience feels like - it doesn't affirm in any way that we truly leave our bodies.

Now, DILDs and WILDs can be regarded as OOBEs too in the sense that, once you enter the dreamworlds, you have the sensation that you are not lying in bed any more. You feel as though you are out-of-body so to speak. WILDs can recreate the OOBE scenario purely from expectation. I don't see any difference between the two. Also, I'd like to add that, my experience has taught me that, in the Phase (OOBE/AP/LD), space is illusory like everything else in that reality. It is made of thought. Your movement is a thought. Objects are made of thought there. Distance is a thought. It is the realm of thoughts. It feels actual once you are fully focused there because you have altered your consciousness to match and absorb that perspective. It may emulate physical reality but they are thoughts.

In conclusion, when you shift yourself to separate from the body, you are not really moving (in the actual sense of covering physical realm distance). You are not really separating from the body because you are in the realm of thoughts and thought is action there. When you enter the Phase state, however you perceive the entrance, you are always changing the phase relationship between yourself and your surroundings...hence the term "phasing" being born. I thought I was separating from the body too, at the beginning...but then I observed certain things in the Phase environments such as turning 3D distances into flat 2D surfaces that I could rip apart like a Salvador Dali canvas...or entering paintings on walls to find myself in 3D versions of those paintings...the physical realm rules don't exist there unless you want them or expect them to exist. Period.

As far as I can tell, from experience, OOBEs and lucid dreams - although often conveying different entrances into the Phase - are basically the same thing.

[ether2]

Which is a very effective way to easily gain access to the non-physical.

Choose to not believe it all you want, but many people have had success with it. 
All you're doing is cutting yourself off from a method/exercise that could potentially help you.  That's YOUR loss.
It's all perspective, Pauli.

I simply don't understand how anyone can see these things as separate experiences.  THAT is what blows my mind.

as a by stander or lets call it a jury to this scenario and heard/read alot of evidence on both sides more so yours xanth because i know pauli2 practises PUL and you clearly do not, therefore i dont pick his/hers work/post apart like yours, i have to say as many now know the more PUL ya have the more higher in consciousness ya become the higher in consciousness you are the more knowledge/wisdom MINDS ABILITIES/Qualifications you have, this is clearly spelt out in the gradeing/level/test- schooling of the minds abilities/knowledge/wisdom, practise PUL you are clearly higher in consciousness/knowledge/wisdom/minds abilities than someone who does not practise PUL, PUL = higher grade of mentality/knowledge/wisdom = higher Qualifications...

this here is inarguable/indisputable of how to get to the higher knowledge/wisdom/minds abilities, it's a schooling and will hold up in any court ruleing/system ...

http://thewayitisether.wordpress.com/existencedimensionsladder-love-all/
and
http://thewayitisether.wordpress.com/summary-of-ladder-of-consciousnessdimensions-2/

so therefore in a court of law your word would be like a mentally retarded 3 year old giveing a diagnosis of someone's psychological stataus/evaluation as against someone with 40 years of experience in the field of psychiatry...

good luck man with your supreme mis-guided tours

love all man love all

hay SL isnt lucid dream more like projection i always interpreted dreams to be like projection not OBe i know with my dealings with people that have written books on the subjects also agree with this...

to me projection is when ya see ya body in the plains/realms what ever ya want to call it doin it's thing...
i also know whilst OBe whilst driveing a car 100/110 km/h, i can see what i'm doing in an OBe conscious state from my Obe non-physical body and all so see my non-physical body in a conscious state from my physical body doing the required task at a close distance whilst driveing safely of course...
contradictory?, No...
i just worked something out so i'll leave it their...
now i got to work how to test peoples knowledge on this so i can see their developement, so as they too can OBe/AP whilst driveing a car safely...
the above link will help ya get their...

good luck

love all

[Xanth]

Pauli, lemme ask you this... what if those authors are wrong?  I mean, sure, they have their published books (a fact that is meaningless to me, I've learned more from unpublished people than published)... they have their own experiential data to draw from.  Then we have the other side of the discussion...

But really, we all have to keep an open mind about *ALL* of this stuff.  I haven't seen any evidence that shows conclusively one way or the other... HOWEVER, my own direct experiences have pushed me off the fence into one distinct direction on the subject.

So really... Pauli, what happens if your authors are wrong? 
And what effect will that have upon your practices of Astral Projection?

[Astral316]

So really... Pauli, what happens if your authors are wrong? 
And what effect will that have upon your practices of Astral Projection?

[Xanth]

ROFL! Nice