A new approach (and a challenge)

[Ten]

Exactly Timandra!!! The colour of the wallpaper is what I would most like to know. You'd think i'd have got off my bum and gone and had a look for myself by now eh? haha.

So any of you luverly peeps got any opinions on my experiences forward slash difficulties? c'mon lets have em.

xx

[Stookie]

1. Every time I get comfortable I get an intense itch somewhere completey random that I just can't ignore.

2. On the rare occasions that i don't get itchy, i relax deeply but my eye-lids start to flutter un-controllably. So frustrating I could scream

These are very normal sensations when starting out. As you enter into trance and sensory input slows down, it makes all the little things you normally ignore very irritating, especially itches and muscle twitches. The only way I know to overcome this is practice. As your body and mind get more used to the trance state it will become much more normal.

[Ten]

Hey all had a much more relaxed version of the vibes this weekend but still no OBE. Been busy trawling through the peer reviewed literature on the subject to see what the scientific community make of all this. Tried to attach a paper here but it's not letting me for some reason. Anyone thats intrested just pm me and i'll mail you what I have. One paper investigated over 11,000 poeple from UK, USA, and Canada.
@Kurt you fancy spending an hour thinking about me?  and also do you know anyone more accomplished than yourself at this AP malarkey?
xx

[Xanth]

If any of you have googled Kaiteur falls and are wondering where the wooden floor was, I assure you there is a wooden guest house up there  

Also here are the problems i'm having at the moment with trying to AP.

1. Every time I get comfortable I get an intense itch somewhere completey random that I just can't ignore.

2. On the rare occasions that i don't get itchy, i relax deeply but my eye-lids start to flutter un-controllably. So frustrating I could scream

Could stay up all night chatting about this but gonna hit the sack now and see waht the night brings. Night all. I'll be straight back on in the morning.
x

I've got a slightly different view on itches.
If you've got an itch that you just can't ignore... scratch it. 
Move slightly and slowly... keeping your mind where it is and solve the issue.  Then go back to meditating.

When you're trying to go to sleep at night and you have an itch, what do you do?  You scratch it.
Shouldn't be any different here. 

[kurtykurt42]

@Kurt you fancy spending an hour thinking about me?  and also do you know anyone more accomplished than yourself at this AP malarkey?
xx

Nope Ten, I'm the best! 

Just kidding... Of course, there are many others that are better than me but you'll find that most of them are rather busy and don't have time to help (non-believers) try to understand how astral projection works.

[Xanth]

Just kidding... Of course, there are many others that are better than me but you'll find that most of them are rather busy and don't have time to help (non-believers) try to understand how astral projection works.

From the stuff you've been posting lately... no, there aren't.

I do wanna point out one thing though...
I don't think it's that we "don't have the time", it's more that this is really something you have to learn for yourself.
I know that kinda leaves the skeptics at an impasse... but meh, if they *REALLY* want to know then they'll put the time in to learn it.
Anyways, it's not our job to help them understand how Astral Projection works... it's our job to help teach them how to do it so they can understand it on their own terms at their own speed.      ... I guess that's my two cents. 

[kurtykurt42]

Not everyone that practices astral projection is a member of this forum. There are may others out there that are awesome at astral projection that only write books or practice in their spare time.

It's not our job to help skeptics but it can be fun! 

[Stookie]

I think the people who really find the truths they're looking for are fairly modest about their claims, which is why you don't have a lot of people claiming to be experts or guaranteeing anything. They just want others seekers to find what they have.

[horaciocs]

I think we should advise non-believers or those who want to believe to give meditation and other practices a try. Personal experience can't be beaten.

However, it is really hard for some people. It gets to the point where they give up on trying to believe.

I, myself, haven't projected yet, but I totally agree with the ideas discussed in the forums and constantly try to project. That's specially because I have done some energy works and I have experienced it. Otherwise, I would probably have lost interest.


I think our job is to give some advice, firstly. In some cases, however, I find it's worth to give out some evidence to keep them going.

[kurtykurt42]

If we can convince a couple of skeptics that this is real and they can convince a couple more skeptics... Then we will have made a real difference.

[Xanth]

If we can convince a couple of skeptics that this is real and they can convince a couple more skeptics... Then we will have made a real difference.

Why?

I'm still not understanding why you feel the need to 'convince' anyone?

They either come here to to these forums (or other forums like this) to learn or ridicule.
We help one and ignore the other.

[Stookie]

Yeah, I could care less about convincing anyone who doesn't want to believe it. Just like I don't want anyone to push their religion on me. I can accomplish more with the people who are already interested.

[Harrif]

I agree.. trying to convince skeptics, or anyone other for that matter, for the sake of convincing is a waste of time. If they are interested enough, they'll find out for themselves.. otherwise they can ignore any evidence even if it is in plain sight for anyone to see, if they don't want to include this in their reality. And even when some skeptics "convert", the rest of the skeptics will see him as an outcast who isn't fit to convince anyone of anything anymore.. afterall he/she was weak enough to start believing in nonsense when the rest have spend so much time and energy undermining the same thing..

The same seems to apply in science.. if someone seems to gather some evidence which supports some activity which is seen now as "paranormal" he is ridiculed / ignored by scientific society, even if he has the approriate education and certifications etc. If the sosial group as a whole isn't ready to accept something, then a few individuals can't force them change their beliefs. In the end it's all about beliefs, because true objectivity is a fantasy and self-deceit.

Well atleast that is how I see things.. still that doesn't mean that I don't enjoy occasionally discussing these things with skeptical people, or maybe even showing a thing or two, which might or might not convince them.. that is if they aren't totally closed minded individuals. Mostly I just try to get them to question their deep rooted beliefs if possible.. That is benefitial for anyone imo.

[personalreality]

Do you need proof from someone before you're willing to try it yourself?  Or are you just super skeptical?

Not all explanations of Astral Travel say that people are actually leaving their bodies and flying around the physical.  Some people don't believe that something like Robert Bruce's Real Time Zone exists.  Some believe that anytime someone projects that even if they wind up in an environment that looks like physical world surroundings, it's still just an astral copy that was generated from the mind of the projector. 

And in all truth, Astral Projection is about exploration and personal growth, not about validation.  People who need validation are probably government spooks who want to use AT or remote viewing, or the like for military applications.  Those who have experienced it know what the reason they still do it is because their lives have changed because of it.

Also.....I personally believe that objective proof of anything is impossible.  If each of us has a unique perception and experience of existence that is entirely subjective then it doesn't make sense for objectivity to exist.  It would be wasteful.  "So how is it that we can measure and record data to generalize across large populations?!?"  Blah Blah.  Because the majority of powerful beings in this shared reality agree that consensus reality works that way. 

Just try it for yourself.  I hope you find the validation you need, if you really want it.

[thirdeye26]

Hi David... I wonder if what you are proposing is possible. I mean, an expert astral projector might be able to project into your bedroom. But you will be in your physical body. I wonder if, with your undeveloped psychic senses, you will be able to see the astral body of the projector who has come to see you. I wonder if you will be able to able to hear his/her words. You might sense them in your subconscious. Or if you are asleep, you might remember it as an absurd fragment of a dream (which is not the proof you are looking for.) That's why, my friend, you have to find your truth yourself.

[Ten]

Wow. Really didn't expect to generate this much intrest!! . Mixed feelings about some of the things you guys have said. First of all let me make myself PERFECTLY clear.
1. I am not a skeptic.
2. I don't have a closed mind.
3. I believe the government have a lot more resources at their disposal then I do to look into this. In fact i'm pretty damned sure they do. I'm a bloody biology student living off beans on toast for crying out loud. I also don't believe the government would have any need to trawl through internet forums.
4. I am open to any and all suggestions/teachings/advice. I will take any and all comments seriously. If you tell me to get naked smear jam all over myself and hop around my living room in an anti clockwise direction I will give it a go if for no other reason then to eliminate it as a possibility.
5. There is absolutely nothing wrong with the scientific method. Anybody who doubts this should do me the favour of investing as much time into researching it as I have with this.
6. I am not making any judgements at all about any of this and am trying diligently to AP
7. If someone makes a claim you should be able to test it. An example; Gravity is an attracting force. Bigger objects exert more of a pull than smaller ones. You can test this right now by picking up an object and letting go of it. I CLAIM IT WILL FALL TO THE FLOOR. you can do this a million times and every time the object will fall to the floor. This is because the Earth (A relatively MASSIVE object) exerts more of a pull than your (relatively small) object. 

[Ten]

Just a few more comments (sorry guys )

@Xanth, really loved the comment about teaching people how to do it so they can learn about it for themselves. Good work bud. So teach me how to do it. I'm all ears  . Also really liked your help one ignore the other comment. I would like all the help you can give me please.

@Harrif where exactly is "this evidence" that is in plain sight for all to see? For I would dearly love to see it.

@personal reality. you made a bit of a hash of explaining objectivity i feel. However I think I got your message and appreciate your kind words. Thankyou

@Thirdeye. WHAT??? you had me in stitches. I do humbly apologize for my "undeveloped psychic senses".
However if you do me the honour of taking the time to read this thread properly then you will see that what I proposed demands absolutely NO psychic ability on my part whatsoever. I have never ever claimed to have any kind of psychic ability. But I feel that those that do have a responsibilty to back up those claims. You could for example just keep it to yourself if you wanted to avoid questions. Anybody who chooses to make public claims about this though has to expect at THE VERY LEAST some polite enquiry.

Haha thanks for tuning in guys. Keep smiling and have a fabulous day.
Peace xxx

[Harrif]

I was referring to other things, some conspiracy theories etc, but I have no intention on cluttering this topic with things that would be off-topic(more than I already did). But anyway, I meant that convincing the closed-minded and/or skeptics is useless.. both of which you say you aren't, so my reply was more of a reply to Kurtys opinion where he seems to think that convincing skeptics as useful thing to do. Not that there would be anything wrong in doing so, I just think one could use the time much better.. like giving pointers to people who want to learn the stuff, not disprove it in advance.

I do hope that you can experience this for yourself, and I'm sure you can, if you are willing to put the hours in it. Who knows, maybe you are a natural and don't even need that much work before your first OBE. But even then, it will be a matter of belief what you make of the experience.. anything can be a "trick of the mind" afterall. But still, experiencing how much more real it is than a dream (or 'real' life ) should atleast give something to think about when it happens to you.

Good luck!

[Ten]

@Harrif. Fairplay. Makes a little more sense. Thankyou ever so much for your words of encouragement. Also i've just finished reading several papers in peer reviewed journals about the nature and effects of DHT (not the illegal narcotic kind, the kind that naturally exists within certain cells in your brain) ever wondered how you 'see' in a dream when your eyes are closed? It is proposed that dreams are controlled hallucinations generated by the DHT in your brain. It is further proposed that all of 'wide awake reality' is nothing more than a carefully controlled hallucination generated by your brain. So you are absolutely bang on the money i'd say. Who indeed can say what is really real? I personally am undecided as of yet and believe that much more research is required. On a side note something just occured to me. All those of you who do genuinely have a problem with empirical research and the scientific method do me a favour. Log off and go throw your pooters in the bin. Because without either of those things you wouldn't be sat reading this now. haha. How do ya like them apples?
On another side note if you would like to start or direct me to another thread i'd be happy to discuss anything you like.  

Really enjoying talking to all you guys. Theres some really cool people here. Thankyou all for making me feel so welcome.

Now back on topic is there anyone willing to take up my challenge? anyone at all? If not then so be it but at least give as much help as you can in experiencing this for myself and finding my own proof.

peace

xxx

[CFTraveler]

Err.... what's a pooter? 

[Ten]

Haha sorry, compooter. computer. was trying to be crazy and cool. 

[CFTraveler]

Ah.  Ok.
Some people I know call them com-poopers.
But that's another post.

[lee46]

Then I astral project to your location and raise my energy level near you. You'll feel a heavy tingling feeling on whichever primary energy center / body part I target.

Kurt, does doing this help the other person improve for AP? like, does it increase the other person's energy?

[kurtykurt42]

Not really, the individual just feels the energy that I am generating. I have done this with several people and they can't believe it. I made one guys arm fall asleep for over an hour! 

[lee46]

sounds like fun! hahahaha that must be something very amusing to watch lol!

Not really, the individual just feels the energy that I am generating.

that's what I thought, I mean, one must be able to raise energy by oneself to succeed, otherwise there would be a lot of people being able to do it just by the help of others.