Raduga's Phase is LD-ing, not OBE!

[Ssergiu]

No, you have said that they are the same thing. Some things having the same "basic idea" it is not equal to them being the same.

as Xanth said it depends on what's taking over, the conscious or subconscious. OOBE's would not require REM because you enter consciously the state. When you go in an LD you are unconscious and need to realize it is a dream. Of course an LD will never feel like an OOBE. OOBEs feel real, 3D and so on.

When you are in an LD you just need to break out of the dream reality and you're in an OOBE already. As I've said, it is like a pie, it depends how much sugar you put in it. They'll have different tastes, but it still is just a pie.

Dreams < LD's < OOBE
|             |           |
|             |           |
--same phenomena--
Different abilities/feelings/awareness though

hmmm or did I? This is what I meant by them being equal. This is what everyone meant by it! Again, LD's feel different than OOBEs! In essense, they are the same phenomena. I think I gave the pie example a thousand times.

The fact that you can feel to be without a "body" (that then you never really are, but this is a complicate thing) doesn't invalidate the theory of the "energetic body", the same as if a fish inside a vase would be thrown in the ocean it would not invalidate for it the existence of water.

Yes. Also, unicorns rule the astral. The fact that you cannot see them does not invalidate the theory. That's how Christians back up their beliefs too. They do not start with the idea that something may be false. They start with the idea it is true and then back it up sometimes using the bible as well. Same to you. You already started with the idea of having something. You can't say / prove something doesn't exist once you say it exists. I also believed in energy bodies and stuff, but due to OOBEs and other things they have slowly been removed. Better OOBes, really.

Anyway, I do not think I am going to post in here anymore. It is not worth it. As Ryan said, experience for yourself and find out what they really are. Do not take everything that is said to you, experience and see for yourself.

[Selea]

hmmm or did I? This is what I meant by them being equal. This is what everyone meant by it! Again, LD's feel different than OOBEs! In essense, they are the same phenomena. I think I gave the pie example a thousand times.

I did read it, but it's not the same thing. The differences you listed are only "external" something like an apple being red or yellow, but remaining the same apple anyway, and not only on the "basic idea". I just wanted to say that's not so.

For example: there are two ways to enter so called "astral doorways". One is to have the subconscious by itself create the "door". The other is to create it yourself via concentration. The differences in the two is that in the first case the result will be mostly passive, in the second you will be a "master" of everything. It is the same difference from having a LD and a normal dream. Think of it as having a dream inside a dream, and the innermost dream being lucid or not.

Yes. Also, unicorns rule the astral. The fact that you cannot see them does not invalidate the theory. That's how Christians back up their beliefs too. They do not start with the idea that something may be false. They start with the idea it is true and then back it up sometimes using the bible as well. Same to you.

Christians don't back up what they say with practical things. I do, there's a world of difference. I don't say: "it is this way because such and such say so" (oh, look... isn't this then what others that have your same view are doing here? so in their cases it is right?), I say: "it is this way because doing such and such causes this". I either listed fully what to do to have some of the same results.

So, no, it's not the same thing at all, I'm sorry.

You already started with the idea of having something. You can't say / prove something doesn't exist once you say it exists. I also believed in energy bodies and stuff, but due to OOBEs and other things they have slowly been removed. Better OOBes, really.

Yes, I started with an idea, because everybody does, especially at beginning, but, you will be astonished to hear, my idea at beginning was exactly yours, having done only a little part of the whole myself. However, after, I discovered that ideas and terms are just nuisances, so I abandoned them altogheter in favor or the results of the experiences.

The difference is that I experienced many things more than just a part of the whole, and especially that, also with this structured experience yet I cannot be sure of nothing in the same terms used by you, so I just don't care and use what it works.

Then I never said that what I experienced it doesn't exists, I said that the literal meaning of term describing that experience can exist or not or be accurate or not, and that I don't care about it. I care about the results. What it is called "energetic body" can be something as something else, I don't care. I care that doing certain things I can experience the result called as such. Is the "energetic body" real in its literal sense of the term, or does it even exist in the literal sense of the term? Who knows, and, at last for me, who cares. However, with that experience I can do things I cannot without, so, at the same time, it is surely more real than an intellectual debate about it.

The only thing I'm sure of is this: that the more you experience both for yourself and what other people, with what you may call their "beliefs" and I call them their structured experiences, can do, the more you can't be sure of anything in the literal sense. What would you think for example if you would witness a Siberian shaman putting himself in the profoundity of an icy lake for 3 days, and then coming out alive and well after it, as if nothing never happened? I would see how your certainities on literal terms and his "illusions" will behave there.

You could say, in whole terms, that the mind is capable of anything, but that would not mean much in the end, isn't it?

Anyway, I do not think I am going to post in here anymore. It is not worth it. As Ryan said, experience for yourself and find out what they really are. Do not take everything that is said to you, experience and see for yourself.

I wonder sometimes. You did experience only a part of what I said, then discarded the rest altogheter, without having done things in a structured way and then you pretend to tell others to "experience everything" for themselves before deciding one way or another. Doesn't it seems this behaviour a little hilarious?

I told you this also to SL: if you want to learn music, painting, whatever, you don't do just some things in there depending on what you like more or it is more near to your view. You learn in a structured way, starting from the basics and doing things that are either boring, not conform to your pow, etc, and by and by you add pieces. This is the only way to have a real understanding of what you are doing. Elsewhere you will have just a confused bunches of ideas that will probably be completely different from the real, full picture.

I would change what you said to: "if it is something that's near your intellectual approach then test it personally, elsewhere it is naturally an idiocy, so so don't care". Where's the difference from what you were talking about Christians just a moment above I cannot see it, either if you insist on your approach being obviously better.

[Summerlander]

I told you this also to SL: if you want to learn music, painting, whatever, you don't do just some things in there depending on what you like more or it is more near to your view. You learn in a structured way, starting from the basics and doing things that are either boring, not conform to your pow, etc,

Actually, this is not entirely true and you shot yourself in the foot here.  I can play guitar and I have never taken any lessons.  I have not started from the basics as do most people who pay for lessons and have a teacher.  I learned on my own and wen straight to doing what I liked.  There was nothing boring about it either.

I have noticed that your posts don't make much sense and all you seem to do is to try to prove everyone wrong and tell the how much you are right.  You won't change their minds, Selea.  You are fighting a losing battle there and you have not even considered that what you perceive in that the way you do it yields certain results that others can't achieve could be nothing but belief.  In fact, I am telling you that it is because in the Phase, anything...and absolutely anything can manifest.  Also, I find someone's claims very dubious when they start saying "you haven't experienced this, you haven't or can't experience that..."  when they haven't even read the journal entries of the people they are saying it to.  Very dubious...very dubious indeed.

[blis]

Man I've had to turn of avatars cause your new one disturbs me so much.

[Summerlander]

I'll change it soon so you can sleep tonight.

[blis]

lol you dont have to. It saves my bandwidth anyway(i'm on a metered account)

[Summerlander]

LOL!  It's ok. I've done it anyway.  The trickster is back. 

[Selea]

Actually, this is not entirely true and you shot yourself in the foot here.  I can play guitar and I have never taken any lessons.  I have not started from the basics as do most people who pay for lessons and have a teacher.  I learned on my own and wen straight to doing what I liked.  There was nothing boring about it either.

Firstly, to what extent you "learned" to play guitar? Because, you know, I was talking about learning a thing in a professional way, not thump around.

Secondly, taking lessons or not lessons has nothing to do with this in the ample terms of learning in a structured way. You used a structured method to learn how to play, coming from the various notes, etc. That's a structure, my friend, created so you (and all others) could give order to the chaos and start a learning process. A real non structured learning process therein would have been to "buy the guitar and move the hands up and down until you learn something" (that btw, it is the same thing many people do in the "phase", metaphorically speaking). Good luck on that.

Thirdly I don't think you started from playing Randy Rhoads, Satriani or Malmsteen around, isn't it? You became with simple notes, then chords, etc by and by, in a structured way. This is a boring process, especially after a while, when you begin to have more experience in there. There are some people (most of those that learn by themselves, in fact, as you) that, in fact, skip it midway (or just do in there what they like) because they want to go to what they consider "serious things" in their pow or do only what they care in there thinking it's more appropriate for them and similar, but they usually never become neither a mile near as good as those that do the structured process fully, by and by. They learn in pieces, and the ones that instead learned the full picture, will be able to adapt to any situation and have a much greater understanding of the process. I don't think you consider yourself as a good guitarist as one that studied at the conservatory, or am I wrong?

Same as if you want to become a *good* writer (especially in a language that comes from it) you must know latin (and to an extent either greek) to the core, so you can understand grammatic to the core, and so on. Either Rimbaud, that was the greater example of breaking structures and turn them inside down, was a master of latin and greek. While he aborred all structures when he became what he became, he wrote extensively on the need to know the structures to hearth before breaking them. You cannot do a caricature of something you don't know.

Working without structure it is advanced (or either master) work, not beginner's one.

I have noticed that your posts don't make much sense and all you seem to do is to try to prove everyone wrong and tell the how much you are right.  You won't change their minds, Selea.  

On the contrary my posts make perfect sense if you read them instead of considering only what you care. One example is the reply of above by you. What I call "learning to play guitar" it is not what you consider as such. I don't consider "learning to play guitar" (or whatever other learning process) as a way to kill some time or to have a little of fun, or as an hobby, but a serious learning process, where you want to become very good in there. For this I talked about academies, etc.

Morover, you either tried to imply that you don't need a structure to start a learning process, without neither comprehending that in your example, learning to play guitar, you have used one yourself (what do you consider notes, chords etc. are?), or nothing would have come out of it.

If instead of reading the things in a superficial way you would read them fully and consider them fully, maybe you will start sounding a little less naive to me.

You are fighting a losing battle there and you have not even considered that what you perceive in that the way you do it yields certain results that others can't achieve could be nothing but belief.

On the contrary, I've considered it, it is only that I know that "belief" has nothing do to with it (or at last not in the way you consider a "belief").

Given however that I have personal experience (and not only mine) in what I talk about while you don't, maybe you should start considering that maybe you could be wrong or at last start considering on trying out for yourself and then understand if it's how you say or not, instead of already thinking you know the answer.

In fact, speaking in theoric and logical terms, I would like to know what "belief expecation" there could be from exiting with full concentration or exiting with sleep (where's the "belief" difference?). I would either like to know how can be that people that have different "belief systems" to begin with can do the same things and have the same results in the structure of the experience, indipendently from them.

In fact, I am telling you that it is because in the Phase, anything...and absolutely anything can manifest.  

The "manifestation" is internal to the structure of the experience. It is a subjective parameter. You cannot either understand the difference, it seems. The structure of the experience is external to the "manifestation", it exists by itself outside, while naturally reflecting in it.

Also, I find someone's claims very dubious when they start saying "you haven't experienced this, you haven't or can't experience that..."  when they haven't even read the journal entries of the people they are saying it to.  Very dubious...very dubious indeed.

The journal entries you speak about had nothing to do with what I was saying. It is possible that you really can't understand a simple thing as the difference between an approach and what you experience in it?

Those journal entries were using always the same approach to the experience, I'm talking about a different approach. If you always drive the same road to come to work how can you know what's in the other?

And my claim that you don't know how to experience it, it was just a constatation, nothing more. Or do you want to tell me now that you know how to "exit" with full concentration (and beware, it's not the same as simply visualizing an object until you are in the state)? Do you want to tell me that you are capable of doing the approach three I was talking about so that you can have a personal experience in there?

[blis]

Selea, you're clearly a very inteligent and knowlegable guy(or chick idk).

How much of your time do you spend engaged in these pointless arguments?

Dont you think that time could be spent much more constructively? I'm sure you know all sorts of stuff that I, and many others would love to read.

I find some of your posts very interesting. I doubt I'm the only one. But these massive posts on subjects like how Summerlander learned to play the guitar can put us off reading the others. Wading through the arguments to find the good stuff can be tiring.

There will always be people who disagree with you on the internet. Some people disagree in a grating manner. There's no point in arguing with them. There are better uses of your time.

[Summerlander]

It's ok, blis.  I'll just tell him that he is right all the time and that should keep him happy.  I obviously mean a lot to him if he dedicates so much time and so many words on me.  I'm flattered. 

[Stookie_]

I like reading it. Without people questioning us we don't question ourselves. I like understanding where others are coming from, even when I don't agree with them.

[Selea]

Selea, you're clearly a very inteligent and knowlegable guy(or chick idk).

Thing.   

How much of your time do you spend engaged in these pointless arguments?

I usually don't. But I'm on "vacation" from my personal working and I can spare some time replying to some points. I choose a post that I think can have some interest for people and I try to reply to it as specifically as a I can.

In two or three days my vacation will end and I will be gone and will return next year (if all goes well). I came in this forum last year, for a coincidence, and since I don't "believe" in coincidences I've decided to partecipate and return to it when I can.

As for "pointless", I don't think they are, elsewhere I will not reply at all.

Dont you think that time could be spent much more constructively? I'm sure you know all sorts of stuff that I, and many others would love to read.

The only way to implant a seed on something that's outside the spectrum of the ones who read it is to do so indirectly. The only way to give an different option to a general consensus is to react on the flow of it, not directly against it.

If you do so directly people will automatically shield themselves, thinking your are imposing something and they will not read a word. It happens the same also if you do it indirectly, in fact (and in fact it happens a lot with my posts), so now imagine what it will happen the other way around.

I find some of your posts very interesting. I doubt I'm the only one. But these massive posts on subjects like how Summerlander learned to play the guitar can put us off reading the others. Wading through the arguments to find the good stuff can be tiring.

You should read things less literally. For example in the "play guitar" point, the important "teaching" was that to learn something (of any sort) you need a structure to start with. Thinking structures as "belief system" it is an erratic concept that start from the wrong presumption that you are using the "belief" and not the structure behind it to do things in an ordered way.

There will always be people who disagree with you on the internet. Some people disagree in a grating manner. There's no point in arguing with them. There are better uses of your time.

I don't argue for me, I assure you. Maybe you can think this way if you look at the thing "externally", but watch the content of my "arguings" and you will see that there's a thread between them, for the particular point I want to make in the time I'm here.

[Selea]

It's ok, blis.  I'll just tell him that he is right all the time and that should keep him happy.  I obviously mean a lot to him if he dedicates so much time and so many words on me.  I'm flattered.  

You shouldn't.

I choose your posts usually because they are the most bigot and narrow-minded, also if you pretend to be the contrary, and they either come from someone that has a certain "popularity" (so a voice that others can follow) in these sort of forums, so they are perfect for my scope.

But don't take me wrong, I'm happy you are here, or elsewhere it would be an hassle to find points on where to work upon. Last time it was Beedkin, this time it's you. I'm lucky, what can I do about that?

P.S: A "non-belief system" it's a belief system the same, if you believe in it.

[Xanth]

I choose your posts usually because they are the most bigot and narrow-minded

Ironically, Selea... I avoid your posts for the same reason.

Funny that.

[Summerlander]

Selea...

I understand that you don't like me.  Fair enough.  But I would leave Bedeekin out of this as he is not here to defend himself.  Besides,  Bedeekin may be popular (and may even play on it - I don't know) but that doesn't mean he is not an extremely intelligent guy.  He has helped many people project over on Astral Viewers so I don't really understand why you felt the need "find points to work on" from him.  I'm pretty sure he does fine on his own and he has shown me that so far.  Go on AVers and you will find that he is an Administrator there and for a good reason.  He is also a very talented special effects artist and someone I greatly admire - something that you seem incapable of doing so far.  You seem to be in love with your own posts.  Am I wrong?

[Selea]

Ironically, Selea... I avoid your posts for the same reason.

Funny that.

Funny indeed. But I already know this, without you telling me.

That's because you never *read* them and just read what you want. This is often the case with guys who think they have "no-beliefs" when they have one stronger than all the others togheter. I already told you this: people who are supposed to think they go beyond these things are those that usually cannot go beyond them, and I see it time and time again.

You know, I never talk about "belief systems" you (in general) always do, in all your posts, in everything you write. So here it is the difference, plain to see. If I use some terms it is only to produce a point, if you use terms it is because you believe (and literally, and you are so sure about) in them. And yet you cannot see it and you pretend to be "free".

I suppose that if I say to one knowing these terms that the way to do phasing is to reach access concentration and then do a jhana therein that keeps your metta outside witha a rank-sa you will think me a buddhist, isn't it? Or I will be a buddhist if I live and preach as one? What's of the two?

[Selea]

Selea...

I understand that you don't like me.  Fair enough.  But I would leave Bedeekin out of this as he is not here to defend himself.  Besides,  Bedeekin may be popular (and may even play on it - I don't know) but that doesn't mean he is not an extremely intelligent guy.  He has helped many people project over on Astral Viewers so I don't really understand why you felt the need "find points to work on" from him.  

What all this have to do with what I wrote is really beyond me. Either again another fine example of you not reading anything at all and just fabricating a fantasy about what you think I said.

I just said that I use your posts (and those of Beedkin the last year) to give people another point of view instead of the most popular one. This has nothing to do not with you nor with him. In fact I never said I don't like you, I don't know you and anyway either if I did, what you are is beyond you and your self. I implied I don't like what you *write* and they are two completely different things.

I don't go on AV because I don't need to go there. I don't care at all. I found this forum for a coincidence (I was looking around for all another thing and a window popped up with it, yet this forum is not linked with ads and there was no logical reason it was there) and for this (since as I said I don't believe in coincidences) I've started posting in it, and not for myself. I don't search forums to write in them as you do to "share your experiences", I don't care, especially because doing so in these sort of forums for me it will have the same attrative of talking about moving pieces in a chessboard when I'm interested on positional plans or special lines in an opening book. I don't think you will find Anand or Topalov talking about chess in chessclub, isn't it?

You can think this an act of "grandeur" if you want, but that's how things are.

He is also a very talented special effects artist and someone I greatly admire - something that you seem incapable of doing so far.  You seem to be in love with your own posts.  Am I wrong?

I studied art (specifically painting and then scenography) in the art academy in Florence and Paris, I'm sorry for you.

Then what this had to do with all of this discussion is beyond me, as always.

[Ssergiu]

Dude... look. We all came from different beliefs. I also was with planes and lower astral and other stuff like this. However, in time, with experience we've realized they're nothing but beliefs and if we get rid of them, it will make things a lot easier.

Also, in OOBEs from REM, you do feel you are "out", it's not just imagination as you may think. Because you have not had great experiences with REM it does not mean others can't. However, you can use metaphors to help you out such as guardian angels and other stuff.

As for "non belief" is a belief. If it is, then it still occurs, so no matter what belief you have it still happens in oobes, even if your belief is a "non belief" or an astral fantasy thing. The thing is that the popular view is what yours is. Astral stuff and this is why, hopefully everyone will realize they're just BS.

Also, my first OOBE was involuntary then learned from mistakes how to get one. I found out on my own what is the best method and time to OOBE. Bedeekin learned by himself to have OOBEs. You can self-teach yourself. The fact that you first started with "notes" as you said for the guitar, it's just a structure for learning easier, it doesn't mean I did not learn on my own. Also, and if everyone needs to be taught, who taught the first person on earth OOBEs? Do not tell me it was an angel then the angel was taught by god and here we can stop cause we know nothing about God.

My oobe started off as an LD, I was too excited and broke the state and ended up in SP. Then I just got next to my bed and was looking at my room until I freaked out cause I did not know what was happening. Hadn't this happened, I do not think I would be here and I'd still be stuck in new age crap.

As Ryan said, this is subjective, your method may not work for others. Bedeekin's method rarely works on me, but it worked few times when I had involuntary SP. Now, I have another technique, which, in a way, is the same as summerlander's. I am starting to think that if people did not believe you needed to have vibrations, when they meditated they would not experience any. The problem is that if a newcomer tries oobes, every little 'strange' feeling will be associated to vibrations or whatever. I once meditated and thought I had vibes too, but when I had my SP's... I realized that those "vibrations" were nothing compared to SP's vibrations. Again, it can be different for everyone. From experience, we have created what we created.

[Summerlander]

@ Selea:

Of course it's beyond you, Selea!  Because you are incapable of admitting that you are wrong sometimes and only your point of view matters to yourself.  You are the one who appears to be living in a fantasy of your own.  As for Bedeekin having the most popular view...LOL...don't make me laugh!  Take a look around!  How many people do you know that agree with his views.  And then look at your views and you will find that you are just another sheep following these shepherds who call themselves masters and whose methods are absolutely useless for the newbie (in fact, they only serve to daunt and complicate things).

As for me searching for Forums...well...I've already found them and yes, I do share my experiences.  It is all about that!  Sharing and learning as much as we can about something so elusive.  Nothing wrong with that.  I share what I've found as much as I can mainly to help others who want these experiences so bad.  There is nothing wrong with sharing.  In fact, I tell my kids to share their toys and this has helped them to socialise/harmonise with any type of child.

You, on the other hand, don't share and don't care as you said.  Or I could be wrong and perhaps you have nothing to share and nothing to believe in for yourself. From what I get from you, in your mind there is only you and your preferences on this matter which you have acquired from books - not from experience - and this I'm sure of the more I read (skim) through your posts.  

Funny indeed. But I already know this, without you telling me.

Sure you did.  It wouldn't be you otherwise.  

You know, I never talk about "belief systems" you (in general) always do, in all your posts, in everything you write. So here it is the difference, plain to see. If I use some terms it is only to produce a point, if you use terms it is because you believe (and literally, and you are so sure about) in them. And yet you cannot see it and you pretend to be "free".

As for what you said to Xanth...are you serious or are you just pretending to be the biggest hypocrite on Pulse?  Selea...you talk about belief systems ALL THE TIME!  

I suppose that if I say to one knowing these terms that the way to do phasing is to reach access concentration and then do a jhana therein that keeps your metta outside witha a rank-sa you will think me a buddhist, isn't it? Or I will be a buddhist if I live and preach as one? What's of the two?

You are saying this...nobody else.  Talk about fantasies there, my friend.

I choose your posts usually because they are the most bigot and narrow-minded, also if you pretend to be the contrary, and they either come from someone that has a certain "popularity" (so a voice that others can follow) in these sort of forums, so they are perfect for my scope.

I've just realised...this is the very problem you have with me and Bedeekin...the supposed "popularity" that we have in these Forums.  This is in your mind, mate.  If you believe that we are popular...don't worry...pretty soon you'll be popular too if you carry on like this.  Only you will have no-one to talk to pretty soon.  Who would want to talk to someone who claims to be right all the time and refuses to accept that of others.  Who wants to socialise with someone who only looks at other people's posts in order to pick points for false counterarguments and to slander the author so that he makes himself look good (in his mind)?

You have a lot of growing up to do, kid.  You really do.

Also, my first OOBE was involuntary then learned from mistakes how to get one. I found out on my own what is the best method and time to OOBE. Bedeekin learned by himself to have OOBEs. You can self-teach yourself. The fact that you first started with "notes" as you said for the guitar, it's just a structure for learning easier, it doesn't mean I did not learn on my own. Also, and if everyone needs to be taught, who taught the first person on earth OOBEs? Do not tell me it was an angel then the angel was taught by god and here we can stop cause we know nothing about God.

Well said! 

Brilliant!

[Selea]

Dude... look. We all came from different beliefs. I also was with planes and lower astral and other stuff like this. However, in time, with experience we've realized they're nothing but beliefs and if we get rid of them, it will make things a lot easier.

You didn't get rid of nothing at all. You just replaced a "belief" with another, that's all. To really reach a "non-belief" status you must go beyond belief itself.

A "belief" is a belief because you believe in it, as a "non-belief" it is still a belief if you believe in it.

Also, in OOBEs from REM, you do feel you are "out", it's not just imagination as you may think. Because you have not had great experiences with REM it does not mean others can't. However, you can use metaphors to help you out such as guardian angels and other stuff.

What you call "consciousness" is not consciousness at all. Consciousness is not just attention. If you keep your attention on an external object your consciousness willl not "merge" with it automatically, just from your attention. You will need will and a lot of concentration, till the two becomes an habit and flow by themselves. For example, place you whole attention on the hand. It is your consciousness in the hand just for this? You can "feel" only the hand, but your consciousness will not have "moved" still.

In REM the bulk of the consciousness is still in the physical body. You just switch the attention on the "internal world" (or subconscious). If you would not be in SP your physical body will move when you move the "other" body, that's btw, what it happens in sonnambulism. In meditation, you can do the same or switch the consciousness altogheter.

You try to make me pass as an incompetent but you don't either know clearly the things you are talking about, I'm sorry for you and for all your "certainities".

As for "non belief" is a belief. If it is, then it still occurs, so no matter what belief you have it still happens in oobes, even if your belief is a "non belief" or an astral fantasy thing. The thing is that the popular view is what yours is. Astral stuff and this is why, hopefully everyone will realize they're just BS.

No, as I said a "belief" is only a belief when you believe in it. I said it 100 times already that, differently from you, I don't know what's real or not therein, and I don't either care, just for this. I just use something or something else depending on what I want to do.

My view, then, has nothing to do with the "view" in the way you look at it. It is just a different approach on the way to interact with the "astral", promoting a structure instead of "do what it comes). It is not a "belief" because I use terms only to promote a point, not to adhere to them.

You can self-teach yourself. The fact that you first started with "notes" as you said for the guitar, it's just a structure for learning easier, it doesn't mean I did not learn on my own.

Learning easier? Without a structure you would not have learnt at all, that's all.

You did learn something only because you used a structure, if by yourself or with the aid of others it doesn't make any difference. But now you, and others, suppose that in OBEs a structure is not needed and I would really like to know on what basis you pretend this.

I everytime posed this question, and nobody of you ever replied: if EVERY learning process has a structure for you to learn it, why for OBEs the thing should be any different? What makes you think that in this case, in the "phase" the process should be different? I'm curious to know your answer on this.

Also, and if everyone needs to be taught, who taught the first person on earth OOBEs? Do not tell me it was an angel then the angel was taught by god and here we can stop cause we know nothing about God.

I never said that you need others. I said you need a structure. A teacher is useful so that you don't do just what you want to do and to give you discipline in that and also to give you an experienced view when you can have trouble. But you don't need one.

A strucuture is born not by only one individual, but different individuals coming togheter in a sort with a "grid" on how to reproduce some results similar to everybody else. Then this structure is adopted so every other individual can start learning in an ordered way, to then come to a point that enable them to have a personal "map" (from their results on the structure) of the process.

A structure it's a sort of grid that enables the user to have an ordered approach to the experience, so that he can draw a map therein. Sort of like a cartographer drawing a map of the  undexplored surroundings. If the cartographer would teleport from one place to another, without any direction, what map could he draw?

As Ryan said, this is subjective, your method may not work for others. Bedeekin's method rarely works on me, but it worked few times when I had involuntary SP.

The approach cannot be sujective. The experience is, not the approach or the structure that comes from it.

Now, I have another technique, which, in a way, is the same as summerlander's. I am starting to think that if people did not believe you needed to have vibrations, when they meditated they would not experience any.

It depends in which way you do the "meditation". If you do it as the word means, then no, because your body will not enter sleep at all, if you do it in another way, as many does, then yes, you can experience them, but usually either in this case you don't because your attention is on the "internal" instead of the "external".

The problem is that if a newcomer tries oobes, every little 'strange' feeling will be associated to vibrations or whatever. I once meditated and thought I had vibes too, but when I had my SP's... I realized that those "vibrations" were nothing compared to SP's vibrations. Again, it can be different for everyone. From experience, we have created what we created.

So, all in all, you agree with me, it seems.

You, yourself, are now making a difference between "meditation" and "sleep" they are two different approaches, isn't it? So you did see that the structure of the experience is different in them, isn't it? Either if I cannot really understand if you have mixed a bit the two or not, still you have noticed some difference either there, isn't it?

Now, if you did have even more experience in there to know how to do a full concentration trance, you would understand that it will have yet another different structure in there.

So, what are you telling of different?

Either the trance state is different in structure if you reach it via sleep, meditation, or "real" meditation (that's dhyana in Patanjali's words, real because until this point what is called "meditation" is not properly such).

[Selea]

Of course it's beyond you, Selea!  Because you are incapable of admitting that you are wrong sometimes and only your point of view matters to yourself.  You are the one who appears to be living in a fantasy of your own.  As for Bedeekin having the most popular view...LOL...don't make me laugh!  Take a look around!  How many people do you know that agree with his views.  And then look at your views and you will find that you are just another sheep following these shepherds who call themselves masters and whose methods are absolutely useless for the newbie (in fact, they only serve to daunt and complicate things).

As you like.

You didn't understand anything of what I said, as always, but that's fine.

As for me searching for Forums...well...I've already found them and yes, I do share my experiences.  It is all about that!  Sharing and learning as much as we can about something so elusive.  Nothing wrong with that.  I share what I've found as much as I can mainly to help others who want these experiences so bad.  There is nothing wrong with sharing.  In fact, I tell my kids to share their toys and this has helped them to socialise/harmonise with any type of child.

Good for you then. The problem is that all your "learn" from those "sharing" has no structure at all, so it serves nothing at all. A blind following another blind.

You, on the other hand, don't share and don't care as you said.  Or I could be wrong and perhaps you have nothing to share and nothing to believe in for yourself. From what I get from you, in your mind there is only you and your preferences on this matter which you have acquired from books - not from experience - and this I'm sure of the more I read (skim) through your posts.  

I see that you skim, in fact, because you never get anything at all of what's being written in there.

Could you then please point me where in books it is written some of the things I've written here, plainly as I've written them? I would be curious to know. I'm not you that quote Raduga's word for word everytime to backup your point.

As for what you said to Xanth...are you serious or are you just pretending to be the biggest hypocrite on Pulse?  Selea...you talk about belief systems ALL THE TIME!  

Where? Care to quote so I can prove you that as always you didn't understand nothing of what was written there?

Different approaches are NOT beliefs. You can do only your little REM approach and for this it makes you good to think otherwise.

I've just realised...this is the very problem you have with me and Bedeekin...the supposed "popularity" that we have in these Forums.  This is in your mind, mate.  If you believe that we are popular...don't worry...pretty soon you'll be popular too if you carry on like this.

Either another time where you didn't get nothing of what I said. I'm start to wonder what your IQ is, really.

I said I use people that are "popular" so that their point of view is shared by many and debating on that can reach more people. This has nothing to do with fighting against popularity.

Bah. Ever studied phylosophy in your life? I guess you had a lot of problems there, isn't it?

Only you will have no-one to talk to pretty soon.  Who would want to talk to someone who claims to be right all the time and refuses to accept that of others.  Who wants to socialise with someone who only looks at other people's posts in order to pick points for false counterarguments and to slander the author so that he makes himself look good (in his mind)?

First you say I will become popular, now you said all the contrary. Make up your mind.

The I'm right when I'm right, and since I talk only of things I know perfectly, yes, I'm usually right. If you want to prove otherwise you have nothing more to do to PROVE that I'm wrong, but with practical and specifics, not whole debukling without meaning as you always do. Make examples, as I do, and reply to the specific of why what I say is not correct, don't shield yourself on this fable of "beliefs" or non beliefs as you always do. Go to the source and fight it, as I do.

Maybe you will at last start sounding convincing.

You have a lot of growing up to do, kid.  You really do.

Well said! 

Brilliant!

And here it is yet another example of your great debuking on specific points, as always. Well done.

Two sentences thrown in there, and that's all, never daring to debate on the specific.

But you are either right, in a sense. Popularity comes at a cost, why destroy it showing that you know nothing in reality of what you are talking about or that you cannot either comprehend what the other wrote if it's not what you want to hear?

[Ssergiu]

What you call "consciousness" is not consciousness at all. Consciousness is not just attention. If you keep your attention on an external object your consciousness willl not "merge" with it automatically, just from your attention. You will need will and a lot of concentration, till the two becomes an habit and flow by themselves. For example, place you whole attention on the hand. It is your consciousness in the hand just for this? You can "feel" only the hand, but your consciousness will not have "moved" still.

True, this is what happens when focused here. However, once you are in an out of body, either from REM or meditation, it does not feel like that, believe me, I know what I have been experiencing.

It is just a different approach on the way to interact with the "astral"

This is what I wanted to let you know. Metaphors or whatever are just another way to interact with the "astral". It does not mean they're true. The rope method is also just a tool. There's no actual rope there.

Learning easier? Without a structure you would not have learnt at all, that's all.

You did learn something only because you used a structure, if by yourself or with the aid of others it doesn't make any difference. But now you, and others, suppose that in OBEs a structure is not needed and I would really like to know on what basis you pretend this.

I everytime posed this question, and nobody of you ever replied: if EVERY learning process has a structure for you to learn it, why for OBEs the thing should be any different? What makes you think that in this case, in the "phase" the process should be different? I'm curious to know your answer on this.

No. What I have been saying is that you can find your own structure and that you do not need a teacher to show you a structure. You can discover it on your own as "the first teacher" may have done. However, yes, a teacher can help you when you have trouble, but he/she may still not be able to help you with everything since you may experience something else, unless you OOBE the way he does.

A strucuture is born not by only one individual, but different individuals coming togheter in a sort with a "grid" on how to reproduce some results similar to everybody else. Then this structure is adopted so every other individual can start learning in an ordered way, to then come to a point that enable them to have a personal "map" (from their results on the structure) of the process.

Yes, but still, there are many structures for experiencing the same thing. However, teaching someone your structure would make it easier to know what your "student" is experiencing.

The approach cannot be sujective. The experience is, not the approach or the structure that comes from it.

Once you've got a structure you are already experiencing things. Those things can be subjective. For example you may hear stuff in SP, see things or feel presences. That's what I meant that it is subjective. Also, SP is subjective because of your sleep schedule and mood. If I tried now, I wouldn't have any SP. For example, not everyone can OOBE at 4 am.

You, yourself, are now making a difference between "meditation" and "sleep" they are two different approaches, isn't it? So you did see that the structure of the experience is different in them, isn't it? Either if I cannot really understand if you have mixed a bit the two or not, still you have noticed some difference either there, isn't it?

There is a difference in the structures, however, the OOBE is the same.

[Xanth]

Where? Care to quote so I can prove you that as always you didn't understand nothing of what was written there?

Different approaches are NOT beliefs. You can do only your little REM approach and for this it makes you good to think otherwise.

Sorry Selea, but this is exactly why I don't listen to anything you have to say.

*EVERYTHING* you say on this forum, unless you have verifiable, tangible proof of... is a belief.  Everything.  EVERY SINGLE IDEA/THOUGHT/OPINION you make on this forum is nothing but a belief.  Anything anyone her has to say on Astral Projection "is a belief".

It may be your personal known, you may KNOW something yourself... but you can't share it in that capacity.  You can only share it as a belief to anyone here.

I'm completely baffled as to why you can't grasp this simple concept.

[Summerlander]

Me too. 

[Selea]

*EVERYTHING* you say on this forum, unless you have verifiable, tangible proof of... is a belief.  Everything.  EVERY SINGLE IDEA/THOUGHT/OPINION you make on this forum is nothing but a belief.  Anything anyone her has to say on Astral Projection "is a belief.

The verifiable, tangible proof is that everyone doing the same will have the same structure in the experience.

Then it depends on what people on this forum relate to. They usually relate only about the subjective experience, so in this case yes, but if they could understand the structure in their experiences (and you need a structure on where to work to begin with, to understand it) then they could be able to relate that too for others to replicate it. The subjective approach will change, but the structure of the experience will be the same.

Terms are used just to variate a structure from another; if this wasn't necessary why use terms at all? A rose is the same as a lemon in structure? Meditation is the same as sleep? Awake is the same as meditation? Maybe on the whole, everything is in all consideration the same as the other, but we are not speaking on whole terms now.

It may be your personal known, you may KNOW something yourself... but you can't share it in that capacity.  You can only share it as a belief to anyone here.

I can share it, if for only one damned time you will even try for yourself of what I talk about.

For example. Learn to concentrate all of your attention on your hand, fully, to the exclusion of all else. Keep at it every day. You will reach a point (usually if you keep doing it seriously in about six months work, starting from zero) where what you can call your consciousness, the mind-matter, the chitta, etc. will "transfer" in the hand (the part that you consider the consciousness, your "I", that's usually behind the eyes will "move" in the hand) and it will stay there until you let it go (and then it will return in the usual position by habit; there are people that have permanently "moved" it in another part by changing the habit, however, also if I don't know why one should do it). This is not a "belief", this is what it happens. And you will experience it too if you do the same. It is called Dhyana, the merging of the subject with the object, that it means the merging of the consciousness with the object of the meditation. Inside the result there are subjective variations in the way you can understand the experience for yourself, but the STRUCTURE of the experience, it is always the same.

Then does it really happens that the "real" consciousness transfers literally to the hand? It does it even really exists a consciousness as a "separate" entity? Who knows. I certainly don't pretend to know, one way or another, differently from others here, and I don't either care. But the above is what it *seems* to happen, and it will happen also to you if you do the same. I talk about "transfer of consciousness" because it is the most fidelty in expression in terms I can have about it to express what it seems to happen.

This is the assumption that I always made and that you cannot still understand just because you, on the contrary, behave in another way. If I talk of what it happens, it doesn't mean that it really happens so, I relate what it seems to happen, what it gives the impression to happen, etc. not what it really happens in there, because nobody can know and I surely neither care to know because it is a loss of time. I relate the impression with some terms that can make understand others the "feeling" of it, the structure of it in the impression given.

This "impression" will be the same for everyone. It can change subjectively on your approach to it, but the structure of the impression will be the same. You can use other terms, believe it's a thing or another and so tie yourself really in a belief or another, but the "impression" will not change. I prefer to don't think it's A or B, but just relate the feeling with some terms, that's all. Others can do differently, and they do.

I'm completely baffled as to why you can't grasp this simple concept.

As I'm completely baffled as how you cannot understand that the structure of an experience, whatever experience, it is the same for everyone, since we are all humans and "composed" of the same materials, chemicals, soul, mind, brain, kha, khu, etc.

If you put your hand in the fire the subjective reaction can variate, but the structure, i.e. your hand will burn etc., will not change.