Hello and...

[Telos]

It is an advantage politically for war protests to feed more insurgents into the troubled area. The conflict is prolonged because of the collective cry against war. If the nations(collectively) and people(individually) would hush their opinions for a short while, the insurgency will either stop or at least have to change it's course of action.

Edit: Sorry about my American generalizations of the words "coast guard" and "current disadvantaged political party" and so on... I know those words may apply to other countries as well. ;)

Let me see if I follow your line of thinking by using Iraq as an example. The current disadvantaged political party (Democrats) can gain a political advantage by encouraging more insurgents to fight in Iraq? And the current insurgency would diminish if there were no more protests?

Are there any historical examples to corroborate this? Obviously, the ruling party looks like a fool when it loses a war or makes a mess of things, but I'm skeptical that anti-war protests have as much of an impact on insurgency, as you suggest. Is there any evidence?

Wisp, as a personal question, do you feel that military personnel are at fault for choosing their line of work? George Carlin has that reasoning, saying, "I blame the soldiers on the both sides. They're the ones who show up. There wouldn't be a war if nobody showed up." He does have a point. (And he was, after all, in the Air Force for a short while).

[Telos]

Anyway, it's more constructive than dreaming to become a pensioner, as other kids do!!!

Ha! You have a point, there. I never thought of it that way.

[wisp]

Let me see if I follow your line of thinking by using Iraq as an example. The current disadvantaged political party (Democrats) can gain a political advantage by encouraging more insurgents to fight in Iraq? And the current insurgency would diminish if there were no more protests?

Sorry but this wasn't what I was saying at all, but if the shoe fits the (Democrats).  

Actually I was talking from the perspective of the physical enemy.How the enemy puts it's cause at an advantage politically? War protests helps the physical enemy's cause.Spiritual assist comes from intentional and unintentional sources.

Oh my no. Military personnel are not at fault for choosing their line of work. It appears more necessary than a problem. Just as there are many things necessary until something better replaces it. In the case of the present war, the thugs running the Iraq terrorist movement are far from being an example of something to replace military intervention. Using the military to gain control of out of control criminals is necessary.

I enjoyed reading the link you placed called Economics and Spirituality. I missed seeing it there. Why don't you finish up the last leg of your Economics Ed.? The doors of opportunity are endless if you do. Why come this far and letting it go?

I want to comment in that thread when I get a chance.

[GorillaBait]

Telos, good luck.  From reading your posts, I admire you.  Stay safe.

[Telos]

Why don't you finish up the last leg of your Economics Ed.? The doors of opportunity are endless if you do. Why come this far and letting it go?

Shouldn't the doors of opportunity be endless now? For everyone? If not, then all this talk about spirituality is nonsense.

I'm very disturbed at how society worships degrees and doctorates like false idols. Recognition of merit shouldn't be institutionalized. Accomplishments are best when they are self-evident.

Do you think maybe I'm being childish?

[wisp]

True enough,Telos. But I equate that with choosing to go down with a ship with people you have no responsibility for. Your not only not the crew, but hardly the captain either. This may sound harsh but if you find this to be so yourself someday, your in for some serious disappointment. I have three sisters. They all followed in my footsteps. Why? Because I always had/have money. Two of them had ideals like yours, they saved themselves.

People choose what they do whether their aware on a conscious level or not. Many more are aware than not, I might add.

True too, I dislike the labels and adoration which comes from an honest and well earned accomplishment. But, where would civilization be if everyone stayed behind?

More can be accomplished within the walls of the establishment than from the outside. And even though you have no interest in the subject, there are other open avenues to areas you have yet to discover,and with your ticket in hand, your ready. Your obviously very intelligent, why not make yourself available? Hmmm makes me think of the Economy and Spirituality thread.

You never know what's around the corner. You must have a good reason for taking a break. It has to be a better one than being a martyr. Sorry for my bluntness.

Nothing wrong with making a good buck with that degree, money=energy!  You strike me as someone who can make it count (not required and no obligation). And if not, at least you'll have more options while you make a decent buck.

[Telos]

You're right, wisp, as per usual.

Sorry for my bluntness.

No, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Or, pure honesty. You're definitely helping me rethink this.

It's not so much that merit is institutionalized into the economic resource of a college degree. It's more that studying economics, or any field of collegiate study, doesn't appear to be much of an accomplishment. The only real accomplishment is being able to suffer through the boredom.

Last summer, I desperately wanted to get college over with, so I enrolled in 21 credits over the objections of the college vice president, who said it wasn't realistic. I completed them all with a B average. I'm told that I'm the only student in the history of the college to attempt that many credits in so little time. My parents think it was "Herculean," my advisor said I pulled off something "amazing." But my friends knew better. They know that such a feat is possible, but at the risk of becoming a complete robot, instead of a temporary one. And that's exactly how I felt - like a mindless robot. The only reason I didn't get an A was because I chopped off lessons that were the least meaningful (ironically, this included not only economics and finance, but also philosophy and theology), not to devote time to other studies, but clean my head of further robotic garbage.

I'm scared that when I look back on my degree, I won't think of it as an accomplishment, but rather a certification that I've been trained as a mind slave the market. And that the jobs available to me will not because of my real merits, but because I'm docile enough to be "managed."

My reasoning for joining the Coast Guard is that, if I'm going to be a mind slave, why not do it for something meaningful? Something that is supposed to be honorable, adventurous, and rewarding to the soul?

My parents keep telling me that I have to finish college because I have to "pay my dues to society," in the way that I must submit to its institutions that recognize merit before going off to do whatever it is that I would do - no matter what it is. But it really seems to me that going to college is a sign of disingenuousness, or a disbelief in spirituality - because spirituality is supposed to open doors to happiness regardless of your qualifications.

Maybe all this talk of spirituality is really a message that one must subdue themselves to the market... which includes, after all, all of humanity?

Thank you so much for engaging me in this discussion, wisp. I have the feeling that I will endlessly appreciate it.

[Nostic]

You're right, wisp, as per usual.

Sorry for my bluntness.

No, that's exactly what I'm looking for! Or, pure honesty. You're definitely helping me rethink this.

It's not so much that merit is institutionalized into the economic resource of a college degree. It's more that studying economics, or any field of collegiate study, doesn't appear to be much of an accomplishment. The only real accomplishment is being able to suffer through the boredom.

Last summer, I desperately wanted to get college over with, so I enrolled in 21 credits over the objections of the college vice president, who said it wasn't realistic. I completed them all with a B average. I'm told that I'm the only student in the history of the college to attempt that many credits in so little time. My parents think it was "Herculean," my advisor said I pulled off something "amazing." But my friends knew better. They know that such a feat is possible, but at the risk of becoming a complete robot, instead of a temporary one. And that's exactly how I felt - like a mindless robot. The only reason I didn't get an A was because I chopped off lessons that were the least meaningful (ironically, this included not only economics and finance, but also philosophy and theology), not to devote time to other studies, but clean my head of further robotic garbage.

I'm scared that when I look back on my degree, I won't think of it as an accomplishment, but rather a certification that I've been trained as a mind slave the market. And that the jobs available to me will not because of my real merits, but because I'm docile enough to be "managed."

My reasoning for joining the Coast Guard is that, if I'm going to be a mind slave, why not do it for something meaningful? Something that is supposed to be honorable, adventurous, and rewarding to the soul?

My parents keep telling me that I have to finish college because I have to "pay my dues to society," in the way that I must submit to its institutions that recognize merit before going off to do whatever it is that I would do - no matter what it is. But it really seems to me that going to college is a sign of disingenuousness, or a disbelief in spirituality - because spirituality is supposed to open doors to happiness regardless of your qualifications.

Maybe all this talk of spirituality is really a message that one must subdue themselves to the market... which includes, after all, all of humanity?

Thank you so much for engaging me in this discussion, wisp. I have the feeling that I will endlessly appreciate it.

You seem to have a great distaste for school Telos. In that, we have something in common.
Growing-up, school was such a torture for me. All of the endless, dull, lifeless, useless information they teach you... I don't know how I made it through so many years.
When you talk about being a robot... "robot" is the perfect word to describe it. There is nothing dynamic or penetrating about any of what is taught. It's all surface information... mostly meaningless trivia... stuff that flies out of your head soon after you no longer need it- that is, "need it" in order to pass some test or whatever.

One of the things that you must consider is that, you know, as time goes by, a college degree becomes more and more insignificant. As more people get them, it's no longer something special. Then you have to ask yourself, exactly how much schooling do I need before it's actually something noteworthy? Of course, all the while, you're working your tail off for something you don't even want; something that you're only doing because it's what's expected, or because... it's just what people do. You have to think, was school was invented for mindless drones? for sheep? If you have a dynamic, imaginative, inquiring mind, school will probably be insufferable.

You know, if you want to really set yourself apart from the standard or the typical... if you can imagine far greater things than what the "normal" human being thinks of as significant... if you want to be fully alive in this truly dead world, first you must greatly suffer. I don't really want to tell you what you should do or what path you should take, because with your mind, I'm sure it's just a matter of time before you figure it out for yourself. And when I say, you need to suffer, it has little to do with being a martyr. It's just that you are going against a monumental wave of consciousness in order to be who you are truly meant to be. A daunting task to be sure. But a task that anyone who seeks true freedom must undertake. It's God's test... a fiery baptism if you will. To achieve Him, you must give it all up- all of the "standards", all of the "expecteds", all of "should do's" and "better do's". And traveling such a path will certainly bring great suffering. But the award is waiting; the award of being God's representative on earth. What could be greater?

Recently, I've imagined that sometime in the future, I'd like to start a school (of sorts) of my own. I can't imagine that it'd happen anytime soon, but I'm thinking... why was I so greatly and negatively effected by school? Maybe it was as a motivation for me to actually DO something about it, even if it's on a small scale.
I can see myself, in the distant future, creating something like an orphanage/school/ashram. In many ways, I've felt like an orphan myself in this life, so on a certain level, I can relate to them.

[sweetbliss]

Hi!

Telos, you don't have any duties to pay to any society! Either, you don't need to enroll into anything. The two look for me a bit the same. The duties to yourself is what you need to pay, and those to God, and these two are also the same, aren't they?

You have actually answered your own questions in your last post. If you have been given such a good mind, why doubt it and not use it? Maybe you have tired yourself too much, but just take it easy for the next year and learn in a normal rhythm with the rest of your mates and allow yourself to spend more time for spiritual things, too. If something like other people's intuition could help you, I have a strong feeling that you should stay there and finish what you have started and that's all. Even without a brake to rest, your mind seem to be quite in a good shape, just without too much "Herculean" work. This will bring you much more freedom than the other choice, and much more time to spend for spirituality.  Just a feeling...
Anyway, it does not sound even worse to start from the beginning another task? At least this one is partly finished. For me it sounds like a bit of fantasy to go to military in order not to become a robot. Your ideals are your ideals, and they may stand and remain within you, in any place you might go to, but military (as a real institution, not as an ideal concept) has very much to do with degrees and a strict hierarchy, which is not always the hierarchy of heaven...   What do you think about it? Me, I'm working in a place where there are many people who have worked in military service, and I must tell that  for the time being I'm looking for a solution to get out of there, because their permanent filthy talks and their material attention are quite a strong pressure for me. And I feel that staying to much with them might affect my own attention and definitely my decision is that I will not become like them! I remained there because I felt I should stay for a while, that both me and them have something to learn , but they are learning kind of too slowly . This is my example!

I'm not saying that military is wrong, just that it might not be good for you now!
Economics are not more contradictory to spirituality that any other field. If you think for instance at what music or other arts should be, that they should offer a path for spiritual healing, and what they have become... Is it then worth to become an artist nowadays? But still, there are people, who can bring a much subtle perception of creativity and enjoyment, because within themselves they have created this spiritual dimension or they have allowed it to be created, they can bare innocence and freedom inside and let them spread. Art can awaken the desire to enlightenment or can spoil mind and ideals. It is the individual choice to an artist to get more closer to one side or to the other. It's up to one's own innocence and desire. In economics it is the same. If you want your mind to serve others, you are able to get over limitations and fake ideas. You are still young, you don't need to understand the spiritual or philosophic meaning of economics in the next months   , but you can realize this in a few years.
Money cannot spoil you, if you want to understand how to bring wellbeing to people.

Could this be also an influence of catholic thinking, that in order to serve others one should renounce things, one should have a different type of life? It may sound like a cliche, but it not so far from reality... In the Christian orthodox church (in Eastern Europe) priests can become monks or can marry, it is a matter of choice, and I wouldn't say that orthodox priests are worse then catholics, because of this. It's not only a church policy, it influences the life perspective. Or think at the sufi saints (the muslim mystics), they were not even living as priests, had their own businesses, were living ordinary lives, and still, many of them were enlightened persons. Maybe they still are, I don't know. (By no means I want to say that any religion or cult might be better than other, I just consider that they are parts of one truth, and each of them posses the capacity to show us freedom, but none of them really takes advantage of this capacity. I've been raised as a communist child, so I can tell that living with no spiritual belief will ensure a miserable life, but also I have very close catholic friends, and I know that their life was not easy, either. Anyway, the missionaries I mentioned in one of my previous posts were protestant .)
You just take advantage of what you have and don't let the rest influence you! You have enough resources within yourself, just try to understand them, those philosophies cannot save you from boredom and lack of freedom, but your self can.

Wow, now I feel like writing a lot of things, but it will become too long.    

I hope you'll take the good decision!

[sweetbliss]

Nostic, I was also dreaming about founding such a school, in which kids could have real food for the soul, not only talking and too much mechanical learning. And were students can also learn meditation...and how to know themselves and how to face reality and what reality actually is. Can this be tought?... It should be different..., I mean our generations have to find this solution, because there have always been spiritually oriented schools, and still the satisfaction is not entirely there. But diplomas are necessary, if one wants to make a change for himself or for others, he or she has to go though it.    

[sweetbliss]

Related to the issue of leading a life of service, I found today a message on another forum, which might throw some light on it:

http://lightworker.com/messageboards/viewtopic.php?t=4452

It is the third post, by Katy. The other comments are not so relevant...

Especially I liked that part (Uh, I don't know how to use this 'Quote' tool!):

"The 'service' that is being called forth from those whose desire is to assist the earth, comes from the place or the vibration that recognizes 'service' as being a 'vibration' rather than an action. So if you were told, if you knew that the greatest service you could 'perform' in this lifetime is one that is the presentation of a vibration (which it is) you would/might just get moving in the direction of holding that vibration wouldn't you? Your mind might argue but your heart would speak the truth to you. The irony is that when you 'reach' that vibration the world of service opens to you through things, and places, people and opportunities that thrill you. The vibration that we speak of is felt as 'joy'."

[Telos]

Thank you all very much for your thoughts and wishes.

I've just registered as a part-time student back at my business college. No military, no vagrancy, no spiritual vows, no service, and no heroic starts from nothing. Just school, and the shackles that come with it. I'll be here for at least another year-and-a-half. Thanks again.

[wisp]

Telos,
Part-Time is a wonderful choice. I should have thought of that! Especially since it is what I do with work, and... the opposite of a marathon (done that too).

Someone on the board has something clever written in their signature, it says something like, "work smarter, not harder "...I believe in this.

Boredom? It doesn't happen when your in the right place at the right time, imo.

[sweetbliss]

Oh, I'm so happy for you!  
I'm sure you'll make a nice... no, carrier is not the word! It should be called in another way... ...?

And shackles...?    Maybe that's what you'll do, turn economic shackles into freedom.

 

Wish you all the luck you need!

[Frank]

Telos:

Vagrancy is not all that bad. I lived as a vagrant for 6 weeks when I was fifteen. Decided to leave home and start out on my own, lol. Okay, it was in the summer which helped.

I made a makeshift tent and I got myself a part-time job washing dishes at a local hotel which meant I could discretely help myself to food. I got picked up eventually by the police as my parents contacted them. Was still classed as a minor due to my age, so the police had a duty to find me I suppose.

It depends how much you like your own company and being in nature. I made friends with a stray dog who I would read to at night, and there was a squirrel that would sleep in my shoe. Compared to the living hell that was home it was bliss. I often go back to that same place by the river where I made my tent, and just sit for hours thinking back to the time. I stay at the same hotel in Grasmere where I had the part-time job, as it's all a conservation area it's very much the same as it was.

Yours,
Frank