traditional elements

[Adept_of_Light]

Dear Lysear,

The traditional elements of magic (Fire,Water, Earth, Air), are not to be confused with their physical counter parts. Magicians used these words because they best represented the characteristics of the 'invisible' forces which permeate all physical matter.

The elementary theory is one which quite accurately describes physical manifestation (as accurately as mere words allow) and in itself lacks nothing, therefore has nowhere to evolve, it has already been perfected.

So it is not a question of these 'old' concepts not having evolved with science... it is actually modern science that stripped these theories down to their base level, ridding them of any philosophical/spiritual content and thus creating a very limited 'science' which describes ONLY the physical world. Because of this dissection process, what we are left with at present is a science that remains quite incomplete and leaves much to be *RE*-discovered.

Chemistry came from Alchemy once it was stripped down to its mere physical properties. Astronomy came from Astrology, when once again it was restricted to encompass only its physical properties. The same can be said for the other major sciences of Math, physics etc. If you look at the founding fathers of these sciences, they were more concerned in studying spiritual aspects, rather than mere material properties.

Unfortunately, the understanding of the Universe and all its planes of existence can't be concisely described in the mere language of words, for it far transcends this. This is why there is no one book or collection of works (nor will there ever be) which explains all that exists or how it works perfectly. Language can only provide a decent description of the physical plane. To describe what lay beyond this in language format, can only be done by using the method of ANALOGY, and hence the terms Fire,Air,Water,Earth.

Cheers,
Adept of Light

[Lysear]

"The traditional elements of magic (Fire,Water, Earth, Air), are not to be confused with their physical counter parts. Magicians used these words because they best represented the characteristics of the 'invisible' forces which permeate all physical matter."


I like your reply, thanks for that. However I will have to disagree with you. Of course the spiritual elements are inextricably linked to their physical counterparts. It is from these physical "elements" that people of the past thought up the spiritual ones. Also, when considering the properties of the magickal elements, they are  based on the physical ones, eg. coolness and dryness for earth, warmth and moistness for air etc.

[Rob]

Yeah, I dont think its a coincidence that there are 4 elements corresponding to 4 distinct states of matter. Although, interestingly, there are actually 5 elements - the last being akasha. And this also has its physical correspondance in a 5th state of matter - ORMUS metals, rediscovered relatively recently, highly spiritual and very other-worldly.
But, the elements themselves do go beyond the physical counterparts, to describe things that have no relation to a pure physical thing eg emotional levels.

This is an exercise that was suggested in franz bardons book. Take a sheet of paper, and draw a big line down the middle. On the left write down all your bad qualities, insecurities, etc. For every one think/feel what element is associated with it, and how often it occurs. On the right do the same, for all your positive traits. I find this very useful eg for identifying elements, how they relate to me, and what I can do to even things out more. Cements them in place. I do wonder if this is just an arbitary classification system or whether it has real objective value in identifying true areas of the human psyche. I think I'd go for the latter but it does seem tenuous sometimes.

[Adrian]

Greetings,

One of the most important aspects of progress along the path is total control of the ego to the point it is rendered harmless. This could go hand in hand with elemental equilbrium in that every negative attribute is attributable to a particular element - this also applies to positive as well as negative traits.

By transmuting a negative attribute to it's corresponding positive attribute (the true meaning of alchememy - base into precious metals)then progress towards elemental equibrium, i.e. balance can be made. The objective is to achieve a state of only positive attributes, and all fully balanced in accordance with the elements.

Regarding the original question, and as has already been said, the entire universe in all of its spheres came into being when the elements with their unique properties decended from the ether. Fire, Air, Earth and Water are not the physical things of the material world, but rather are analogous to their universal attributes.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Lysear]

I havent heard the 5th element called akasha before, I like that word, i may use it more! I usually call it spirit.

[Adrian]

Greetings Lysear,

The Akasha is not an element per se, it is rather the quintessence of the four main elements.

The Akasha principle is actually the Ether, The All, Divine Providence, "God" etc..

And then of course there is the electric and magnetic fluids []

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Electro]

I dont know what u all think but i mess around a bit with witchcraft and u have to be able to control the 4 elements and im prety good with air.

[jilola]

Also obviously Akasha/spirit correlation nicely fits into the usual assignment of the elements to the pentagram.

The elements of ritualized magic(k) are essentially a framework and an organizational tool which can be used to render the non-physical concepts capable of being thought of.

Only don't quote me on that, with regard to magic(k) I'm worse than clueless, I have a slight clue.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[13]

Lysear, the Elements are very real and many trained magicians work directly with them, astrally and mentally, so although it is true to say they have no *direct* (or rather *pure*) physical manifestation, they are not abstract either. In hermetic science and the western mystery tradition, all manifestation, even on the highest and seemingly infinite planes, arose from the first element, the truly Causal, called Akasha. This element *is* pure Intelligence, God, Divine Providence, etc. However it is the only 'element', as we use the term, that can exist in both unmanifest and manifest states... all other elements do not exist in (absolutely) unmanifest states.

Adrian is right, in the causal chain, the electric and magnetic fluids (Franz Bardon's terminology) came first, not the elements. The term electric does not refer to electricity, it refers to expansive, massively vibrant, blinding light, searing heat, etc. It's nature is projective. The term magnetic does not refer to mangestism either, but rather to contractive, cold, attractive. It's nature is receptive. Everything in Creation, low to high, is composed of these two 'fluids'.

The four Elements are adaptations of these two fundamental forces. Fire *is* the electric fluid, Water *is* the magnetic fluid. Air is the absence of either, or rather, it is abstractly "non-commitment (to form)", taking the moisture (or abstractly "no density") from Water but not taking the property of contraction or magnetisation, and it takes the property of dryness (or abstractly "no temperature") from Fire without taking the property of expansiveness or white heat/light. It only exists where Fire, Water and Earth are absent, which is why the ancients termed this element "Air" - it behaves exactly like physical air in that respect. The *force* that is apparent from physical Air is a property of conjoining with Earth at the physical density. Earth is opposite to Air, it is the *consumation* of the two fluids, and incorporates Air also. Instead of borrowing individual properties from the other 3, it *merges* what seem to be irreconcilable differences, such as expansiveness and contraction becoming "density" or simply "presence". For physical manifestation (presence) *all* elements must borrow from Earth, and thus are not expressed entirely purely. The closest physical manifestation of Fire isn't actually fire, it is the searing hot and bright energy in a bolt of lightning. The closest physical manifestation of Water is almost totally freezing water, such as occurs in the deep ocean or at the poles - it is not ice because that is too dense and "form-full". It is dark, freezing, motionless water. This is how the two polarities in existence (electric, magnetic) become four elements.

Humans can train themselves to perceive and manipulate all elements, since we possess within us all 5 elements. There are Beings of the Elements - we call them gnomes, sylphs, salamanders, undines, etc - which are purely composed of their respective element. They can only manifest physically to humans when provided with physical-density Earth with which to materialise.

Inguma's comment is interesting..the parallels to states of matter are good, but a more accurate comparison is to the fundamental universal forces. Quantum physics now recognises that there are only 4 fundamental expressions of force, known as the Strong, the Electromagnetic, the Weak and the Gravitational. After over five hundreds years of post-middle ages thought, science has finally caught up with ancient hermetic knowledge. These four forces correspond to the elements, and even more startling is the way in which these four fundamental forces resolve into two complementary forces. Reducing the laws of physics, to state all existence in terms of two forces is known commonly as the attempt at a "Grand Unification Theory". The reconciliation of those two polarities/forces into a single expression of all manifestation is known as "Super Unification", the formulae of which would describe Akasha physically (and only physically). Incidentally, String Theory contains endlessly more startling confirmation of much spirital knowledge in it than mere quantum mechanics does. If anyone finds it interesting, check http://physicalworld.org/restless_universe/html/ru_5_23.html for a brief description of the physical forces.

[Lysear]

"Lysear, the Elements are very real and many trained magicians work directly with them, astrally and mentally, so although it is true to say they have no *direct* (or rather *pure*) physical manifestation, they are not abstract either."

I disagree, just because magicians have used a system of elements for years and have found that they work well, doesnt mean that they are the building blocks of the universe, or that they are not an abstract concept. People have used these elements for so long, they could have manifested in the "astral plane" and thus became real to an extent. (incidentally, I also see the astral plane as an abstract concept.) or if you like, people have used them for so long, they have made a permanent hole in the collective conciousness of the world, and they have become the most effective system this way.

We do not really know the nature of the universe, we can only speculate on it, and the system of the elements, in my opinion, is just one of these speculations that we make.

[13]

LOL []

quote:We do not really know the nature of the universe, we can only speculate on it

Too true friend, so long as you apply that statement to your own opinions as well.[]

The answer is not theoretical. For novice magicians, the question is valid. For those who can condense and project the elements in their own bodies, your opinion is as purely speculative as my opinion appears to you.

[Lysear]

Yes, I always try to apply this to myself, but I am not always successful!

[13]

Hi timeless, thanks for the compliments [].

IMHO you have some really good ideas on the psychological manifestation of the elements... I think you might find value in a similar list by Franz Bardon (in his introductory Theory section to Initiation Into Hermetics) of temperaments associated with each Element. For those interested in *practically* sensing, understanding and manipulating the Elements, that book is the single best volume in existence for doing so, written by a true Adept.

The difference of opinion with Lysear is not uncommon - on the surface the Elements appear to be a mere philosophy, especially so when applied to one's psyche (eg, like I-Ching, etc). The elements *must* be practically used to derive *any* value at all - mere knowledge of them is worthless. Many occult abilities (some quite fantastic) are possible through accumulating, condensing and projecting the Elements. Lesser magical traditions, namely GD, have only indirect and weak methods for working with the elements - Bardon's course on hermetics truly is the best.

[13]

"Initiation Into Hermetics" by Franz Bardon (Merkur 2001 Ed is ISBN 1885928068 []). Written 1940-1960 (I have no specific idea - maybe someone else knows?) before Bardon died a martyrs death in a Czec prison. He wrote three (complete) books, apparently at the request of Divine Providence, explaining some of the most powerful methods for elemental magic, astral and mental travel, evocation, and *practical* qabbalah. I'm sure many people on these boards know him and are practicing also.

If you proceed, two really valuable resources I know of are the BardonPraxis yahoogroup, and the website of the owner of that group, Rawn Clark, an extremely accomplished Initiate who makes himself available to the internet for the love of the job, similarly to Robert Bruce []. Not only is he very powerful, but he is very accessible, friendly and genuinely desires the hermetic progress of those he instructs.

[kifyre]

Wait, so are the electric and magnetic fluids another name for yin and yang? That doesn't quite jive with 13's explanation above, as far as I can tell.

[n/a]

traditional elements? of what? the science? what science?
the magic? or today stupid sciences(sciences of belief)?

element Earth: gravitational force []
element water: electro-magnetical force  [:I]
element fire : weak nuclear force []
element air  : strong nuclear force. []
element Void : ANTI-MATTER=>GENIUS=GENII=DAEMON=>DRAGON!

[Radha]

I think a useful book for anyone wanting a better understanding of the elements is "Natures Finer Forces" by Ram Prasad.  I went out of print in the late 1800's I beleieve but it is usually still floating around in reprints.
I would offer a small cautionary note however, and that is to not try to use the Tattva in your elemental studies.
Another take on elementals would be Algernon Blackwood's writings.  A lot of truth in them.  Same for Dion Fortune's old books.

[n/a]

dream on, Radha.

[Murt]

I'v probably used the tattwa symbols over a period of five months, streched over one and a half years, and they have had a very profound effect !
I am having trouble understanding the effects, and what they mean, (besides a mind that goes at 170mph !)
Does anyone know more about the tattwa, and how it affects a person?

[Tisha]

Good Gracious!  You use symbols in your magic you don't understand? You scare me! EEK!

[TheLunatic]

quote:Originally posted by Azaithoth999 the red

traditional elements? of what? the science? what science?
the magic? or today stupid sciences(sciences of belief)?
element Earth: gravitational force []
element water: electro-magnetical force  [:I]
element fire : weak nuclear force []
element air  : strong nuclear force. []
element Void : ANTI-MATTER=>GENIUS=GENII=DAEMON=>DRAGON!

I could possibly understand your linking of all the previous items except void with anti-matter. How do you arrive at your conclusion?

-Luke of borg

[n/a]

I think I know a English, little bit better then you.
(unfortunately, -because I am Islandic.)

you should have writen:
"How DID you arriveD TO your conclusion?"

What? your hands are shaking, professor?

[Nagual]

you should have written:
"you should have written:
"How DID you arrive(no extra D) TO your conclusion?"" []
Who's going to correct me...? []

[Murt]

Capital Y at the start of a sentance !.
'you should have written:'
he he he.

[TheLunatic]

quote:Originally posted by Azaithoth999 the red

I think I know a English, little bit better then you.
(unfortunately, -because I am Islandic.)
you should have writen:
"How DID you arriveD TO your conclusion?"

Well perhaps but that's completely unimportant and the question still stands. I'm not trying to find fault with you, I'm simply interested in how you relate anti-mater with void.

I also agree with you about the borg. The USA is like the borg and that isn't a good thing.