*PLEASE READ THIS * NEED YOUR OPINIONS*

[Spirit_Gurl]

huh? levels? i told you, i dont believe in karma or enlightenment, or different levels of existence. sorry.

any other people wanna share their opinions?

[Tom]

Not levels of existence. It is more like a microscope. If you start at 10x and switch to 100x you get much more magnification and a diferent perspective. Magnification is easy. Resolution is a different matter, the ability to see separate things as separate. If we are looking at the sky through a telescope at the andromeda galaxy, individual people there will be impossible to see. Their lives matter to them from their perspective, but we over here do not even know they are there.

[Spirit_Gurl]

so? it doesnt mean that they do or don't matter, it's just that we don't know they're there. what does this have to do with anything?

[Tom]

When you ask if something matters, automatically you imply both an observer and something which is observed. If there is no observer then nothing, no matter how great, can possibly matter. If would simply exist.

[Spirit_Gurl]

did i imply that? im sorry, it's my turn to be confused.

WHAT THE FREAK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

perhaps you can explain better? [B)]

[Hephaestus]

Its a case of we all have our own personal meanings for life and some of us dont have any, some agree with others and some disagree with others - if I was to imply the meaning to my and everyones existance was to be happy and that was (hypothetically) correct, to someone who disagrees with that they will still hold the question untill they find an answer to suit themselves.
The question what is life for, can only be answered by oneself.

The reason for happiness is to be happy.

[Tom]

It is possible that I still don't understand what you mean by talking about how something or someone matters. Usually when I hear someone talking and saying that someone or something matters there is an implied (to me). I can talk about the Chinese government suppressing freedom in Tibet, but maybe you would rather talk about how Israel bombs the Palestineans. If so, the Tibetans matter to me but not to you. Saddam Hussein probably doesn't care about either issue, but the idea of his country getting bombed again might matter a good deal to him. From the perspective of aliens living several stars away from us, we aren't even noticeable and so we do not matter. In no case that I know of can I say that someone or something matters with no one to feel it as important.

[Spirit_Gurl]

your right. you don't get it.

[Spirit_Gurl]

will my soul care if im happy?


or are you saying that my life truly is meaningless? might as well go kill myself.

[Spirit_Gurl]

will my soul care if im happy?


or are you saying that my life truly is meaningless? might as well go kill myself. im not really gonna do that, but tell me why i shouldn't. it's not like it MATTERS, apparently.

hesphestus (sp?) what are your opinions?

[Euphoric Sunrise]

If all there was to life was the physical plane, i wouldn't bother with it. People who live their lives oblivious to other dimensions etc. are wasting their time IMHO. I hold a firm belief that through astral travel we can find secrets that can answer any questions we hold.
What is the point of living if we're just going to die anyway? Only you can answer that question for yourself, but you can't answer it for anybody else. Just like nobody here can answer it for you.

[Tom]

You believe that you have a soul. Why not ask your soul if you or your happiness matters to it?

Is the expression "fishing for compliments" coming to mind for anyone else here?

[Celeste]

Hi Spirit Gurl,
 
 Maybe this isn't what your seeking either, but here's my go at it.  All life matters, the quality of your life matters--not only your happiness but the quality of your happiness.  I can't prove to you anything I say so take it for what it is worth to you.
 Everything matters,every action, every thought,every breath, every moment, everything known & unknown & on every realm. All is an interplay of energies. On a personal level either you raise your energy or you lower it. At any moment your energy vibration is at a certain level which causes you to be are aware of & interact with other energies that vibrate at the same level. All that is, is a part of the  Universal Spirit.  You said you believe in reincarnation but not karma? In my experience the two are inseparably linked & Universal Laws don't care who believes in them--like gravity.
 Sounds like your taking a jaunt down the existential/nihilistic--nothing matters detour. You will see verification of your belief as long as that's all your wanting/willing to see. Experience is the best teacher...  Do you have anything against meditation? Why not try meditation with the intention of if there is an Ultimate reality & a reason for my life--show me. Be sincere,  quiet and wait. In just regular consciousness , if you are open  & ask,  the Universe will reveal all sorts of amazing things to you.

 Tom:  To say Buddhism doesn't believe in God or the Soul can be misleading. They don't believe in one separate Supreme being that orchestrates everything but they believe in many deities & a whole array of Holy Beings aswell as Buddha.
  Not that you were relating it to existentialism but I found this interesting link that discusses it.

"Because Buddhism negates the existence of God and soul, many scholars, among them some Buddhists, mistakenly believe that Buddhism is related to existentialist philosophy. This is incorrect. Buddhism actually contradicts what is implicit in existentialism, and this point is proven if we look closely at three of the most important Buddhist concepts, Karma, Dharma and Nirvana:

  Karma: Buddhism teaches that what we do matters, and that good or skillful actions bring happiness, while bad or unskillful actions bring suffering. Actually, karma means that there is a cause and effect relationship between actions and their effects, so what we are experiencing in our lives is not pure accident, but was in fact initiated by ourselves in the past. Karma is also carried over from one life to the next, so our everyday actions not only have an impact on this lifetime, they are also shaping our future lifetimes.

Dharma: One of the meanings of Dharma is universal law. It is universal in the sense that it applies to all times and in all places. This means that there is an absolute standard of measure for all our actions. Buddhism teaches that in every situation there is a correct or dharmic way of action.

Nirvana: In Buddhism the goal of human existence is to achieve Nirvana, a state of being that is beyond this world. Buddhism points to a transcendental reality that is beyond this world, and the most important project we can have in our lives if to find this state. We can use the world to go beyond the world.

Have Existentialist principles ever been put into practice? The answer is yes, and with devastating consequences. Friedrich Nietzsche was Adolf Hitler's favorite philosopher, and Nietzche's concept of "superman" was one of the ideological pillars of Nazism. More recently, the Cambodian dictator Pol Pot (responsible for the deaths of a millon of his countrymen) was educated in Existentialist philosophy during the 1950's and 60's in France. More information can be found in the biography of Jean-Paul Sartre in the book The Intellectuals by Paul Johnson."
http://www.geocities.com/dharmawood/buddhism_existentialism_pt1.htm
Celeste

[Tom]

Odd. I knew nothing about existentialism. It sounds really depressing. I don't know how anyone could think of it and Buddhism on the same day.

[Spirit_Gurl]

You believe that you have a soul. Why not ask your soul if you or your happiness matters to it?

how? I don't know my spirit guide, and I dont know how to meditate.I haven't lucid dreamed or APed yet.

Is the expression "fishing for compliments" coming to mind for anyone else here?

why? is it coming to mind for you? you don't really even understand my question, so how can you judge me like that? how can you actually think that i'm asking this just for attention? you have no right to just assume that because i repeat myself, i am somehow here to waste your time. if you want me to go, i'll go. i wasn't aware that it was impossible to ask a question without 'fishing for complements'. would you like it better if i just stopped asking questions altogether? i have thanked you guys for your answers, and i did warn you at the beggining that i get emmotional sometimes. but of course, that was all for attention. i would never ask a question simply to get opinions, oh no, i need to get a few complements on the way. i'm not capable of asking a question without getting complemented. i'm just a little brat who spends all her time wasting yours.

i never forced you to answer, you know.  

[Spirit_Gurl]

You believe that you have a soul. Why not ask your soul if you or your happiness matters to it?

how? I don't know my spirit guide, and I dont know how to meditate.I haven't lucid dreamed or APed yet.

Is the expression "fishing for compliments" coming to mind for anyone else here?

why? is it coming to mind for you? you don't really even understand my question, so how can you judge me like that? how can you actually think that i'm asking this just for attention? you have no right to just assume that because i repeat myself, i am somehow here to waste your time. if you want me to go, i'll go. i wasn't aware that it was impossible to ask a question without 'fishing for complements'. would you like it better if i just stopped asking questions altogether? i have thanked you guys for your answers, and i did warn you at the beggining that i get emmotional sometimes. but of course, that was all for attention. i would never ask a question simply to get opinions, oh no, i need to get a few complements on the way. i'm not capable of asking a question without getting complemented. i'm just a little brat who spends all her time wasting yours.

i never forced you to answer, you know.  

[cainam_nazier]

The problem here is that you are asking a question that no one can answer for you.  And I know that is not the answer you are looking for.  The value of anything can only be given by you.

"Beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

I can in truth only answer the question for myself.  That being how my happiness matters to my soul, my world if you would.  I know that I effect my surroundings.  I wish to effect it in a positive way, so in that case my happiness matters.  It matters becasue when I am not happy I can see how it effects every thing else in my life, and I don't like it.

You say you know for a fact that reincarnation is real, that it happens.  Do you then know for a fact that you will be coming back?  Well I for one am not so sure, and I am sure that there are many who would like such solid garenties.  In this way too it matters to me, I don't know if I will return.  From what I have been told I have been here as many as 9 times, my time may be running short, so every thing I do matters because I do not know if I'll be back.  And I am certain that it mattered in my other lives as well because even then I didn't know I was coming back.  


No matter how times you ask the question you will never hear the answer you seek.  For every person the answer is different and it is a choice they made on thier own.   You and only you can choose the value of things and thier impact on your soul.

[David Walpole]

interesting comments, a signature at the bottom of a letter can mean so much. The fact that you can read a letter is one gift taken for granted. Being dyslexic I find so frustrating not being able to read some books, that are interesting subjects for me.  our happiness? Begins from the time we enter this earth our happiness depends on our parents. Unfortunately if we are in a, unhappy environment in childhood. we may be used to thinking negativity all the time which puts a damper on our happiness.
I guess most of us are  frightened To Die but you must be an open-minded on all things for example. There seems to be some proof of ghost. out-of-body experience. mediums talking to love one's past. Etc. surely you must take all these things into consideration (Dictated by Viavoice)

[James S]

Hi Tia,

You are getting so many different and confusing answers because the questions you ask really do have different meanings for different people. What the meanings are to someone depend entirely on what their beliefs are.

I'm not going to give you my answers to those question, as like the other answers given, they might be of no help to you at all. What I will suggest to you though is to have a really good look at what you believe in, because it will be from this belief that you will find the answers you seek and they will actually make sense and mean something to you.

You have stated that you don't believe in karma or enlightenment, but you do believe in reincarnation and God. You have also stated that you will think about the beliefs of others as long as they don't conflict with your own. That's fair enough. The best way to get confused is to start tacking on other beliefs to your own, especially if they clash. I've had this happen myself, from spending many years learning the beliefs of the christian church, then being presented with things that those beliefs could not deal with.

Ok, that's where you should start - take what you do believe in and work with that. Firstly, make sure that you really do believe in those things, from your heart, and not just because someone told you to believe them. If it helps, write down what you really do believe, as this will help you focus your thoughts.

This might seem like a pointless excercise, but knowing and being comfortable with your belief really is the key to understanding what your soul is, what your purpose or destiny might be, all of that.

One point that you might want to think about - there in no one right answer only. Just as you have your own personality and way of thinking about things, there is an answer that is right for you. God is far more flexible than most religions make him out to be, and he is not going to leave someone out of the picture just because they don't personally agree with the teachings of one particular religion.

Have I helped or just confused you more? I would like to help you find the answers.

My own personal belief considers that yes you are important, you have a purpose or a role to play. Yes you will die one day and then this world will no longer mean anything at that point, but your soul will carry on, and will take with it the memories of Tia - all the love, the sadness, the lessons of life she learned while on this earth. Nothing is lost, nothing is of no importance. It all gets carried on.
As to happiness? well, would you rather go through life enjoying things, or not caring about anything? It doesn't matter wether happiness means anything at the end of it all, but it does make getting there a lot more fun.

James

[kakkarot]

spirit_gurl, what would you loose if you died?

~kakkarot

[Adept_of_Light]

quote:Originally posted by Spirit_Gurl

my name is Tia. I am 13 4/12.
I dont believe in karma or enlightenment. i believe in reincarnation and God.

Dear Tia,

You mentioned you were Jewish. Well in the Jewish *mystical* kaballah (ask your rabbi about this), the equivalent of enlightenment is when one has reached the highest sphere of the Sephirah. In the Hindu tradition, just as in the mystical Jewish tradition, this process is broken down into various stages, with each stage ending in the word Samadhi. Buddhism and Christianism alike have their own versions of this, although in the Christian faith this is not openly talked about and is for the most part concealed/hidden or made "occult" (knowledge guarded in secret).

At the ultimate and final Samadhi, one transcends the Self and merges with God (or the ALL - everything - however one chooses to interpret this concept) thus becoming omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing), omnipresent (being everywhere at once). The path one must trek to be successful in such a venture, is one that takes many lifetimes, and is a reality, (whether you are conscious of it now or not),  the ultimate goal of all spirits - regardless of which faith they belong to.

quote:
okay. how does my life matter? when I die and yaddayaddayadda, will my soul care? it's not because i effect others, because how do they mater? it's not an intertwining tapestry... how does anything matter? we're all gonna die anyway. who, in the long run, will care if i die tomorrow? how does it matter if I'm happy right now?

The questions you raise have been asked for millenia by countless humans. The answers are unfortunately not exactly simple and I will not pretend to be able to know them myself. Further, the complete answers to such basic but crucial questions aren't always conveyable in language form. Many great philisophers, spiritual men, and intellectuals alike have attempted to encompass the meaning of life in an all inclusive description - but to date none has succeeded. You see, the human mind can make sense of many things, but there are aspects of objective reality that can not be confined to intellectual ascertations, they simply transcend the mind and intellect.

This disclaimer aside, I will make my best attempt at an answer. Life does matter to your higher-self - that spiritual, eternal and invisible aspect of Self that at this moment, perhaps unconscious to you, aspires to become one with God (reach enlightenment). Such is the basic drive behind the concept of reincarnation. Life represents opportunity for self-improvement in all possible areas. Self-improvement toward perfection and purity.

All humans strive toward happiness, even the ones we deem as bad or evil; the difference being, such individuals take their pleasure from perverse forms of it, hoping to catch glimpses of satisfaction which they erroneously associate with happiness. Happiness as we have come to know it is certainly not a permanent thing. This is in part because the roots of such happiness are derived from things which are temporal (non-permanent) in life; such as personal achievements which took place at a specific time in your life, materialistic acquisitions, instances of giving and receiving etc. My point being that physically incarnated humans are incapable of permanent happiness and this is why, as you will find out in your life, all of us suffer in some form or another. You may have heard before the popular saying "I'm human, I am not perfect". However; if we worked towards perfection (as is GOD - the one thing that is permanent and eternal), then we could achieve endless happiness because we would transcend the Self.

Onto the second question... Others matter because others whom are more spiritually evolved than you may aid you in your life, and those whom are not as spiritually evolved will also aid you in recognizing and appreciating how far you've come in this life-time. Furthermore, humans are influenced and shaped mentally and spiritually by the environment they live in and the experiences they pass through. Others on this Earth play a big role in these two things. This question could lead to me writting a great number of paragraphs, and identifying further reasons, but these surface level ones should suffice for now.

Next one... Yes we are all going to lose our physical shells (die), but rest assured our spiritual counterparts are eternal - such is the truth and lesson behind all major world religions. Surely 6 billion people can't all be mistaken eh ? [] What survives physical death is our spiritual self. The only thing you can take away with you when you physically die is the positive and negative karma you've accumulated as well as any spiritual progress or degredation that you've made. Possession, knowledge, intellect, likes and dislikes, etc shall all die with your physical shell.

Part 4 (who will care if I die?)... Well on a basic level, surely all those that love you, like your family and friends will care a whole lot as will most anyone whom you've deeply touched throughout your life thus far. But from a spiritual perspective, dying or living can not be quantified by caring. That is a human made word trying to quantify a characteristic experienced by other humans.  From the perspective of higher spiritual spheres which lay beyond limited human understanding (mine included at this point in time), caring is simply not part of the equation. Before humanity every existed, concepts such as caring (and even happiness for that matter), did not exist. Such ideas, are our attempts at giving meaning to what we sense throughout our lives, but those are subjective experiences and do not represent reality as it objectively is. To get back on subject... A cycle of life consists of basically: You are born, your previous lifetime karma will determine your new life circumstances, during your new life you will take actions which shall accumulate more positive or negative karma, you will die. Your higher-self will reflect upon the life you've just lived for and indermined period of time, and then you shall be reborn. This endless cycle is only broken when you reach the ultimate form of enlightenment and transcend the Self. Such achievement however shall have as a pre-requisite that your karmic 'account' so to speak, reaches a state of absolute equilibrium... being neither positive nor negative as it was before your spirit ever existed.

Part 5 (what does it matter if I am happy right now?). It won't to most human beings on this Earth, but it surely matters to you if you dig down deep enough. As I've said before, *ALL* humans conciously or unconciously strive toward a state of pleasure or happiness - such is the reasoning behind our every desires which are motive for our actions - be these instinctual or intentional in nature.

quote:

I'll always have another life to be happy in anyway.

Perhaps, that shall be dependant on your karma accumulation up to that point as well as the 'work' you do toward reaching states of happiness in that lifetime.

Lastly, the concept of karma, or the Universal Laws underlining the existance of karma surely care not if you believe in them or not - they  simply are a fact of life as is the invisible air you breathe.
Before humans had even a choice in believing or not in gravity, it already existed. In our current existance, it is not up to us to determine or choose what the various aspects of the ultimate and all encompassing reality consist of, such matters have already been predetermined for us all. []

I hope my efforts have (pardon the pun) enlightened you a little more,
Take good care Tia,
Adept_of_Light

[Spirit_Gurl]

thanks for replying, but, I don't believe in karma, or enlightenment, so.... just because im jewish by birth doesnt mean i somehow have to have the same beliefs. just because you tell me that they karma is still there wether i believe it or not; it doesnt mean i believe it! i simply do not believe in karma or enlighenment, no matter how much you say that they exist, i just can't believe that. you even quoted me saying that as the first few things i ever said on this entire site, "I do not believe in karma or enlightenment". and yet you ignored that. i appreciate it that you cared enough to reply, but im sorry to say that i still dont believe in karma.

kakkarot, I assume you have some weird reason for asking that, so il tell you. i guess i would lose everything physical. so? i could always be physical again someday, if i wanted to.

[Adept_of_Light]

Dear Tia,
It was not my intent to convert your beliefs, only to offer some explanation as to why others might believe in what you do not. In my answer I tried to explain that the two things you believe in (God and reincarnation) are closely intertwined with the two things you do not believe in (karma and enlightenment), and with that as a base, attempt to answer some of your other questions.

I must say for a 13 year old girl, you raise some very good questions, but even at my age (27) having put a few years of study in these areas, I will fully admit that I have no absolute clarity in regard to all these topics myself. I can only comprehend so deep in each one, eventually I reach a point where the complete answers to my questions are not found in any books or in the words of wiser men than I. Some things just are the way they are and answers are not found in words, but in direct spiritual experience.

You may find it an interesting fact that in the Jewish tradition the study of the mystical Kaballah (the area of Jewish study which is focused on such deep questions) is usually only undertaken by those of 40 years of age or older. Until that day, continue to ask many questions, and search for your own answers. Do not believe what anyone else says to you at face value, do your own research, walk your own path and surely you will come to your own conclusions

Take care Tia,
Adept_of_Light

[Celeste]

Hello Tia,
I have no desire to change your beliefs. I didn't "ignore" anything you said. You asked. I, answered. I didn't take your comment to mean that if I had a different view point then you about karma, etc..that I was unwelcome to reply.
Happy Trails, Celeste

[Spirit_Gurl]

oh, did i say that? quote me on it, wherever you found it. i wasn't aware that i had said it. please, do show me.