OBE compared to NDE

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Windwalker.

When people experience NDEs it seems as if they experience the physical as if remote viewing themselves ie, "I heard what the Drs. said to each other and them pronouncing me dead" etc. which i believe is refered to as the real time zone. None of my OBEs have occured it the rtz- although many are very similar, i clearly realize the experience is within me vs. me floating out of my body in the physical. Even Monroe spoke about "pinching" a woman friend of his to prove he was OBEing in the rtz-but again, my experiences are clearly not the rtz. . Although most of Monroes experiences were clearly not in the rtz. So I am curious if NDEs actually occur in the rtz or if they simply appear to because of the similarities just as OBEs do? At times i have wondered if obes and ndes were one in the same given many people label ndes as actually happening in the rtz and label obes as "only lucid dreaming" and not the same as an nde in the rtz. Im curious if there is literature on people who have experienced an nde and also experienced obes for their opinions. I only ask this because i spoke with a person who said NDE'ers actually float out of their body ala a ghost and OBEers are simply having lucid dreams. I couldnt guide this person to any literature of people who have experienced both who state they are one in the same.

Volgerle

NDEs contain OBEs.

They were by people who were (near) dead.

OBErs are not dying but projecting. It's like the connection is still intact you just send out a 'drone' (your astral body). If you die your astral body leaves with your consciousness and you carry on elsewhere because there is no connection to your disfunctional body.

I've read a lot of literature and accounts (also online). I think both can have all more or less the same ranges of experiences, including meeting dead people (relatives), seeing yourself out-of-body, meeting "God" (mystic, unity experience)., tunnel flights to a light, etc.

Some aspects, such as an instant short life review are more typical of NDEs.

Windwalker.

I agree with all you wrote. My point was this: NDEers seem to actually experience the rtz whereas OBEers seem to access the dream state ie lucid dreams. So how can we know they are one in the same?

Nameless

I have experienced both. The NDE I experienced in 2006 was not at all what I would have thought it would be. My awareness was wide open but at the same time very focused on ME (and not just my physical self). That I think was the biggest difference for me. In my OBEs and AP my focus is generally spread much wider. I guess dying needed a more pin-point effort.

Honestly I still don't see much difference other than what I stated above. My NDE had elements of conscious phasing, projection and remote viewing. Even now it's difficult to describe. Hope that helps.

Fresco

With an NDE people cross over to the next astral dimension, with an OBE people tend to stay on the earth plane
(at least thats the way I understand it)

Volgerle

Quote from: Windwalker. on September 10, 2018, 23:56:18
I agree with all you wrote. My point was this: NDEers seem to actually experience the rtz whereas OBEers seem to access the dream state ie lucid dreams. So how can we know they are one in the same?
OBErs also visit the RTZ, definitely. Many have seen their bodies in bed, me included. It was the physical and not an astral 'vision' or copy or whatever. There's also many validations brought back from the physical that exist (see my signature link).

Windwalker.

Quote from: Volgerle on September 11, 2018, 22:19:03
OBErs also visit the RTZ, definitely. Many have seen their bodies in bed, me included. It was the physical and not an astral 'vision' or copy or whatever. There's also many validations brought back from the physical that exist (see my signature link).

And this is my point exactly. NDEers seem to actually still be observing what is going on in the REAL physical world, ie as if a ghost would. OBEs never observe what is going on in the real physical world, only a replica. That denotes a huge difference. So how can we be sure that NDEs and OBES are experiencing the same phenomenon? It can easily be said that an obe has simply accessed the dream construct. You cant say the same thing for an NDE because 1. They are observing the real physical world and 2. They are dead. UNLESS.....NDEers only THINK they are observing the "real" physical world but in truth they are only seeing the replica that we observe during obes. Im not convinced they are the same phenomenon.

Volgerle

Quote from: Windwalker. on September 13, 2018, 19:40:44
And this is my point exactly. NDEers seem to actually still be observing what is going on in the REAL physical world, ie as if a ghost would. OBEs never observe what is going on in the real physical world, only a replica. That denotes a huge difference. So how can we be sure that NDEs and OBES are experiencing the same phenomenon? It can easily be said that an obe has simply accessed the dream construct. You cant say the same thing for an NDE because 1. They are observing the real physical world and 2. They are dead. UNLESS.....NDEers only THINK they are observing the "real" physical world but in truth they are only seeing the replica that we observe during obes. Im not convinced they are the same phenomenon.

OBErs do also a lot of validations, like the NDErs (however, most are done by the Remote Viewers actually) from the physical.

Have you seen my link? Please click on it. I stopped collecting examples years ago or it would be even double as long. I never even got started to do the NDEr and RVer validations. Too much.

I get your point somehow but I'm afraid it cannot be answered to your satisfaction.

We do not know the nature / physics of reality and planes exactly, how could we. So we can never really say how much the physical and 'etheric' or astral version of the physical are one of the same thing. Not in NDE and not in OBE. How can we? So your quest can never be answered satisfactorily.

What we know as experiencers is though that both levels / planes, are 'real' because you can get validations from the astral/etheric level.

I think it is like a filtering process, the physical filters into the astral and vice versa. But even NDErs could experience (and 'be') on an astral level of the physical. Note: That does NOT make it NOT real.  :lol:

How can we be sure an NDEer or a 'ghost' is not in the physical or astral entirely either? Maybe they also exist already in the closely linked etheric/astral plane (version of the RTZ). I believe we as multidimensional being exist simultaneously on all levels, that is why the I like Monroes (Kepple's) focus based view so much. So the whole RTZ business is certainly a bit fuzzy. There is constant interaction. Imagine it like thin veils laid on top of each other. And you can fly easily and switch betwen them all the time.

Some however are skilled RTZ (however you understand it) projectors. I remember the old book by Sylvan Muldoon, he was a very skilled RTZ projector and even stated he never was on an astral plane but only ever projected to the physical (and did validations). He also had etheric projections where he knocked down objects or produced knocking on the wall. Have you read the book? It was OBEs and no, he was not 'dead'.  :wink:


baro-san

Quote from: Windwalker. on September 10, 2018, 22:45:22
When people experience NDEs it seems as if they experience the physical as if remote viewing themselves ie, "I heard what the Drs. said to each other and them pronouncing me dead" etc. which i believe is refered to as the real time zone. None of my OBEs have occured it the rtz- although many are very similar, i clearly realize the experience is within me vs. me floating out of my body in the physical. Even Monroe spoke about "pinching" a woman friend of his to prove he was OBEing in the rtz-but again, my experiences are clearly not the rtz. . Although most of Monroes experiences were clearly not in the rtz. So I am curious if NDEs actually occur in the rtz or if they simply appear to because of the similarities just as OBEs do? At times i have wondered if obes and ndes were one in the same given many people label ndes as actually happening in the rtz and label obes as "only lucid dreaming" and not the same as an nde in the rtz. Im curious if there is literature on people who have experienced an nde and also experienced obes for their opinions. I only ask this because i spoke with a person who said NDE'ers actually float out of their body ala a ghost and OBEers are simply having lucid dreams. I couldnt guide this person to any literature of people who have experienced both who state they are one in the same.

OBE, NDE, and other altered states of consciousness are similar phenomena. They have different names because they have some particularities, but their commonalities are more important than their differences. Both OBEs and NDEs, as they are reported, can happen in rtz, or on another plane. The distinction isn't that important because it is a matter of focusing on a range or another of the continuous consciousness dimension. The LD / OBE distinction isn't important for the same reason.

All starts with what "mind" is, and where it is.
---
"Read not to contradict and confute, nor to believe and take for granted, but to weigh and consider."
- Sir Francis Bacon

Xanth

Remember, we call it a "NEAR DEATH" Experience... you're not dead. 
You're still very much alive.  Just because your heart stops beating, doesn't mean you're dead.

We, as humans, still are very much mystified over what "death" is and when it's a COMPLETE event in which you can no longer "come back".
So with that said, your physical senses should still be fully activated. 

I view a NDE as no different from any other kind of projection. 

Volgerle

Another angle to view it from:

Distinguish between BEING on a plane and PERCEIVING a plane.

Neither APers/OBErs nor NDE-OBErs are on the physical plane.

Did the doctors and nurses see the NDEr when he hovered above the surgery table? No. So he WAS not on their level/plane. But he PERCEIVED it.

Only manifestated entities/souls such as GHOSTS are on the same plane or they are PERCEIVED by the physical being via astral sight (and thus are still on another plane/level).

Call it etheric or astral or mental plane or whatever. The mind/soul/consciousness is already on another plane, probably even while you are thinking your 'thoughts' and are aware you are not on this 3D-plane with your consciusness alone (the brain activity reflects it yes, but they are not the thoughtforms/awareness themselves).

Makes sense?  8-)