are we not supposed to talk about this stuff ?

[pondini]

i'm getting a strong feeling that there is an unwritten rule against talking about specifics of our mystical experiences, is this true?

[omcasey]

I talk about it endlessly (when there is something coming to me to say).  When there is nothing here, I am quiet.  I've been in a quiet stage for the past month or so..  If you like, you can visit my youtube page, I started relaying the specifics of what I began experiencing last year:  http://www.youtube.com/omcasey1.  There are further links there as well, to forums where it is highly appropriate to speak and discuss. You might like the Kundalini Survival and Support board.

[Xanth]

i'm getting a strong feeling that there is an unwritten rule against talking about specifics of our mystical experiences, is this true?

In what context are you speaking?

Here on the forum?
In real life amongst strangers?
In real life amongst friends?
With family?

~Ryan

[Stookie]

i'm getting a strong feeling that there is an unwritten rule against talking about specifics of our mystical experiences, is this true?

Not at all. It's up to an individual as to what they share. Bragging about experiences probably isn't the best thing to do, nor is lying about them. Some things may be best kept to yourself, but that's for you to decide.

[pondini]

In what context are you speaking?

Here on the forum?
In real life amongst strangers?
In real life amongst friends?
With family?

~Ryan

if i had to be specific, i guess it would be in regards to 'practicing' Buddhists and potential practitioners -which arguably includes the public, in general.

it might be more helpful if i list some of the reasons that caused me to start this thread.

my first cue was something an advanced Buddhist said in a pm. he also authored a book on Buddhism, so i assumed his comment was based in the culture:

"But I have not foregone my own practice. I still practice regularly and have had some break-throughs, but in general it is best not to profess or discuss attainments, because there is too much room for charlatans, exaggerations, ego-building, or on the other hand too much humbleness, when teachers or other advanced students discuss their attainments."

my next example stems from a thread i read at a Buddhist forum. there was a thread who's author sought to know the benefits of his OBEs in regards to meditative states, or at least, the correlation between the two (if my memory serves me correctly). oddly enough, he was slightly badgered by various board members and i was surprised no one came to his rescue, especially on a board where i assumed there would be many practitioners with enough experience to draw parallels between OBEs and meditative states. at first i thought 'how can a group of people so versed in ignorance -the initial cause of suffering- be so... well, clueless:P but then i remembered that pm from my Buddhist friend, and i considered that perhaps the 'big guns' were remaining silent because speaking up might lead the readers of that thread to believe that they, too, could have wildly exotic experiences like those of the OBEr... hence implying a situation that might be unrealistic, for some.

then i read -or heard- someone's account of how they had toured the golden triangle and its surrounding areas, speaking to many Buddhist teachers and practitioners about the really transcendental experiences. however, most acted as if they had no knowledge of what he was talking about, and the few that conceded the fact were still very tight-lipped and gave no details.

i've also heard a few other people comment on how the Monks and Yogis just don't talk about this stuff, and i think the main reasons are those mentioned in that pm: 'charlatans, exaggerations, and ego-building.' Stookie's post about 'braggarts' and 'liars' dovetails nicely into all of those categories.
it also makes sense to me that modesty might lead the student to think 'wow, my experiences far surpass those of my teacher' or 'that's all this guy has experienced after 20 years of practice???'

i can see how problems could be created in the cases above, but on the flip-side, i'm pretty excited about the things i've witnessed and i'd like to talk about them with like-minded people. at this point in time, i personally believe that the silence factor well suites the 'austere' Buddhist community (those sternly committed to reaching enlightenment via strict protocol) but were it not for the written accounts of the NDErs, OBErs, and DMTers, i would have not found my way to a better life, let alone to this board.

[xufwipp]

I would love to hear what you have witnessed. Please tell us more about your experience!

[Stookie]

if i had to be specific, i guess it would be in regards to 'practicing' Buddhists and potential practitioners -which arguably includes the public, in general.

it might be more helpful if i list some of the reasons that caused me to start this thread.

my first cue was something an advanced Buddhist said in a pm. he also authored a book on Buddhism, so i assumed his comment was based in the culture:

"But I have not foregone my own practice. I still practice regularly and have had some break-throughs, but in general it is best not to profess or discuss attainments, because there is too much room for charlatans, exaggerations, ego-building, or on the other hand too much humbleness, when teachers or other advanced students discuss their attainments."

my next example stems from a thread i read at a Buddhist forum. there was a thread who's author sought to know the benefits of his OBEs in regards to meditative states, or at least, the correlation between the two (if my memory serves me correctly). oddly enough, he was slightly badgered by various board members and i was surprised no one came to his rescue, especially on a board where i assumed there would be many practitioners with enough experience to draw parallels between OBEs and meditative states. at first i thought 'how can a group of people so versed in ignorance -the initial cause of suffering- be so... well, clueless:P but then i remembered that pm from my Buddhist friend, and i considered that perhaps the 'big guns' were remaining silent because speaking up might lead the readers of that thread to believe that they, too, could have wildly exotic experiences like those of the OBEr... hence implying a situation that might be unrealistic, for some.

then i read -or heard- someone's account of how they had toured the golden triangle and its surrounding areas, speaking to many Buddhist teachers and practitioners about the really transcendental experiences. however, most acted as if they had no knowledge of what he was talking about, and the few that conceded the fact were still very tight-lipped and gave no details.

i've also heard a few other people comment on how the Monks and Yogis just don't talk about this stuff, and i think the main reasons are those mentioned in that pm: 'charlatans, exaggerations, and ego-building.' Stookie's post about 'braggarts' and 'liars' dovetails nicely into all of those categories.
it also makes sense to me that modesty might lead the student to think 'wow, my experiences far surpass those of my teacher' or 'that's all this guy has experienced after 20 years of practice???'

i can see how problems could be created in the cases above, but on the flip-side, i'm pretty excited about the things i've witnessed and i'd like to talk about them with like-minded people. at this point in time, i personally believe that the silence factor well suites the 'austere' Buddhist community (those sternly committed to reaching enlightenment via strict protocol) but were it not for the written accounts of the NDErs, OBErs, and DMTers, i would have not found my way to a better life, let alone to this board.

Much of what you put rings true for me. I've realized that everyone has to approach it in their own way and it's best to guide a person to their own experience more than say "This is what I experienced so it's what you should experience too." That's what a true buddhist teacher would do. You can't force someone else into enlightenment, only help guide them to their own personal discovery. Sensational stories, no matter how compelling, aren't experience and can distort a person's conception of what is to be attained. That's probably why so many spiritual teachers in the past use parables instead of "real" stories.

[pondini]

yeah, that sounds very sensible. in Buddhist terms, i can see how that sort of mechanism would be beneficial for the student. for those of us, like me, who are just dabbling -by comparison- i think there's no harm in talking about these events with other like-minded wanderers, and exchanging contemplations and profundities until we make the decision to commit to the practice, in full, or not. to be honest, when i posted my first thread HERE i was pretty nervous for a few reasons, but largely because i wasn't sure if we were supposed to talk about this stuff.

thanks for all the replies!

omcasey, you look too young to be so wise:) i watched your last five uploads, but i'll try to view the early ones, too.

xufwipp, i added a link to one of my experiences, so you can read it if you like. i have a few others documented and i'll probably post them soon, but i need to figure out which section would be most appropriate for them -some of them are difficult to define. i still have a few really cool ones (well, they are cool to me) that i need to type out; they were my first experiences and i wasn't documenting anything back then, i only started chronicling them when they continued to happen. unfortunately, just as in omcasey's situation, not much has been happening lately and it feels like i've lost my dedication, or something like that. the Buddhists might classify this as an attachment to these events, however, i see these things as 'rewards'... that i've become attached to, lol. BUT, if these events are basically commonplace in our higher-selves' realm, then i've only became attached to events that regularly occur in our true domain, which seems OK to me, considering that the whole purpose of renouncing attachments is to free ourselves from bondage to the earth (via earthly attachments).
don't worry, xufwipp, i'm not directing all this towards you for your thoughts on the matter, i was just letting my thoughts flow while i actually feel like typing:)

all my best to all of you!

[CFTraveler]

I have a comment, and it's really not from a buddhist viewpoint (or even from an eastern viewpoint, since I'm a westener)- and that is that even though when you are starting it is definitely healthy to talk about your experiences, so that you can compare them and share (after all, there is nothing like talking about something 'new' or 'weird' and finding someone who knows what you are talking about- sharing and all that.
But there comes a time where you realize that when you mean to share and help, sometimes people make assumptions about you- and I'm not talking about people thinking you're full of yourself or a braggart, or even crazy- the danger is when people start to think you're something special and want you to guide them- this is something that happens at times and makes me uncomfortable- and I see how it doesn't make certain others uncomfortable- they preen and so on, and this makes me not want to talk or share when something 'sublime' happens.
I think that sometimes religions and cults start out with someone having an experience, and others trying to have them by doing what the 'first' person did- and when they look to learn from that person, they elevate the person and sometimes think that it's something 'in them', and not the experience itself that's important.

This is why I always say- yes, talk about it, share it, and when you can teach it, but don't make it about the discipline, make it about the ability for anyone to have experiences that are significant to them.

That's why I dislike the words 'enlightenment' and 'progress', and I only use them when there are no other words to describe what I'm trying to convey.

So, that's it, I guess.
________

[Naykid]

I have a comment, and it's really not from a buddhist viewpoint (or even from an eastern viewpoint, since I'm a westener)- and that is that even though when you are starting it is definitely healthy to talk about your experiences, so that you can compare them and share (after all, there is nothing like talking about something 'new' or 'weird' and finding someone who knows what you are talking about- sharing and all that.
But there comes a time where you realize that when you mean to share and help, sometimes people make assumptions about you- and I'm not talking about people thinking you're full of yourself or a braggart, or even crazy- the danger is when people start to think you're something special and want you to guide them- this is something that happens at times and makes me uncomfortable- and I see how it doesn't make certain others uncomfortable- they preen and so on, and this makes me not want to talk or share when something 'sublime' happens.
I think that sometimes religions and cults start out with someone having an experience, and others trying to have them by doing what the 'first' person did- and when they look to learn from that person, they elevate the person and sometimes think that it's something 'in them', and not the experience itself that's important.

This is why I always say- yes, talk about it, share it, and when you can teach it, but don't make it about the discipline, make it about the ability for anyone to have experiences that are significant to them.

That's why I dislike the words 'enlightenment' and 'progress', and I only use them when there are no other words to describe what I'm trying to convey.

So, that's it, I guess.
________

Nicely said, CF.   

[CFTraveler]

Thanks, Nay.

[pondini]

i like to believe that a profound experience would bring with it the wisdom of humility, but it seems even the divine glimpses we are sometimes gifted with are not immune from the polarity of 'good' and 'bad'. 

all i can do is stay humble and use all of my knowledge and wisdom to spot, and avoid, potential hucksters.

[personalreality]

being free of the tendency toward judgment is a tall order.

a little humility under the belt isn't necessarily enough.

[xufwipp]

xufwipp, i added a link to one of my experiences, so you can read it if you like.

Thanks for the link! It's an amazing experience that you had. I hope I get to this level some day.

[pondini]

i wish i could better explain how it happened -in terms of mechanism- but i can't. 5-6 months before that happened i was an agnostic, almost an atheist, then i read DMT: The spirit Molecule, Oxford's: Introduction To The Philosophy of Buddhism, Monroe's Journeys Out Of The Body and Buhlman's Adventures Beyond The Body, along with a few others. i also read at least 50 of the 'exceptional accounts' at NDErf.org which blew my mind! and i have always been interested in science, so when i coupled all these concepts with quantum theory i was sold!

i believe my success is the result of my total fascination and immersion into all of the wonder that has been kept from us. in short: just BELIEVE !!!

[personalreality]

DMT the spirit molecule is a good book.

i was just talking about this in the blindfold post.

there's a book called "Darkness Visible" that says that if you wear a blindfold for multiple days your brain stops producing serotonin and starts producing DMT.

[The Present Moment]

The Great Western Vehicle is the only Buddhist order I know of that discusses mystical experiences openly. You'll find a lot of material on their site. The other schools have very different takes on how to approach or avoid mysticism as part of practice.

[Iseke]

I have a comment, and it's really not from a buddhist viewpoint (or even from an eastern viewpoint, since I'm a westener)- and that is that even though when you are starting it is definitely healthy to talk about your experiences, so that you can compare them and share (after all, there is nothing like talking about something 'new' or 'weird' and finding someone who knows what you are talking about- sharing and all that.
But there comes a time where you realize that when you mean to share and help, sometimes people make assumptions about you- and I'm not talking about people thinking you're full of yourself or a braggart, or even crazy- the danger is when people start to think you're something special and want you to guide them- this is something that happens at times and makes me uncomfortable- and I see how it doesn't make certain others uncomfortable- they preen and so on, and this makes me not want to talk or share when something 'sublime' happens.
I think that sometimes religions and cults start out with someone having an experience, and others trying to have them by doing what the 'first' person did- and when they look to learn from that person, they elevate the person and sometimes think that it's something 'in them', and not the experience itself that's important.

This is why I always say- yes, talk about it, share it, and when you can teach it, but don't make it about the discipline, make it about the ability for anyone to have experiences that are significant to them.

That's why I dislike the words 'enlightenment' and 'progress', and I only use them when there are no other words to describe what I'm trying to convey.

So, that's it, I guess.
________

Thank you for this post.

I'm at the point in my own self-discovery where I have come to accept the reality of mystical experiences, having moved past my own doubts and struggles to find a belief system that made sense to me. But my experiences have been so unexpected and so interesting in light of the paradigm and cultural upbringing I've grown up with that I find myself desperate to talk about them. I always hesitate, though, not sure if talking about them would be somehow disrespectful to the experiences I'm having or the people who have helped me along the way. I think your post answered the struggle I was having deep down.

I remember reading the testimonies of an experienced dowser who shared the events she experienced when she first started. It was easy for her to get caught up in the role of "hero" for the souls that came to her needing assistance through her dowsing, and after awhile she found herself being led in the wrong direction by misguided souls taking advantage of her inexperience. I read her story as I was learning to dowse myself, and it has always stuck with me in remembering to keep myself humble and to never assume that I'm impervious to being misguided. Even in a short period the things I thought I understood in one way are then offered to me in another way, and I realize that any advice I may have given prior to that new understanding was likely to be incomplete or even wrong. The best I can do is offer my own experiences to let others know they are possible.

I think the biggest danger is not only when people start to look to you for guidance, but when you assume the role of "hero" for them--whether you mean to or not. In other words, when you find yourself taken in the role of guide so much that you are no longer guiding the person to their own truth but to your own. You become the false prophet, feeding off of their need for you. Then you are no longer in service of the light and are in service of yourself instead.

Talking about my experiences is hard, because the more I learn, the more I realize how much I don't know.

[personalreality]

i don't think you should be a part of any group or tradition that doesn't support you sharing your full experience.

[Chubysnow]

You should be careful, the way to learn is by trying things out yourself. But if someone needs guidance then spare them some, we were all like that at one point.