Why So Difficult to Scientifically Prove

[Inward]

Perhaps there is no Etheric Body, just consciousness.

I completely agree with you. I believe it is all consciousness. The idea of an Etheric body is a collective idea that we participate in.

Inward

[MisterJingo]

The latest and greatest? Can you show us the references?

Sure:

From efficacy to safety concerns: A STEP forward or a step back for clinical research and intercessory prayer?
The Study of Therapeutic Effects of Intercessory Prayer (STEP)
Mitchell W. Krucoff MD, FACC, Suzanne W. Crater RN, ANP-C and Kerry L. Lee PhD

Duke University Medical Center, Duke Clinical Research Institute, Durham, NC

Received 27 June 2005;  accepted 28 June 2005.  Available online 28 March 2006.

If you can't be bothered to pay for that, some of the details can be found here:

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

That's what happens when a bunch of skeptics, doubters, and disbelievers get together and try to disprove prayer experiments. So you discount all the science research that yielded positive results? You would rather not dig into the details and just assume they were faulty experiments? So you chose to ignore the many positive results and hold on to the very few negative results?

Well this shows what a person states when they can't see outside of their own rigid belief system. If you read the study, if you research the people who carried it out, you will see they they're not a bunch of sceptics, doubters and disbelievers. They actually conducted the study because those done previously were highly criticised and flawed – whose results were open to wild interpretation. But I guess flawed is ok if it follows our own beliefs?
Nothing has been ignored. I simply stated that near as many experiments carried out into this area have shown prayer has not worked. The most recent study which attempted to be as rigorous and unbiased as possible found that prayer actually made the people being prayed for recover much slower. No attempt at doubt or scepticism, just a series of double blind studies and their results.

I've seen the results of prayer. Long ago my Mother had serious back problems. For a long time she could not bend up. So she lived a life bent over at 90 degrees. It was terrible, painful, and consistent for a long time. Doctors had documented this for some time. One day she went to Catherine Coleman, a famous Christian healer. During the healing ministry she suddenly felt heat in her back and from that day forward she has been healed, completely.

Well that is fantastic news. But all it shows is she was healed. For all we know the belief she had in this person, the mindset created during the healing ministry, is what healed this problem ie she healed herself, not gained healing external to herself.

So being a doubter you might think it's just the power of that old physical brain. There has been many supernatural occurrences in various such crusades of most ministries, just not Catherine Coleman. For example, one day in Kenneth Hagan's ministry he asked a crippled woman in a wheelchair to come up to the front of the church for healing. Suddenly her entire body began floating up and levitating about 10 feet off the ground floating and rotating around and began to unravel her crippled curled up body. Then she slowly floated down. This happened in front of thousands of people.

Please can you provide any evidence of this apart from hear say? I just find it staggering that we can view galaxies hundreds of billions of light years away, we can see down to the atomic level, we can see near anything on Earth in an instant. Yet, we still have no evidence or proof of all these flying, levitating and teleporting people. But I guess this makes me a disbeliever because I don't believe third hand knowledge.

Do you actually think a huge piece of glass is going to move up and be replaced by another piece without anyone seeing or hearing this? Have you ever tried to place two pieces of glass together seamlessly so that you cannot see the seam?

The glass is specifically created for the trick, most people around are in on the trick. If you really want to argue about this, argue with the magicians who have been doing this too and have stated how it is done.

Where can I buy a magic trick device that allows me to fly over 50 feet across and about 50 feet high in the air from one building to another? Are you tell us there was a huge crane that hosted Chris 50 feet in the air and moved him over 50 feet to the next building? Will you say that all the people who came out of the businesses to watch Chris were lying on camera. Don't you think they will notice a 100 foot crane? What about the cranes shadows on the walls and ground. What about engine noise? What about when Chris walked down one the highest Las Vegas buildings, when there was clearly a ledge that extended over Chris. How is a string going to do that?

Do you mean this trick?:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WauSnzWG2E8
Which was done with wires, which was done with a group of Criss' groupies to show shock and surprise, and was actually done in some secluded industrial park which just happened to have a group of people to see hanging about. Just watch the camera angels, always at a position not to expose shadow, always at a position as not to look directly upwards (as they would show the devise the wires were attached to). No magician to date has been truthful when they say they use no camera tricks, that they use no stooges. Their job is to misdirect and entertain us.
If you really take this kind of stuff as proof of people doing amazing feats, I really do worry.
Also, please go do a search on the tricks Criss has botched giving the secret of the illusion away. This has happened a few times now.
Criss is a talented showman, but he is not a superhuman with mystical powers.

Lets clarify the difference between David Blaine and the famous David Blaine copycat magician. David levitates about two feet off the ground while the camera man films low, showing all his feet and his feet shadows. The famous David Blaine copycat claims he can do it and he sells this trick online. People who've purchased this trick reveal the secret in forums. Most people are disappointed and even want their money back. The instructions say to cut the bottoms of your shoes off. The idea is push yourself up with the front of your feet and the people see your entire shoe rise, including the front part of your shoe.

That's not how the trick is done at all. Blaine uses a form of levitation called Balducci levitation (which has been around for a long time) http://www.magiclearn.50megs.com/photo2.html . If you notice, he will only levitate while at a certain angle to the people, with the people in a certain spot. The crux of this levitation type is you almost tiptoe on one foot while keeping the other foot straight. Due to your angle to the observers, that foot is obscured, so it looks like you are levitating an inch or too.
What makes the trick more interesting for home viewers is that the camera cuts to his feet, where it now looks like he is levitating 2 foot. This is added in later using wires. But the people's reaction is genuine. They simply see him rise a few inches to our 2 foot.

So here's the comparison:

* David rises 2 feet, clearly showing the shadows of both feet. The camera films low and clearly shows there's no part of David that is touching the ground.
* David copycat rises about three inches off the ground and the audience must view this at an upper angle.

So the debunkers claim David used a crane to hoist his body up in the air and then used computers to remove all the cranes shadows and reflections in the glass.

Read the above and do your own research on this. This is an illusion which has been used for a very long time.

Here's another question. How does Chris do his levitations where he walks in a cafe filled with people, everyone is watching, Chris floats up about 2 feet in the air and then moves forward on to a chair. The camera angle clearly shows that Chris Angles feet where no where near the ground.

Hmm lets see from the horses mouth:

http://media.putfile.com/Criss-Angel-Levitation-Revealed-20

Add to this stooges and complimentary camera angles. If you look at no links I supplied, please look at the above.

I am very surprised you do not know anything about this. It was a well known TV science show by BBC called "Parallel Universes." It interviews a lot of famous scientists. In there Alan Guth describes how to create a new universe in your basement:

Yes, but this is speculation not theory. Alan Guth is the guy who proposed inflationary theory. This theory has seriously holes in it, which you can research for yourself. This is nothing to do with M-Theory as such. It's just an idea that a universe can be created (no information on how such a feat would be possible) and it would expand rapidly. That's it.

Surely you know millions of dollars are being spent on M-theory experiments now. M-theory is booming. We'll just have to wait and see what come of it.

What M-Theory experiments? I'd be very interested to hear about them.

It predicted 911 3 hours in advance. Did you know that quantum random generators are supposed to be the only thing that is purely random? How do you explain how they suddenly cease to be purely random?

No it didn't. It simply showed a supposedly none random spike in random data before an event. We don't know what this spike is, or what caused it. It could have been some global awareness. We really don't know. So I don't make claims as to its meaning or importance right now.

Honestly MisterJingo, don't you think a lot of people would find your above statement very insulting? ... "suggestions" Please by all means, it is your right to believe all these small groups of scientists, researchers, and spiritualists are creating a big cesspool of brainwashing, fooling each other into seeing things. So I guess it helps your theory in belittling these people. It would be quite a big assumption on your part to suggestion all small groups are only succeeding through acts of suggestion and shared belief.

I for one have not directly insulted anyone. I actually have stated many times I respect people interested in, and researching into these areas - so making such claims is a bit dramatic.
If you wish to see the power of suggestion do a bit of background reading into the countless experiments which have researched suggestion in solo and group situations.   Also look into false memory syndrome, the placebo effect (which has been shown to have a natural cause), accelerated recuperation, and do further reading into mentalism, suggestion through media and advertising etc.
I haven't belittled anyone. I have simply stated that I have seen groups convince each other of pretty drastic or far out actions through reinforced belief and suggestion. I have seen people who, through belief imposed on them through a group, believed amazing things were happening to them i.e. their body was taken over by another member, they were pushed down to the floor from a distance by another group members mind etc. All of it had its roots in suggestion.
Nowhere have I ever said everything is suggestion just that by giving up rational thinking and having total belief in a group don't mean amazing things experienced there hold any greater truth.

That is your opinion that I do not share. Indeed I believe that if I found a person that can vanish right before my eyes then that is better than you finding nothing.

Well that's fantastic. Why don't they record themselves doing it and put it on the net. They could obscure their face etc if they want anonymity. As you said in the RTZ thread, you have to ask for proof and research it.

No MisterJingo. You incarnated in this life, on this planet for a reason. This is a planet where nearly all people incarnate with a veil placed over their memories. It is one's choice to drop the skepticism, doubting, and negativity, but it takes time to overcome such negative momentum.

I might have incarnated here for you to teleport to me. Belief or disbelief has nothing to do with this. So please, I would love you to teleport to me. For all you know, you could have incarnated her to do this act.

You really think so? You really think that countless incarnations of building up disbelief and doubt has not consequences on what you attract to your reality?

I believe one can effect change in their reality own interpretation of reality, but not effect reality itself. I've seen nothing to convince me of this fact to date.

Yes I did MisterJingo. Perhaps you chose to not focus on it. Again, there are universal laws the all beings work with. It is very simple. Doubt, disbeliefs, negativity is not the way if you want to manipulate material matter with the mind. Such manipulation abides with universal laws. My research has provided personal proof that mind over matter is real. If you analyze numerous research, you should begin to notice a pattern. Take a look at research that is publicized to the world. Then spend some time searching for small group research. See if you begin to notice a pattern.

Well you didn't answer why babies (no belief at all) do not produce amazing feats, you didn't explain why animals who wouldn't understand our beliefs do not do amazing feats. You didn't explain how tribes found within the last 10 years, so absolutely secluded from our beliefs, haven't had a history of amazing feats. There are countless examples where such a theory falls on its face. But I've found adherents to such theory either ignore the gaping inconsistencies or simply redefine their beliefs to state such things as the collective unconsciousness is the cause .

There was a person who could prove time after time if a person is walking behind a wall simply by looking at their aura. Amazingly enough, they could even prove this to a few people here and there, which in itself is a great accomplishment. Yet when they went on live TV they failed miserably.

I've read of experiments where such people also failed in laboratories or the experiments where a psychic claimed they could detect the energy of a living being. The experiment simply consisted of a young child putting their hands under the blindfolded psychics at random intervals, and the psychic simply had to state when she could detect energy. This failed spectacularly. All experiments I have read like this have failed. An amusing program pitted a monkeys' random predictions against that of a psychic in a number of challenges, and the monkey actually scored higher. I really wish these experiments had gone well. I don't watch them, or read up on them wishing them to fail. But having seen so many spectacular failures, and no stunning successes, I have to question why this is.

[catmeow]

Just spotted all this stuff about David Blaine and Criss Angel.  I'm really amazed that there are people who believe these guys are really levitating!  It's a trick guys, get real.  MisterJingo explained exactly how it's done.  It's done by misdirection, camera angles, wires and stooges.  

The Blaine levitation is as MisterJingo says, a simple trick of standing on one tiptoe, filming peoples reaction's and then adding in the 2 foot wire-levitation later when no-one is around. I can do this trick myself and it amuses people.  YOU can do it and check out how it looks in a full-length mirror, it's spooky.

Both Blaine and Angel are excellent magicians, as is our own Derren Brown (here in the UK).  But that's all. It really is ridiculously easy to fool people using the most simple, allbeit ingenious, techniques. You need to take alook at "13 Steps to Mentalism", to see how easy this stuff is:

http://www.magicbox.uk.com/exec.php/product/ProductDetail/00828//

What I would say though is that there is very good evidence for ESP, and I've certainly performed ESP feats which I believe are incontravertible.  I've also been to Psychic Fayres and been utterly unimpressed at the pathetic psychic readings I've been given.

So you takes your choice.  But Blaine and Angel are just magicians.  Sheesh.... :confused:

btw, David Copperfield is a different matter - he's an eastern mystic with amazing powers of levitation...... he can really fly!  

[MisterJingo]

You need to take alook at "13 Steps to Mentalism", to see how easy this stuff is:

http://www.magicbox.uk.com/exec.php/product/ProductDetail/00828//

Dammit! Posting interesting sounding books, hence forcing me to buy them   I just went and bought it off ebay

What I would say though is that there is very good evidence for ESP, and I've certainly performed ESP feats which I believe are incontravertible.  I've also been to Psychic Fayres and been utterly unimpressed at the pathetic psychic readings I've been given.

I hope I don't come across as a complete sceptic  :confused:. I've had a lot of very interesting things happen which do seem to have their roots in ESP (or at least areas we currently have no real knowledge of) - I just haven't felt the need to take on board all encompassing belief systems to explain these things.

btw, David Copperfield is a different matter - he's an eastern mystic with amazing powers of levitation...... he can really fly!  

[Inward]

OK, this discussion is getting to argumentative. We can go back and forth forever. You want global proof. I keep telling you it won't happen for many years. You don't have any personal proof. I have personal proof. If it bothers you that other people actually came to have personal proof then you'll just need to deal with it.

I'll try to keep this short.

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2006/04.06/05-prayer.html

Wouldn't you agree that shows positive results? It is perhaps the Christians that are disappointed with the results. Three groups of about 600 people each. The group that had nobody praying for them had 158 cardiac complications. The group that silently prayed (the patients had no idea a group was praying for them) had 187 complications. That's a significant difference statically, which if accurate shows consciousness affects matter. Again, the poor Christians, yet it is still positive results by my standard. Art Bell discovered this effect long ago when he was conducting numerous live radio group consciousness experiments. It scared him so bad that he said he never wants to do another one. Once he had his millions of listeners focus on a storm. It worked but backfired in huge way. The storm changed direction and hit a worse area <<<G>>>.

Personally I am a little surprised such publicized results are not random. I would expect such well publicized results to be all over the place. That is, if you perform 10 well done experiments then you would get 10 different results. On the other hand, it is somewhat hilarious how possibly the collective consciousness achieved both results. 1. The science community loves it because it achieved the opposite what the Christian community claimed. 2. It still provides positive results in that it is still showing that when someone prays for a patient that it changes the results even though the patient has no idea they're being prayed for, but I would not be surprised if this changed if the scientists continue to push the matter. That is, if they continue to dig into the matter then I think the results will eventually even out. Who knows ... I don't speak for the collective, lol.

This goes far beyond praying for people. From affecting bacteria to plants.  Dr. Franklin Loehr achieved positive results in a controlled experiment to see what effect prayer had on germinating seeds. Time after time the results indicated that prayer helped speed germination. Yet negative prayer halted germination.

Dr. Dossey in his research noted that if bacteria respond to outside intentions by growing more slowly when prayed over, than control groups not receiving prayer, then one cannot dismiss this result by attributing it to negative suggestion.

Jean Barry, a physician-researcher in Bordeaux, France, works with the destructive fungus, Rhizoctonia Solani.
Quote, "The researchers William H. Tedder and Melissa L. Monty from the University of Tennessee replicated the experiment. The goal of this study was to inhibit the growth of the fungus from the distance of one to fifteen miles. Two groups participated. Group one was made up of Tedder and six others who knew him and frequently interacted with him over a year and a half. Group 2 consisted of 8 volunteers who either did not know Tedder or did not interact with him frequently.  When the growth differential between the experimental and control dishes were compared, group one was highly successful. The likelihood of explaining their results by chance were less than 3 in 100,000. Group two was less successful. Their likelihood of a chance explanation was 6 in 100. Why was group one more successful? The researchers theorized that because of their established rapport with Tedder they might have had greater expectation and more motivation of a positive outcome than group two had."

Yet, we still have no evidence or proof of all these flying, levitating and teleporting people.

You mean lack of global proof and your lack of personal proof.

Well you didn't answer why babies (no belief at all) do not produce amazing feats, you didn't explain why animals who wouldn't understand our beliefs do not do amazing feats. You didn't explain how tribes found within the last 10 years, so absolutely secluded from our beliefs, haven't had a history of amazing feats. There are countless examples where such a theory falls on its face.

I've explained it too many times. It takes a developed being. Remember our hypothetical example of advanced people on other planets? Animals do not have a mental body like humans. Babies do not have a developed astral body much less a developed mental body.


Inward

[jub jub]

btw, David Copperfield is a different matter - he's an eastern mystic with amazing powers of levitation...... he can really fly! Laughing

Copperfield, now he's the real deal! :mrgreen:

[Inward]

Actually I'm not suggesting Chris has any supernatural abilities. Personally I think he does has some abilities. Here's my quote from the start in this thread

You mean like Chris Angel, lol. I can attest there are people who can break free from such beliefs. I don't know if Chris Angel is one, but I personally know of others.

Can someone please explain exactly what you mean by "not having a belief system."  If I understand the definition of the word "belief" then I'm wondering how can someone not believe in anything?

Inward

[catmeow]

MJ - Hope you enjoy the book! Wow I sold something...