kundalini and enlightment

[jilola]

Living in a constant state of enlightenment is  well night impossible while were are incarnate. Reaching moments of the experience are extremely well done and essentially the same if one remains unattached to the enlightenment.

Well, it's probably possibly to shatter the ego attachment via connecting to the universal energy flow (raising kundalini).
I'm not sure if raising kundalini necessarily leads to enlightenment and if englightenment leads to the raising of kundalini. Probably not, likely not even.

The observation method, Zazen in fact, leads to cessation of ego and to freedom from attachment via merging with one's being as an integral, yet individual, part of everything else. The kundalini raising rids one of the blockages in one's being and leads to a heightened state of awareness in which the ego vanishes.
The result is the same, imho, but the manner in which it is achieved differs. I doubt if it matter which path you take as ong as the path and the goal don't become new attachments along the way.

Enlightenment even as a constant state doesn't make normal life impossible after the first excess of exhilaration of the new freedom stablizes. The same goes for kundalini, imho, as well. Both are akin to a mental earthquake and initially can and will(?) cause trouble while the person gets acclimatized, so to speak.

I'm of the opinion that the extreme adverse effects and results of kundalini are due to imbalances in the experiencer not due to kundalini in itself.

2cents  L&L
Jouni

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I think the only problem you would really have being enlightened would be that you are no longer aligned with your society/culture which is most likely still based on attachment.

[jilola]

That would be a problem if in the englightened state one were to separate oneself from the surrounding society.
That is not necessary and not even desirable.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[WalkerInTheWoods]

The way I am seeing it is that you would no longer share the values of your society. Or maybe it is just my society being in the USA and being so materialistic. Materialism is promoted so heavily here because it is our driving force behind our economy. People are so attached that I would think it would be hard to relate well with many people. That is not to say that you cannot interact with them or live among them. But I guess if you reach true enlightenment it would not matter?

[jilola]

Why would one get worked up over other people's attachement to material things? It's not like there's an Anti-enlightenment squad []

2cents & L&l
Jouni

[Jon_88]

Hmm Enlightment as you describe it ,is as eastern religion describes it(more or less). Their goal are ussually Nirvana , trough complete disassociation with the world life ,including their bodys and to a great part their mind. How can there be suffering if what illness happens it not actually yourself ! The same holds true for joy [].
No attachments means Detachments!
There can off course be contentment and a longing of endless sleep/nonbeing -Nirvana .

Buddha didnt do any chacra meditation or esoteric things of any sort since it was against hes theories(since he made the religion) of the shortest path to ending it all and not being distracted by anything along the way. Chacra meditation implicitly gives away your intention of increasing your capasity to DO something!! While

Nirvana is achieved bye doing nothing BUT finding new ways of detaching yourself from the world (including spiritworld) ,as long as there is something at all possibly to detachyourself from DO IT and what remains is Nirvana!

While there can be great discussions as to what Mr.Bruce teaches it is not the way to Nirvana (or it is a heck of detour if it is []). As I see it , he teaches tricks or small systems to achive some paranormal (or supernormal more like it[]) effects. Then tells you to interpret thise for yourself and suggest to consider demolishing your beliefstructure if it doesnt fit inside and build your own based on experience . Sort of make it your own kit!

About Speirema/kundalini and Enlightenment had from it . It totally depends on your definition of Enlightment (heehehe perhaps on your definition of kundalini also since it is a subjectiv phenomen in the sence ,no one can measure it or say you got it on other basis than what you say you experience[]).

But since you have provided a definition of enlightment and i persive to be having kundalini ,(I could be just plain crazy[].)
ill try and answer it.
No you wont end all suffering most likely you get added suffering of varius kinds thise have to be dealt with either by alliviating them or finding a way to co exist with them or crazyness is surely had in sooner or later.

Hmm I think you will find it extremely hard to detachyourself from kundalini as you kinda goto detach yourself from the body also , i find it extremly hard to belive but i am not walking that path either . I can only imagine that if you succseeded in that you could have found a shortcut (off course depending on the time it took)

As to complete freedom , i dunno what you lay into it . I feel perhaps more free mentally , but more bound emotionally. So no not complete freedom.

Extreme wisdom , again extreme could be good for me , or superextreme. But better understanding off your mind and ego is to be had than before.

So if we tally up our points . I come to the conclusion that YOU wont find that much Enlightenment in Speirema/kundalini.
 
However since i feel i have a greater ease of seeing logic in things and understanding abstract situations better and devising my own theorys on how things work faster and understanding that thise theories are just that(and not cold hard facts)! And can be HORRIDLY wrong(perhaps the most precius skill[], hope i dont loose it)

All off thise terms would I like to put into my abstract term "ENLIGHTENMENT" and yes I have it .Partly as a DIRECT cause of Speirema(bet you know what i mean with that word now[])
And Partly as a INDIRECT cause , since it got me to research (still doing it) this phenomen , and those texts pertaining to this is MUMBO JUMBO(put your own meaning in[]) riddled with abstract terms going well into the cryptical!!!**

"" The rest is just me explaining a little about those text and abstraction.""[
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**Partly i guess since it is neccery since they are talking about unseen forces. partly because the writers want that no one that didnt share they ENTIRE world view should not understand a word ! And finnally A few seem to have taken great steps to insure no one understands it , so it would seem impressive!!

But it is entirely possible that they are meant to be so to train the brain dealing with abstract terms and Speirema sort off makes POTENCIAL for progress in this "art"(of confusion perhaps[]) of seeing things in other contexts and simplifying it (thought not often have wise men actually used it to that since Jesus days!!![]).

Anyway I was saying Speirema sort of makes Potencial but the texts and other activitys (like trying to make computer programs) realise it.

Off course i guess if i sit in a room thinking just about what the unseen is might be like. I can manage to realise my potencial in crypticallity to points where a ZEN master would look like a question mark. Crypticallity is abstraction skill used without precion and without giving a refferance to what the reciever has in common!!

[Tombo]

Thanks for the inputs. Has anybody a concept about what we (body,mind,soul, god, universe..) are that would explain Life, Obe's Kundalini and Enlightment altogether?[][?]

[jilola]

quote:Has anybody a concept about what we (body,mind,soul, god, universe..) are that would explain Life, Obe's Kundalini and Enlightment altogether?

Downright miraculous is what we are[8D] Amazing how we manage to think making coffee in the morning is something ordinary and unexiting. It's a miracle! Just think about what has had to have happened in order for us to be here maing coffee []

The answer to question can probably be likened to the Holy Grail. It would explain just about everything.
Reflections of the negation of void?

Take a look at http://www.azizkristof.org/ for a pretty good resource about enlightenment and what we are.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[dreamosis]

I actually think "enlightenment" very literally refers to what it looks like, a filling up with light.  "En-light-en-ment" happens everyday for me on small scales--little bits of information, realizations, connections.  The big "en-light-en-ment," such as the Buddha experienced...I don't pretend to know that's like.  I conceive it as similiar to what I'm undergoing now, but on a grand, complete scale--at some point the link between me (my body and spirit) and my higher self will be *clear,* unimpinged, dusted off.  

I am currently shifting modes of thinking.  For a long time even though I said I didn't believe in a perfection, I still had a picture/idea that that's what enlightenment was.  Now I prefer to say that it isn't perfection, but whole-ness.  It took me a long time to differentiate in my mind the difference between being perfect (infallible) and whole.

Kundalini comes into play for me here too.  My experience of Kundalini is that it is the highest individualized energy, the essence of you.  When I have Kundalini energy running, I feel untouched by what other people think and feel because the presence of my own spirit is so strong.  I feel able to answer any question for myself.  (I might be romantizing my experiences there, but that's pretty much it... )  

And there's a very funny dichotomy--by getting in touch with what is most me (my vibration of Kundalini) I feel most at balance with the rest of the universe.  It's like, by singing my note as best as I can, I fit into the chords of energy around me and in that way I blend with them.

Those are my thoughts...right now...

-Dreamosis

[Mystic Cloud]

quote:Originally posted by jilola

Living in a constant state of enlightenment is  well night impossible while were are incarnate. Reaching moments of the experience are extremely well done and essentially the same if one remains unattached to the enlightenment.

Actually it is possible to reach a 'constant' state of enlightement.
Atleast that state can last up to 3-4 months where you are 24/7
in that state. The side-effect is that you are all the time
so energized that you can not sleep for more than 3-4 hours / night.

[jilola]

Probably depends on the depth of the state.
I agree though, I was a bit hasty in writing it's near impossible.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[weetabix]

quote:Originally posted by tombodenmann

Thanks for the inputs. Has anybody a concept about what we (body,mind,soul, god, universe..) are that would explain Life, Obe's Kundalini and Enlightment altogether?[][?]

I've never understood why poeple can't agree all together...  Take all theories, cut some contradictions and you'll find the truth ![]  I mean, my conception of life didn't excludes any "phenomena".  It just change a little when I become aware of something new.  If you really want to know what we believe (Mine, in the event) I would tell you about Frank Hatem Hyperscience.  It's metaphysics. (Does somebody notice that I'm trying to plug it [] I hope somebody'll reply into my topic...[:I])  

But I think you're not really seeking the meaning of life, but most seeking about the meaning of YOUR life.. Don't you !?  [Maybe not... I make projection of what I've realyzed lately] It would be wize ! 'Cause we don't actualy have the power to change the world, but definitely have the power to change our-self.

-Weeta

[Mystic Cloud]

quote:Originally posted by weetabix

quote:Originally posted by tombodenmann

Thanks for the inputs. Has anybody a concept about what we (body,mind,soul, god, universe..) are that would explain Life, Obe's Kundalini and Enlightment altogether?[][?]

I've never understood why poeple can't agree all together...  Take all theories, cut some contradictions and you'll find the truth ![]  I mean, my conception of life didn't excludes any "phenomena".  It just change a little when I become aware of something new.  If you really want to know what we believe (Mine, in the event) I would tell you about Frank Hatem Hyperscience.  It's metaphysics. (Does somebody notice that I'm trying to plug it [] I hope somebody'll reply into my topic...[:I])  

But I think you're not really seeking the meaning of life, but most seeking about the meaning of YOUR life.. Don't you !?  [Maybe not... I make projection of what I've realyzed lately] It would be wize ! 'Cause we don't actualy have the power to change the world, but definitely have the power to change our-self.

-Weeta

Sweet, this is what I do also. Take all theories and hold them true until there comes contradictions, then I start digging what it is and
something is just gonna pop out as untrue. I'm interested in that hyperscience, got an url or something?

Well we have the power to change the world but we must begin by changing ourselves [|)]

tombodenmann

I don't think I understand what you are trying to ask since you
state things that does not have so much to do with each other.
For Kundalini some sources say that it is the energy of life and
without it we would not live. Don't have enough experience to
say what it is really. For OBE's I don't have either enough
experience but the mirror reflection RB suggested seems and feels real.

As for Enlightement I think it is a state where you are in direct
contact with 'everything'/your higher self. Thus you get answers
to all the questions instantly.

The human body again feels like a robot that we maneuver, nothing
too special about it except when you combine it with Spirit. The
mind is the processor of the robot, some say it is like a radio transmitter/receiver. Sometimes it feels like that too.

As for Life, it is an infinite learning/unlearning process which
exists because it chose to. It gets complicated because there are
infinite levels of Life. For example in shamanism everything is Spirit
thus you can communicate with it if you know the right language.
So everything is alive and is an entity that you can communicate with.

Talk about Alice in wonderland huh? []

As for God, it is a vast Being (that is very high up in the hierarchy?). So abstract that we can not understand it on this level
of existence, not even a small proportion. We are like an atom/cell
in its Being. Imagine our universe being infinite (infinite galaxies
etc.), it is all that.
Imagine many different dimensions being inifinite, it is all that too.
Imagine all the languages and thoughts, it is all that too.
Imagine all the forces that exists, it is all that too.
Imagine all the different particles, it is all that too.

Now imagine everything of this at the same time and hold that one.
Yes now you know a bit more of the Being. []

[Tombo]

Mystic cloud
Well le tme try to explain my question: I'm pretty heavy into Buddhism and Meditation the longer I meditate the more I believe that what the Buddha teached  is true.
Now on the other hand I read about Kundalini experiences and the enlightment states experienced. And I truely believe it.
Now I tried to fit the two things together in my own worldview so that is makes somehow sense. But I do have some trouble. I guesse I'm just breathless to see how extremly complex we are........

To all of you who believe permanent enlightment is not possible, I think you guys are wrong, there are some people that reached it for example Ajahn Chah. I think once you are completly enlighted there is no way back,  its a very fundamental experience.
What I actually tried to figure out was the relation between enlightment in Buddhism and enlightment in Kundalini, but since it is extremly difficult to understand what enlightment means (Although it sounds quite simple, I think it means "end of suffering")
From what I learned so far I would conclude that if one rises Kundalini one will not experience full enlightment, which wouldn't make too much sense anyways...[?][?][?]

[Moonburn33]

here's my own spin on enlightenment and kundalini:

i think that when kundalini is raised, it, in a sense, kicks up all the dust in your personality.  all of your imbalances are brought to the surface, or semi- surface and you have to deal with them.

enlightenment, in my opinion, is when you've dealt with all of your weaknesses and imbalances in your personality.   it's about emotional strength and psychological hardiness taken to extremes.  there is no shortcut to it- it's just a lot of hard work and involved confronting your personal demons more than anything else.

the cessation to suffering is due to the fact that you understand how "the game" is played and you're strong enough to deal with anything the universe throws your way.

[jilola]

Enlightenment can and has happened spontaneously.


2cents & L&L
Jouni

[weetabix]

According to my no-experience... I would say that Buddhism Enlightment is about causality and Kundalini Enlightment about spirituality.  Does it mean anything for someone ?  I explain.  Causality is how you undertand "universe".  When you reach buddhism enlightment, it's because you have no longer "good & bad" misundertood.  Spirituality is more related to emotion and energie.  You may not had understood the "cause of universe" but you can deal with in a better way (I lack of good words here...[xx(])

Whatever... both are very close each others

**I now realize it's like Moonburn33 has wrote during I was writing my own speech...[8D]

quote:Originally posted by Mystic Cloud
Well we have the power to change the world but we must begin by changing ourselves [|)]

yaya !  It's exactly the same when you believe (like I do) that the world is a projection (or perception) of your mind state.  By changing yourself, you actualy change the world...[^]

2 url overthere :
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12265

[Moonburn33]

i don't buy into the idea that there has been 'spontaneous' enlightenment.  i've never seen any proof of that- and anyone who has claimed it has either been trying to sell a book or was involved in testimonials to sell a book -or system.

anything going on in the person has been building up over time.

[jilola]

Indeed, one of the Four Wossnames(Precepts) "I vow to save the ten thousand sentient beings"  in fact refers to the unity of all and that by saving outself (by seeking enlightenment and by living your ife in compassion and love etc) you save all others.

There is only one existence and you are it. Thus the only thing that you can ( fact that each day proves true) change is yourself.

What enlightenment brings to the equation is the simplicity and understanding of what really is, what we really are and what our relation to the surrounding perceptual reality is. It doesn't give all the answers or any psychic powers. It only gives one unsurpassed superpower, being at peace as part of everything.


2cents & L&L
jouni

[Tombo]

It seems that Kundalini enlightment has a lot to do with your body where on the other hand Buddhism enlightment has to do with your mind but since body and mind are related it's still confusing:

I try to explain how I understood enlightment:
When you experience a headache you suffer cause you see the pain as your own You believe there is a self that can be hurt. when enlighted you understand that there is no self and that the pain can not bother you in any way, you are not the pain no suffering.

There's also an story were the Buddha stands in a forest and grabs a hand full of leafes. He explains that the leafes in his hand are what he teaches and that the whole forest is what there really is..

[Tombo]

First I want to say that I believe the highest goal one can strive for is not psychic powers but enlightment(the end of all suffering) therefore I do believe the issue raised by this post is very important.

It is said that raising the kundalini will lead to enlightment. I've just read the book by Gopi Krishna were he describes his Kundalini experiences. Now, He actually does describe states were he feels unified with everything and feels unconditional Love his descriptions are similiar to does by Rober Bruce but these states are limited in time and seem to make a normal life impossible.
to come to the point, these states are not what the Buddha descriped as enlightment, at the most, I would regard them as partial enlightments.
For me, enlightments means: the end of all suffering, there is no attachement to anything whatsoever, a completly enlighted person is in a permanent state of freedom does have extrem wisdom in the understanding of how the mind works the concept of an ego is understood as illusion by direct knowing.
What is puzzling me as well is the fact that in buddhas teaching the way to enlightment is meditation in a way that one does just observe the mind until one is completly liberated. No chakra mediation no energy raising involved, no kundalini like experiences involved.
Now my questions: Is the expression "enlightment" used in the Kundalini terminology something other then it is in Buddism and if so what is the relation between the two. Did maybe Robert and Gopi not walk the path to the end or how can one interprete this differences?

I'm very well aware, that probably nobody on this board has the answers but maybe someone has some insights or suggested reading on the matter

Cheers Tom