Can anybody help me with proof?

[Frank]

I suspect many people are caught in this "catch 22" situation. Those in your position would believe it, if only they could perceive it. Problem is, non-physical reality works the other way around: in that your ability to perceive is directly proportional to your willingness to believe.

On the Physical, most of us upon hearing something that sounded a bit far-fetched would say something like, "Okay, I'll believe it when I see it." This is because, basically, within the Physical realm, seeing is believing. However, people who apply this same logic when attempting to deal with non-physical realms will very soon run into difficulty.

I think it's not your mind struggling to grasp the concept. Your mind will be very familiar with non-physical realms as that is where it normally "lives". It's the ego aspect of your personality that is causing you to be opinionated and analytical about the whole process. Such skills can come in mighty handy when dealing with Physical-realm matters. But can act as a big spoke in the works when approaching topics to do with the non-physical.

Initially, the symptoms you get which indicate your progress are very subtle. Which means they are ever so easily explained away. This tends to push you that much further away from your end-goal each time.

It sounds, from what you say, your ego has set out all the terms and conditions in advance and concluded that this Physical reality is the only reality in existence. Now, in its quest to finally prove it to you, once and for all, it has set-up a virtually impossible to perform "test". A test which, on the surface, would sound very straightforward and logical to most normal people. However, from the point of view of someone with experience of non-physical reality, as I say, it would be next to impossible to perform.

About your living in a sterile world, and so forth: I always say people who think once you die that's it, are in for a mighty big surprise.

Yours,
Frank

[TruthSeeker]

I did not quite get the reason for this being impossible, as I have indeed heard of such experiments before. As an example, the gnostic movement has done this kind of research before, and they came out positive. This experiment was made like this: Students were in a room, and a wall/cover was placed there as well. Behind this wall/cover a thing they were to read(do not remember what they were supposed to find). Students projected there and came back with positive results, exact results. The same thing happened when they put this note in the next room, adn the students projected there. What makes this a fraud?
If you would care to explain a bit further I would be MOST thankful.

Best regards,
TruthSeeker

"The journey of a thousand miles must begin with a single step."- Lao Tzu

[Daniel]

I believe Frank just explained partly the not rare (emotional) prejudice of the supposedly most rational people - the scientific community - towards multidimensional phenomena.  Human nature (ego) has a tendency of avoiding change and the progression related to it. The well know behaviour of the church men when they refused to look through Galileous telescope is common even today - and not least on a personal level.
However, in my view the fortunate paradox in this, is that once a scientific - minded person resolves for himself this (false) contradiction between multidimensionality and rationality, he/she will soon make greater progression than those who accepted OBE as an real phenomena immediately after their first experience.

Am I alone in this perception?

Daniel

[Grendel]

I just don't see why it would be impossible.  I mean, my perceptions should have no impact on somebody else's abilities in the OBE world, should they?  I read all the time about tests people do with themselves where they leave a card out, then try and read it when they are OB.  What would make it so much more difficult to read a card that somebody else left out instead?  Is it the fact that you need to know exactly where it is?  What is it?  (I'm not doubting you here, I'm just honestly wanting to learn more about this, and the reasonings behind it).

[goingslow]

quote:Originally posted by TruthSeeker

I did not quite get the reason for this being impossible, as I have indeed heard of such experiments before. As an example, the gnostic movement has done this kind of research before, and they came out positive. This experiment was made like this: Students were in a room, and a wall/cover was placed there as well. Behind this wall/cover a thing they were to read(do not remember what they were supposed to find). Students projected there and came back with positive results, exact results. The same thing happened when they put this note in the next room, adn the students projected there. What makes this a fraud?

To point out an obvious difference.. grendel lives where and in that example you're talking about the next room?

here are my few thoughts on the matter which probably no one cares to read.. anyway.

1.) to get to a location like Grendals house would require that you know where his house is.  Not only in such and such country but how to get there.  By the time you get there due to the amount of time you have in the RTZ before reality fluctuations start kicking in it would be very difficult to read a card.  Plus how would you travel there.  People say you can transport to this or that location by thinking about it but thats more in the astral.  The chances of it being a real Real time zone type of place are slim.    

It amazes me someone's talking about the next room vs a person in another state or country as if its the same thing

2) On my next projection the last thing ill be interested in doing is projecting to Grendel's house.  No big offense to you Grendel but why would anyone here have to prove it to you?  If i projected every day maybe I'd say sure.. ill go prove this to Grendel so he knows for sure.  I mean after all I owe it to you.

It just strikes me as a little weird to tell people here you'd like for someone to prove it to you.  Go read books on it and if you dont think the people are credible thats fine.  But either way this type of proof will probably not convince you anyway even if someone spend their time in a much worked for projection to help show you its possible.  

A lot of people here have mathematical or scientific minds in the physical.  That doesnt make you different from a lot of the people who study this type of thing.  The whole purpose of science was trying to explain phenomenon that people didnt understand.  The problem is so many people close themselves off to other possibilities.  This isn't a problem of being too "rational and scientific".  Its the same thing the majority of humans face out there.  If its not in their reality they dont believe it.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Grendel

I just don't see why it would be impossible.

Okay, you say:

quote:
For example : If I helped people get a general idea of where I am (Not a street address, I only want to be visited astrally, thank you.), could they go to me, and read one word on a card that I put out?

Let's forget we are dealing with the Astral and all its attendent complications. Let's just deal with the Physical. A realm we are both entirely familiar with.

I live in Surrey, England. That then gives you a general idea of where I am. On my desk in my study are several objects. You will be able to see them from the window. Describe them for me please.

Yours,
Frank

[Parmenion]

Perhaps, Grendal, you would find Robert Monroe's books on OOBE's suited to your scientific mind. While I've not yet read them myself, another authour, Robert Peterson, says he found the approach invaluable to him as his mind also worked in a scientific, analytical manner, and such is the approach taken by Monroe.

Hmm, Monroe, Peterson, Bruce; Maybe I'll change my name to Robert and see if I find success easier []

Take care

Parmenion

[Grendel]

Woah, easy there guys, no need to get uptight about this.

Goingslow Wrote :
>No big offense to you Grendel but why would anyone here have to
prove it to you?

AND

>It just strikes me as a little weird to tell people here you'd like for someone to prove it to you.

Nobody here has to prove anything to me.  I'm not demanding anything at all.  I'm sorry if it came across as such.


Frank Wrote :
>I live in Surrey, England. That then gives you a general idea of where I am. On my desk in my study are several objects. You will be able to see them from the window. Describe them for me please

I wasn't expecting anybody to be able to do anything from the post I had given. After re-reading it, I don't think I ever made that inference either.  Hence the prefix "For Example:"  I was asking if anybody would be interested in helping me out, and was just giving an example of what I thought would be a possiblity.  I was open to any other ideas.  My hope was that there would be somebody here who would respond with something besides a hostile and/or belittling post.


Goingslow Also Wrote :

>But either way this type of proof will probably not convince you anyway...

What on earth is that determination based on? [V]


Apparently you guys thought I was throwing down some kind of gauntlet, challenging everybody to prove their beliefs to me.  Nothing could be further from the truth.  I never issued a challenge, I was only asking questions.  I gave an EXAMPLE of what maybe somebody could try.

Grendel Wrote :
"Is there anybody here who could help me? I'm willing to try everything I can on my end to make this work."

I really fail to see where I miscommunicated my intentions on this.  I'm sorry I upset so many people with a seemingly innocuous posting.
At the risk of angering people even more, I'll try and clarify my point :

On second thought, no I won't.  I gave it my shot to see if somebody would be willing to work with me and/or help me with this, but apparently that was the wrong thing to do.

Goingslow Also Wrote :
>A lot of people here have mathematical or scientific minds in the physical. That doesnt make you different from a lot of the people who study this type of thing.

Did I ever, at any point, say that it made me different?  I never said that you people don't have scientific minds, did I?  I was hoping that maybe somebody who also had the same view of the world that I do might have been able to help me understand.  Maybe somebody who had to overcome the same kind of hurdles that I'm facing.

I'm sorry that this isn't the appropriate forum for asking for help.  My mistake entirely.  I truly hope with all my might that you guys are all right (Actually, I guess this is a lose-lose situation for me.  If you guys are right, then I'm wrong.  If I'm right, and we just blink out when we die, then nobody will ever know).  I wish you all the best of luck in your research.

(PS - I am leaving this forum.  Any responses for me will not reach their intended target, so save your breath.)

[clandestino]

Hi Grendel, I hope you don't decide to give up visiting this forum after reading a couple of responses that might seem unhelpful.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating, so they say. The only way I've been able to convince myself that astral projection is real, is by giving it a go. After a few successes, I know it is real.

Having said that, I'm not convinced that Real Time projection in the physical world is real. That's just my opinion, based on my experiences to date.

I firmly subscribe to a point that Frank made earlier on :
"...your ability to perceive is directly proportional to your willingness to believe."

Rick Stack has a book called "how to OBE in 30 days" (i think that's the title). The majority of the exercises are about changing your belief systems. To be honest with you, I skipped past them because they looked boring, even though he emphasised time and time again that these are extremely important. However, I didn't have much success so I'm gonna go back and do it by the book !

Maybe you could give it a go too ?
cheers

[walkthruwalls]

You don't need to believe in OOBE in order to achieve one. I didn't believe it, but had to when it happened. It pretty much happens exactly when your physical body falls asleep/into trance and your mind stays conscious/regains consciousness. It's easy to say, but a bit harder to induce. This site's free guide got me out of body in 14 days of practice, that's not a lie.
I never tried to verify anything in the "real time zone," since my OOBE's are still short and hard to control, but such an experiment shall be my priority.
Good luck all! :  )

[sweet_celestial_sounds]

Hey Grendel.

I'm willing to try to experiment with you, such as something like Moen does with meeting with people to verify, or practicing together and sharing our experiences. It seems that you've left, so I'll send you a private message.

Take care,

[Tisha]

Hey Frank, do you have a round crystal paperweight (globe?) and/or a small pyramid on your desk?  Is the window to your right?

If not, no matter, I never said (or ever thought) I was any good at this anyway!  

tish

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Tisha

Hey Frank, do you have a round crystal paperweight (globe?) and/or a small pyramid on your desk?  Is the window to your right?

If not, no matter, I never said (or ever thought) I was any good at this anyway!  

tish

Tisha: A round paperweight, no. But I did, for many years, have a crystal-ball on my desk which I gave to my secretary a couple of years ago. The window is to the left, unfortunately. But you are spot-on with the glass pyramid. It is a small glass pyramid about 5 cm high with an engraving of a horse at the centre. My wife bought it for me, and I now have it in place of the crystal ball.

Yours,
Frank

[Tisha]

Kewl!

I also "saw" other little things but I didn't know what they were called so I didn't mention them.  Protractor, pendulum, abacus, what-the-heck?  I know you're an engineer so I figured my mind probably just made them up, so I didn't mention them. I remember when I was a kid always had a protractor, but I never used it, it just lay around.  So now that I'm wondering, do you have old-fashioned engineer "stuff" that no engineer ever uses anymore since now everyone has computer programs? Not necessarily on your desk, but around?

[goingslow]

"But either way this type of proof will probably not convince you anyway...

What on earth is that determination based on? "

- I wasnt actually talking about it wouldnt convince YOU as in it would anyone else but not you.  I personally dont think that type of vague proof really proves it exists to anyone.  I have doubts still on things ive experienced.

The other thing was me saying "it doens't make you different than anyone here".  My point was thinking that way doesn't mean you're at odds with believing in OBE's.  Its experience vs what yhou believe.

I tend to sound rude sometimes and often I am rude.  But in this case what I was trying to convey is its very hard for most here to have OBE's at least in my case it is.  One reason I think you wont get proof is most would rather fly around etc than go prove it to one person.

now a group proof thing might be worth it.  Like a controlled type of experiment where a few are in on it would help more.

I think its a little rash to decide not to post here because some people's posts come off as rude etc.  Most times if a person sticks around to find out what the posters actually meant you'd be surprised.

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Tisha

Kewl!

I also "saw" other little things but I didn't know what they were called so I didn't mention them.  Protractor, pendulum, abacus, what-the-heck?  I know you're an engineer so I figured my mind probably just made them up, so I didn't mention them.

Yes, I've got all kind of marking out tools. You knowing I am into engineering science would naturally colour your thinking. But I'm impressed with the pyramid. Well, not just it being a pyramid but a glass one. And it is not something you could have gleaned from my posts either.

Want to try again? If so there's a desktop computer at the corner of my desk to my left. It's the box that contains the motherboard/hard disk/DVD player and all that gubbins. On top is an object about 100cm high and around 80cm in width. The object has nothing to do with engineering or science, so as to avoid any thought colouration on your part. Any ideas?

Yours,
Frank

[clandestino]

Hi Frank & Tisha !

this might be enough to get Grendel (who started this topic) posting on the forum again !!

regards and good luck,
Mark

[goingslow]

*fingers crossed* Lets just hope its enough.

[Tisha]

Howdy again - - -

OK now, Frank, I've got performance anxiety.  My first flash was that you had something silly and cartoony there, but that just seemed silly and cartoony so forget it - - - I'm not in an OBE state right now anyway.  Soo . . . let me think work on it. Or, anyone else want to try?

I was wondering about the globe/pyramid thing and thought . . . well if I were on the Astral instead of the RTZ . . . and the Astral is in the No Time Zone, it would make perfect sense that I would see your old crystal globe and your new crystal pyramid as sort of the same thing.  In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if I saw everything that ever appeared on your desk at any given time . . . HAH! No wonder your desk seemed messy []

This is just too much fun, so I'm throwing out a similar challenge to anyone who wants to try it.  I live in south central NJ in the U.S.A.  In my bedroom, I have an altar.  It's not a traditional Wiccan or Druid altar (although it has Wiccan aspects); it's very individualized, and there is nothing in my previous posts that would give its contents away.  Anyone care to zoom in on my vibe and describe it?

[Frank]

quote:Originally posted by Tisha

Howdy again - - -

OK now, Frank, I've got performance anxiety.  My first flash was that you had something silly and cartoony there.

Not bad at all. Though silly in terms of the word playful, as opposed to meaning daft. It's one of those wooden russian dolls where you take apart the first, and there is another smaller one inside, and then another ever smaller one inside that, and so on. Each doll has a cartoon-style colour picture of an animal painted on it.

Yours,
Frank

PS

Forgive me for sounding thick, but what's an altar in the context you give?

[Tisha]

If you go to a Catholic Church (or any church, most likely) you will see an altar.  It's been awhile since I've visited a Catholich church but I would expect that, at a minimum, you would see flowers, candles, maybe incense.  If one watches scary satanic movies (I don't) I think one might imagine an altar as the place where sacrifices take place.  

But basically, an altar is a place to focus mental energy, usually in a religious context.   Most magical practicitoners have an altar somewhere in their home.  Candles and incense are usually a given.

regards,

[Tisha]

Oh and about the Russian doll - - - interesting!   My immediate reaction was "Mr. Peanut" but I wasn't going to say that, no way, so I settled with "silly and cartoony," which I was even embarrassed to suggest, lest I get it wrong.  Maybe I was reacting to the shape of the doll.  Maybe I was just making it up.  Who knows!

All I'm getting from this now is . . . despite what my boyfriend insists,I'm not making things up, I DO pull things out of the ether sometimes, I just don't always get things RIGHT!  Which makes sense, because most of the time I'm only half paying attention [:I]  Woo-hoo, wacky me.

I think there is a connection between OBE, remote viewing, and psychic ability; the difference is in how we EXPERIENCE a connection with something.  Sometimes you feel like you are "going to" something; other times you feel like it's "coming to you," and other times you feel as though you are "viewing something from afar," and then sometimes you feel it was "always with you."  Different strokes for different folks . . .

[Parmenion]

I must say,Tisha, Im impressed.[]

Might I ask how you are retrieving this information? Remote viewing, phasing, good old fashioned projecting?

Take care

Parmenion

[Tisha]

For these two particular cases I guess I'd call it "remote viewing" or "RV" i.e., I see something from far away, in a flash, like I'm watching a movie.  I haven't decided if RV works best while meditating deeply/concentrating on the matter at hand, OR, simplly allowing myself to be distracted by minutae and allowing the "pictures" to flash in (my answers to Frank's post came to me while distracted from some very boring work at the office). I can see the costs and benefits to both approaches, and I've been successful with both, but not with 100% success.  In fact, often I've been so wrong as to conclude my successes were just flukes.

RV is related to OBE (which I also do), although I'm not sure how - - - I think my theory on my previous post pretty much sums it up. I think the "magick" of it has to do with CONNECTIONS, not with any "technique."   It's all about how Aware you are about how Connected we all are.

Part of the problem with finding "proof" to OBE and psychic phenomena was described very aptly by Frank in an earlier post (in this string).  Many folks looking for "proof" approach the OBE question with the presumptions and "common sense" of Newtonian Physics (and other so-called "Laws" we operate under in the day-to-day).  

Unfortunately, by insisting that psychic phenomena conform to the laws humans invent in order to operate in the material world, folks will often go away disappointed, convinced that it's all a bunch of crap.  However, if one TRULY wants to understand the magic of psychic phenomena, one is better off approaching the question with an understanding of Quantum Physics along with the spiritual understanding of the Connectedness of All Being. Then it all makes sense . . . and it starts to come to you a little bit easier.

[Frank]

Tisha: I changed the object. I know we are speaking in public and all that attendent potential nonsense if you "get it wrong" but who gives a damn. What would you say is the object? It is about the same size as the previous object but with some other object that doesn't quite go.

Tell me, my friend.

Yours,
Frank