Astral projection and the body of light in magical practice

[sahgwa]

HI all
I have been training trying and practising to astral project for years now.
I have been able to get half out in one case and then fully out only once but i was blind and couldnt move then i was back in.
My main question and thing I'd like to discuss is the idea of astral projection otherwise known as the body of light, or assuming god form in magical practice. Mainly western ceremonial magic and occultism.
The background to my question is, the idea of attention and visualisation/imagination is of couse very key to atsral projection, but when one reads about people astral journeying in magical records they often sound like mere imaginings. Of course it is necessary to imagine before your project to get the setting right and build up the proper senses and setting, but is there truly a difference between astral projecting and creative visualisation/imaging? Or is one merely imagining in their minds eye the whole time?
From my personal experience it feels as if i am truly leaving my body, albeit i was unable to go anywhere or see or be out for more than a few seconds.  But in reading material such as the abuldiz working with aleister crowley and his seer/scarlet woman mary d'este where she describes seeing an old wizard, in a forest, and under a palm tree etc, and receiving messages through the 'excitation of drink and sex' i am at a loss to see if this happened on the astral, as magic is supposed to affect this to work, how one could prove it is different from imaginings. similarly in the book magic in theory and practice crowley says of one method of invocation: "The first method concerns the so-called astral body.  The Magician should practise the formation of this body as recommended in Liber O, and learn to rise on the planes according to the instruction given in the same book, though limiting his "rising" to the particular symbol whose God he wishes to invoke. "  when you read the instructions in liber o it says "Let him imagine his own figure as enveloping his physical body, or standing near to and in front of him. 3. let him then transfer the seat of his consciousness to that imagined figure, so that it may seem to him that he is seeing with its eyes, and hearing with its ears. This will usually be the great difficulty of the operation. "
now in hindsight this sounds very similar to the monroe techniques and many others, so maybe it is real astral projection.but when one reads many magical records the people are not lying or relaxing but sitting or standing in 'god forms/poses' and thus i fail to see how they could be projecting, and their records sound similar to imaginings.

so is magical projection the same? any ideas or comments would be very enlightening.

[CFTraveler]

This reply is my opinion, since I do not practice magick (but have read  Bardon's Intro to Hermetics and practiced some of it).
There are various forms of projection, and each style is related to the 'plane/FoC/locale', etc. that one is attempting to go to.  In many of the theosophical literature, the usual descriptions sound like Astral Projection (which could correspond to OBE to the RTZ and shift to the astral, or direct phasing into the astral), and sometimes the descriptions sound like what are known as 'Mystic Projection' to the astral realms, which are more like visualizations and guided meditations/projections into the astral realms.  They feel different, and are perceived differently.  Aunt Clair of the RoE often describes group Mystic Projections that sound a lot like the Magickal techniques the Golden Dawn adepts used. 
The Body of Light technique (something I wouldn't do unless I felt I had to) are a lot like what Bardon (IIRC) describes in 'Mental Wandering', which may or may not be another form of Astral Projecting. (not etheric projecting).
Your experiences -The experience of leaving the body, feeling the tug and being pulled back, etc.- are typical of a Real Time Zone projection, aka etheric projection, and you usually end up in the energetic equivalent of your room, or the 'real world'.  An astral locale is more prone to being dreamlike, and usually is formed by the collective unconscious- that may be where you see greek temples, leprechauns and unicorns- where the Akashic Records are supposed to be, where dreamstate/projection lessons are taught.  Much more symbolic and archetypal.
Hope this helped.

[Greytraveller]

Hi saghwa

Aleister Crowley was undoubtedly able to induce OBEs. That being said it is debatable just how 'adept' Crowley was at inducing OBEs. I have read a limited number of works by Crowley ("Magick Without Tears" being the most notable). My best guess about Crowley is that he could occasionally induce an OBE now and then but he could not induce one every night on command. Crowley's focus and energy was on ceremonial and sex magick and he probably considered astral projection as only a secondary tool for working magick.
So I do not put much importance in what Crowley wrote about astral projection.
What is very intriguing, however, is the idea that Crowley found out that magick works much better on the astral/ethereal planes than it does on the physical plane. And that makes perfect sense because the astral/ethereal planes are much more easily manipulated by thoughts, intentions and higher energies (magick) than the three dimensional physical plane is.
My theory is that Crowley made a very significant discovery about magick while out of body (possibly about summoning a deity or assuming a god-form). He did allude to this and wrote that the astral plane is an exceedingly effective place to invoke and evoke deities.
As to the type of OBE that Crowley experienced, he probably had both the mental projection (phasing) type of OBE and also the more traditional full blown separation of the astral/ethereal body leaving the physical body.

Regards 
Grey

[Teleute28]

Hi everyone,  In reply about Crowley much of his magickal practice was based around ceremonial magick i.e. Golden Dawn/Abramelin The Mage and Egyptian mysticism.  He may have consider such a thing has astral projection has a minor tool/spiritual ability when it came to magickal practice's.  But for some it seems that it can be even more useful with ritual and/or energy working's then just "going though the motion's" of working a material type of ritual.  One of the most interesting concept's about Crowley practice's in the occult is termed "Action at a distance" which of course is the use of projecting/focusing one's own energy to cause change to occur to things going on in your own life or even people around you.


Teleute28 

[Greytraveller]

Hi Teleute
Do you know if Crowley wrote about his experiences while out of body. The material that I read that Crowley wrote about his own OBEs is only vague and did not go into detail about any of his OBEs. The only particular bit that I remember was that Crowley wrote it was important to determine what type of astral beings one encounters while out of body. This idea is confusing and hard to describe but Crowley apparently thought that most astral beings have some sort of secret connection with divine energy. So when Crowley met an astral creature he always asked that creature many different questions to try to determine exactly what type of creature it was.
Maybe Crowley hoped to use or manipulate an astral creature's special energy for Crowley's own use during ceremonial magick.

Regards 
Grey

[personalreality]

Remember that magickal practice is often heavy in tradition.  A lot of the poses and positions and words and such that we can access as common people are at the most watered down versions of what was truly practiced.  Also, a lot of that stuff is no different from religious dogma.  Much of the ritualistic side of magickal practice (in a group) had a purpose as a part of that particular method, however, taken out of context of that particular school or doctrine it can be a bit silly.  Many of the things that are taught as necessary are only necessary within the framework or that school of thought because it was a part of the overall ritual of liberation and mastery. 

As for Crowley, firstly, he was brilliant beyond most people and he didn't always realize that.  Secondly, he also had a great sense of humor.....heed that factoid. 

[Selea]

...when you read the instructions in liber o it says "Let him imagine his own figure as enveloping his physical body, or standing near to and in front of him. 3. let him then transfer the seat of his consciousness to that imagined figure, so that it may seem to him that he is seeing with its eyes, and hearing with its ears. This will usually be the great difficulty of the operation. "
now in hindsight this sounds very similar to the monroe techniques and many others, so maybe it is real astral projection.but when one reads many magical records the people are not lying or relaxing but sitting or standing in 'god forms/poses' and thus i fail to see how they could be projecting, and their records sound similar to imaginings.

so is magical projection the same? any ideas or comments would be very enlightening.

Sorry if I'm a bit late on replying this, I've seen it only now.

In the records you talk of the magicians are using what is called "eroto-comatose lucidity". It is a state of trance brought upon sexual esaustathion. Btw, there's absolutely no need to be lying or sitting to transfer the consciousness on the body of light. With continued experience you can switch focus to it anytime, relaxation comes automatically, the physical body (or better the subconscious) learn to do it automatically. What Crowley doesn't explain in his Liber O and elsewhere is however how the body of light is formed. He explained it orally to students. So you miss a part of the picture and it is the motive why you cannot understand why this can work.

Anway with the Body of Light you can have both an "etehric" or "astral projection", it depends on what plane you transfer the body. Crowley wasn't interested in the "eterich" plane because there's nothing really interesting going on there, so he focused primarly on the astral plane, above all on meeting what he called "other" beings with a true intelligence of their own.

Best regards,
Selea.