Raduga's Phase is LD-ing, not OBE!

[blis]

LD, OBE, Phase - They're just words. Since we cant agree what the words mean, they mean whatever you want them to.

If you think they're the same thing then they are. If you dont then they arent.

But they're all real. Everything is real. My thoughts are real. My visualisations are real. They exist. I might not know where they exist but they exist.

[Astral316]

Just wanted to expand on Tom's quote from the other thread with the second part that was (conveniently) left out...

Tom: They are fundamentally very similar. The main differences are generated by nature of the entry (from uninterrupted awareness or from unconsciousness) and the nature of belief attached to each entry process."

So the main difference is whether you become aware before or after entry into non-physical and the BELIEFS attached to each.

So Campbell is not a member of this bandwagon.

[Xanth]

Thank you Astral316 for pointing that particular misquote out. 
It certainly does seem to point out contrary to Pauli's opinion.

[Summerlander]

By the way, I tried the experiment where non-physical reality affects physical. I entered the Phase and asked my "oversoul" to give me a six pac and make me look sexier. It worked. I woke up with a six pack coming through and bulging muscles:

[Xanth]

You scare me sometimes Summerlander. 

In any case... I was just thinking that even if, one day, they prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that astral projection is "fake"... y'know what?  I'd STILL practice it... because I know it has value "TO ME".  Even if that value is being able to fly around a "mind version" of the earth.  It's an absolutely FANTASTIC sensation.

However, this thread, and the others like it which you've created Pauli, have only served to strengthen what I already know to be true.  So in a way, I should be thanking you. 

[Ssergiu]

You scare me sometimes Summerlander. 

In any case... I was just thinking that even if, one day, they prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that astral projection is "fake"... y'know what?  I'd STILL practice it... because I know it has value "TO ME".  Even if that value is being able to fly around a "mind version" of the earth.  It's an absolutely FANTASTIC sensation.

However, this thread, and the others like it which you've created Pauli, have only served to strengthen what I already know to be true.  So in a way, I should be thanking you. 

I totally agree with you. Movies are not real either, but we still watch them. We like to create and OOBEs are the best way as we have no limits.

[ether2]

By the way, I tried the experiment where non-physical reality affects physical. I entered the Phase and asked my "oversoul" to give me a six pac and make me look sexier. It worked. I woke up with a six pack coming through and bulging muscles:

Wow that looks like some sort of super hero, maybe superman ...
private joke man...
mm not really that private...

good luck

love all

[Xanth]

I totally agree with you. Movies are not real either, but we still watch them. We like to create and OOBEs are the best way as we have no limits.

Well really, the problem is what the average person considers "real".

It comes down to this... ANYTHING YOU EXPERIENCE IS REAL.

[blis]

It comes down to this... ANYTHING YOU EXPERIENCE IS REAL.

+1

A movie is a real thing. Unless it's a pretend movie - like if I lied to you and said that I made a film when I didnt.

[Summerlander]

I'm not a REAL superhero...just in my mind...which makes it real  
To conclude: Raduga's Phase is both LD-ing and OBE!

[Xanth]

I'm not a REAL superhero...just in my mind...which makes it real  
To conclude: Raduga's Phase is both LD-ing and OBE!

Well, honestly... that statement is really as asinine as Pauli's original statement.

Truth is, nobody knows.
But the fact is that we're experiencing something... and if whatever we experience "IS REAL", then what that something is we're experiencing is, regardless of what/where/how it is, is also "real". 

There's no sense to say or believe one side over the other... just remain skeptically open regarding everything.

[ether2]

I'm not a REAL superhero...just in my mind...which makes it real  

dont tell the pshchs (doctors) that ...
otherwise i would have to tell the psychs about my super powers and my plane of dominanation of the world and the worlds power for all times so as to free ya from the psych ward after of course shareing with them how i come about of world domination of the worlds power...

http://thewayitisether.wordpress.com/existencedimensionsladder-love-all/
http://thewayitisether.wordpress.com/summary-of-ladder-of-consciousnessdimensions-2/

as ya can see that it is indisputable ...

good luck

love all

[Selea]

Now...recently I heard that Bedeekin has had some sort of breakthrough with the Phase state. To cut a long story short, remember my PowerPoint analogy as to how reality could be structured (inspired by Campbell's TOE)? Well, it turns out that he's been reading the TOE too and now he claims that in Slide Master, he had the "apply to all" option that allowed him to make changes to Normal View...in plain English...he reckons the nonphysical template allowed him to make direct changes to physical matter reality.

The way you put it is not exactly how it works.

Firstly to change something in a "plane" you have to change them in the "plane" and using the "body" just above the ones you want to change. So, in the case of the physical plane, you must change them in the "etheric" plane using the "etheric" body. The more "far" the "plane" and the "body" used is from the plane you want to affect the more the change is dilated in time and the more indirect the effect it is.

Secondly changes are never immediate to the point of being coincidental and then they don't work *directly*. For example: you break a bottle in the "etheric" plane using the "etheric" body. What it can happens (and not always, there are various factors, most of them I don't personally know yet) is that later (variable, let's say a day after in this case) in the physical plane something happens (as your child hurting the table where the bottle is in) that will cause the bottle to break. You don't affect "matter" directly, but indirectly. In short words, it happens working and looking as a "coincidence".

So, you see, if you mix the two things up you can understand that in a "common" experience (as the one you can have normally, using for example a sleep method without nothing else) the dilatation in time and the indirectness of the events will be so large that you could never discern real coincidence from supposed not so. For example, in the case of the bottle, it will happen (as it happens anyway, however) that the content of the bottle will be drunk, the bottle put in the recycle bin and then broken later, along the other trash when compacted.

[Selea]

The results are the same, Pauli. You either prime yourself with some sort of sleep and then induce later from a hypnagogic state that comes to you quicker than usual...OR...you wake up in the morning after a night's sleep, recognise that you have woken up, and remain still in order to enter the Phase from the hypnopompic state.

The result is the same thing to me. I see no difference and I have experimented with both several times. Once again, the term "OOBE", which was popularised by authors such as Monroe as an alternative to the belief-centric "Astral Projection", is only a term that describes what the experience feels like - it doesn't affirm in any way that we truly leave our bodies.

You didn't experience, however, what it happens with full concentration using a *direct* consciousness transfer method, directly from an awake state.

While the "truth" if the experience is anyway in your head (i.e. there's no "separation" at all) or not it's impossible to have (and neither personally I care) the result seems to be (either completely) different. Some of the diffferences I already described to you. Another difference is that the "separation" seems objective. If it is, really, it doesn't matter. What matters is that what you can do and the things you can experience are different in this case.

Also in the case of using hypnotic methods the experience seems to have some differences. Raduga didn't experiment in those two things. If you will do, you will discover that there are changes, both in the simil "objectivity" of the separation, and on the results you can have in there, both from an external (meaning the "planes" you enter and the way you can interact in them) and both in the "bodies" you can use.

If these differences are objectively real or not, if you really leave your body or not it's not important, at last for me, above all because nobody will probably ever know for sure, no matter what, so all in all I think that trying to intellectualy appurate if one of the two hypothesis is more "real" that the other it is just a waste of time better spent on working with what you experience.

[Summerlander]

You didn't experience, however, what it happens with full concentration using a *direct* consciousness transfer method, directly from an awake state.

Oh yes I have, my friend. I have experienced it during the day and wasn't even primed on a few occasions. The result: it took ages for me to get into the state and the result, once I entered the Phase, was the metaphysical environment or that which appears to be the physical realm (see my Mode 1 and Mode 2 terms in my sticky).

The way you put it is not exactly how it works.

Firstly to change something in a "plane" you have to change them in the "plane" and using the "body" just above the ones you want to change. So, in the case of the physical plane, you must change them in the "etheric" plane using the "etheric" body. The more "far" the "plane" and the "body" used is from the plane you want to affect the more the change is dilated in time and the more indirect the effect it is.

Secondly changes are never immediate to the point of being coincidental and then they don't work *directly*. For example: you break a bottle in the "etheric" plane using the "etheric" body. What it can happens (and not always, there are various factors, most of them I don't personally know yet) is that later (variable, let's say a day after in this case) in the physical plane something happens (as your child hurting the table where the bottle is in) that will cause the bottle to break. You don't affect "matter" directly, but indirectly. In short words, it happens working and looking as a "coincidence".

So, you see, if you mix the two things up you can understand that in a "common" experience (as the one you can have normally, using for example a sleep method without nothing else) the dilatation in time and the indirectness of the events will be so large that you could never discern real coincidence from supposed not so. For example, in the case of the bottle, it will happen (as it happens anyway, however) that the content of the bottle will be drunk, the bottle put in the recycle bin and then broken later, along the other trash when compacted.

You have just done me a favour and proved my point as to why Bedeekin didn't do what he said he did!
Bedeekin does not approve of this model of looking at things where you have ethereal, astral, mental etc. - he despises it. The way he described how he "succeeded" in his experiment is contradictory to what you are saying there...

Also, when you say "the way you put it is not exactly how it works" doesn't say much to me because you yourself admit that you don't know exactly how it works. I don't think anyone does really. All I see is models of chakras, energies, higher planes, lower planes and other narrow-minded anthopological views and theories that do nothing but amuse me...

Even this Campbell guy...he is preaching something similar...only he uses different lingo.

Well, honestly... that statement is really as asinine as Pauli's original statement.

No, it's not. Because it's a joke.

[Selea]

Oh yes I have, my friend. I have experienced it during the day and wasn't even primed on a few occasions. The result: it took ages for me to get into the state and the result, once I entered the Phase, was the metaphysical environment or that which appears to be the physical realm (see my Mode 1 and Mode 2 terms in my sticky).

No, it's not the same thing.

Let me see if I can explain the differences in the approaches better.

Approach one: you use REM sleep to enter the subconscious and produce Sleep Paralysys (or the contrary). SP is needed (and done automatically) because the bulk of your consciousness is still in the physical body, only a seed of it it's in the "astral" body; so, without SP you will act in both "bodies" at once, moving also the physical. This is why sleep methods can cause indirect mind-split effects and such, because you are always in both "bodies" at once (also if you can think the contrary, depending where your attention is), with the bulk of your consciousness remaining in the physical (and this cause also "automatism" while in the "other" body).

Approach two: you use a self-hypnosis method (of whatever nature) to enter the subconscious then, if you keep with concentration your consciousness outside your body for long enough this last will take whatever form previously built, both directly or indirectly. The physical body will go in "automatic", i.e. it will be controlled by your subconscious, but, with a bit of effort, you can switch back and forth from it and the "other" body and act in one or the "other". In this case the consciousness is fully in one body or the other.

Approach three: you use full concentration to create an "imaginary" body by and by till it is as "real" as the physical body and then you use various practices to give this "body" all the senses. When you have done it using the same full concentration you can "switch" to it and use it as the physical body. In this approach you can be in "both" bodies at once (but differentiating the movements of the two, differently from approach one) or in one or the other. When fully mastered you can "switch" everytime you want, and from a full awake state of the physical body. The end to be sought is to be able to slip in and out of  that "body" as easily as you slip in and out of a dressing-gown.

Phasing can be both approach one or approach two. Usually it depends on how you approach the method when you use it. Since you said it took you a "lot of time" it means that it was probably a "masked" approach one, starting from an awake status (as in Buhlman, for example, or usually WILDs). Then, if in approach two you use a "scenery" to keep your consciousness outside the physical the "separation" is in the background, your attention is not focused on it, so you can either not notice it (also if sometimes you feel literally "sucked" in, as in a vacuum). If instead you use a "point shift" (as Robert Bruce calls it, and I use this term because you probably have a theoric background on it so you can know what it means) then the "separation" is felt strong and objective.

Now, the different approaches also changes, apart the "feeling" of separation, both the results and type of experiences you can have, especially using a point shift for approach two or using approach three.

You have just done me a favour and proved my point as to why Bedeekin didn't do what he said he did!
Bedeekin does not approve of this model of looking at things where you have ethereal, astral, mental etc. - he despises it. The way he described how he "succeeded" in his experiment is contradictory to what you are saying there...

What he approves and not approves has nothing to do with this. People are capable of doing things that they don't either consciously know they exists, especially when using the subconscious. You can enter the experience called "etheric body" also if you don't believe or not care about it, if some circumstances (lucky, for the most part, if you don't know what you are doing) are right.

Then how did he described what he did? It can be just that you are reading it in a literary way or that maybe he didn't explain correctly what happened because he probably neither acknowledged it fully because he probably didn't either know what to look for. For example he could have changed something in the "astral" only to find it changed in the physical later, and in the meantime an indirect effect caused the result, without him knowing it and not looking for it.

Also, when you say "the way you put it is not exactly how it works" doesn't say much to me because you yourself admit that you don't know exactly how it works.

No, I said that I don't know personally what are the full parameters for always making the experiment succeed (or if it is even possible to have a 100% success there), but this is a separate issue from knowing the structure of the result and what it happens when you succeed in there

I don't think anyone does really. All I see is models of chakras, energies, higher planes, lower planes and other narrow-minded anthopological views and theories that do nothing but amuse me...

It doesn't matter what these things are, but how they seems to work. The "astral" seems to work in "planes" and the body seems to have different "levels" on where to work upon. If those are really planes and levels in the objective sense who knows and, at last for me, who cares.

[Summerlander]

Ok, mate! You've expressed your view - which may or may not be accurate/the truth. But there are so many ways of looking at something because we are all individuals. I won't provide a counter-argument for some of the things you said otherwise we may end up locking horns again and you are entitled to your own opinion. But fair comment in that people may stumble upon certain actions and succeed in doing things without necessarily understanding them.

Maybe, as of late, Bedeekin may have gone through a paradigm shift where he's more accepting of the etheric, astral, mental layers of existence and their corresponding bodies, I don't know...if he is, I guess he's more inclined to use Campbell's terminology.

If you are interested in what he said in regards to his experiment, you may find it on Astral Viewers. I won't post it here in case he decides to sue me. If you don't find it, I can PM it to you. And no, he is not my friend as you implied before, btw!

One thing I wanted to add. Bedeekin believes that there is a separate consciousness that permeates the physical, which is different to the metaphysical one. Hence he's categorised OOBEs in this manner: 1st phase = RTZ zone; 2nd phase = astral.

I have also made these distinctions (like Monroe, Kepple, Bruce) and many others did. I noticed certain differences but...and a big but...where Bedeekin BELIEVES they are two separate types of consciousness...I remain sceptical. So far I still consider the strong possibility that both types are the same and linked to different areas of the brain. Mode 1, using my terms here, could be an accurate simulation of the left brain hemisphere...and Mode 2 would be more of a left brain product.

This is the current postulation I have in mind which I more readily accept than the theory that we leave our bodies and travel to lower and higher realms of existence. You need to understand, Selea, that what Bruce and Campbell preach, the latter which Bedeekin swallowed because it sounded good to him, isn't something whose existence has been established. This is why the many-worlds interpretation isn't the only one in the quantum theory zoo.

This is why I'm not jumping excitedly at the prospect of an afterlife of heavens and hells...

[Selea]

This is the current postulation I have in mind which I more readily accept than the theory that we leave our bodies and travel to lower and higher realms of existence. You need to understand, Selea, that what Bruce and Campbell preach, the latter which Bedeekin swallowed because it sounded good to him, isn't something whose existence has been established.

Never said they are, in fact. I said it *seems* (or it gives the illusion) to work in that way, in practice, nothing more. How it *really* works, nobody knows.

In fact, I don't even like to theorize on it, just for this. I use some terms instead of others because I prefer them on the fact that they are more exhaustive in explaining what it seems to happen, and also because, in words, you have to use a terminology so that others can understand what you are saying, but not because I believe in them or think them true in the literal sense.

[Summerlander]

Yes, I know what you are saying. I guess we share theories here because it is something to talk about - which is relevant to the main Forum topic -  and once in a while it is good to try to establish some sort of understanding or in the least share ideas.

[Xanth]

Yes, I know what you are saying. I guess we share theories here because it is something to talk about - which is relevant to the main Forum topic -  and once in a while it is good to try to establish some sort of understanding or in the least share ideas.

I find that an important skill to have, whether it's discussing stuff on a forum or reading a book, is to be able to identify the terms and metaphors that other people use and match them up to your own if such a metaphor exists within your realm of understanding.  Then you can interact with people on their terms, which makes things a hell of a lot easier and less volatile. 

[Ssergiu]

Hehe, what I meant by the movie thing is that even unreal things can be interesting and interesting. Wolverine is not real, but his story may be interesting and it does not mean I am not going to read it cause he does not actually exist.

Anyway, maybe Pauli will like this, since math is amazing, LD's = OOBEs. 

[Summerlander]

It's as easy as 2+2.

[Selea]

Anyway, maybe Pauli will like this, since math is amazing, LD's = OOBEs. 

Well, according to my experience, they seems to be not. So called LDs require REM (or either nREM), so called OBEs not.

There are also studies that share this point of view:

"Many OBEs take place when the person is wide awake, and physiological studies show that experimental OBEs are associated with a relaxed waking state similar to drownsiness, but not deep sleep and certainly not REM sleep". (S. Blackmore)

The main difference seems to be on the way the experience is produced. Blanke has made some studies within, where OBEs can be produced from a full awake state if a vestibular sensation is stimulated outside the boundaries of the body.

But apart theorizations, the differences, apart technical, are in the experience produced and what you can do in there.

Following Raduga methods you can reach the experience only with sleep, so you have no other references to compare the experience to. Then the experiences can either be the same (also if they look different in practice in many points, but they can be so only in appearance) but Pauli is right on the fact that Raduga has not enough parameters to declare the thing one way or the other, since he uses only a way to approach the experience, and that way is not what the term "OBE" really encompass.

So him saying "I've *proven* they are all the same" it's a litte presumptuos at best, since he experienced only a part of the question.

[Ssergiu]

So him saying "I've *proven* they are all the same" it's a litte presumptuos at best, since he experienced only a part of the question.

Or did he? You can have OOBEs from REM too, from SP. However, as Xanth said it depends on what's taking over, the conscious or subconscious. OOBE's would not require REM because you enter consciously the state. When you go in an LD you are unconscious and need to realize it is a dream. Of course an LD will never feel like an OOBE. OOBEs feel real, 3D and so on. But if they are total different phenomena, what's the big difference? 

[Pauli2]

I would have like some of these post moved to the now locked thread, as these posts don't
belong in a thread discussing Raduga's Phase method. They simple don't fit the thread subject.