Classic OBE vs. Phasing

[Bedeekin]

When I separate into my bedroom... I call this a 1st phase... everything is as it is. The wall is my wall.. the street is my street.. the milkman outside delivering milk across the road is my milkman... 1 mile away my gfriends house I decide to float to is her house... etc

I still however don't think any spiritual etheric body or part of myself is vacant from my body... nothing of substance is watching my milkman deliver milk... nothing has actually left my body.

I have experimented with 1st phase OOBEs for over 25 years now. I have come to certain conclusions at certain times. I would always be certain at the time... but a few things would always bring me down to earth, no matter what new theory I got excited about.

* I have perception of body but it is residual and only evident if I think about it - like reaching out to touch something.

* I am absolutely free of environment. I am less than a ghost.

* I commonly experienced times when I would separate and intend a target. Upon arriving (usually very swiftly) I would be faced with a bizarre point-of-view. Such an experience illustrates this perfectly.

"I thought of my girlfriend and as always I watched my room blur... the tunnel rushing along feeling... the next thing I saw was a massive white tall structure and a black ground that was moving up and down gently - like a black sea. I looked at it for a few seconds wondering why I was there. As I did so I started to move away from the white column. As I got Further away it suddenly dawned on me that it was a white chair leg and the black blur was the floor. My eyes were seemingly at floor height. I lifted myself up and realised I was in a small room. In the corner was a bed with a person in it. I was in my girlfriends caravan..." excerpt from my diary (13/02/93)"

My point of perspective at the beginning of the experience was a millimeter or less away from the chair leg... I interpreted it as a massive white obelisk or wall. When faced with a normal sized chair leg I felt it was hundreds of feet high... pulling back away from the 'wall' allowed me to see it in its entirity.  Many similar experiences has led me to come to a conclusion that when in 1st I am a point. A tiny point of focus that can navigate around 3D space.

Whatever it is it is merely a perception of awareness... not a fragment of self. A directed awareness.

[Pauli2]

Give it a rest Pauli.
It's been spelled out for you multiple times already.

No, it has not.

[Pauli2]

My point of perspective at the beginning of the experience was a millimeter or less away from the chair leg... I interpreted it as a massive white obelisk or wall. When faced with a normal sized chair leg I felt it was hundreds of feet high... pulling back away from the 'wall' allowed me to see it in its entirity.  Many similar experiences has led me to come to a conclusion that when in 1st I am a point. A tiny point of focus that can navigate around 3D space.

Whatever it is it is merely a perception of awareness... not a fragment of self. A directed awareness.

I have read several books on OBE and I still don't know what you mean by "1st". In Monroe's book, Far Journeys, he describes on page 78 (Broadway Edition): "My physical body appeared to be not one, but two..."

And it is clear for the rest of the book that Monroe moves around in his 3rd body. I haven't got a clue what u mean with "1st", so maybe that should be explained? Can you refer to any book or well known authority who explains this matter?

Secondly, the fact that you feel that you're a point of awareness doesn't mean that you have _not_ left your body. It doesn't mean either that you are not IN your body either, as there could be several possible interpretations to your experience.

Your experience doesn't even take into account the mind-split effect, which make your model yet another over-simplification in the poor spirit of Frank.

Anyway, thanks for giving me an example of your experience and trying to explain your model to me.


---

I would be a little more convinced if you could point out some "place" where you have discovered that you "are", in order for me to believe your statement that you are not IN your body to begin with, and thus never can go OUT of body.

I would also want a much more firm definition of exactly what you mean by "perception" and "awareness". Really a strict definition, thanks.

[Summerlander]

Why am I able to know when I go LD then? How am I able to distinguish between the two states OBE and LD?

Don't pull my leg by saying that there is a border state where I can't tell one from the other, because I already know that.

Probably different 'rewiring' of the brain...hence different experiences. When lucid, the left hemisphere could be communicating more with the right hemisphere. Also, the brain waves change. Possible, isn't it?

Relax...I don't know anything and I'm enjoying winding you up. I too have made the distinction between 1st and 2nd phase as Bedeekin calls it. In fact, my first OOBE was seemingly in the physical realm and got catapulted out. I even got to see a little girl I am pretty sure I had never seen with my physical eyes before...later, in the waking state, her existence was confirmed to me.

Locale I...focus 1 oC....RTZ...here-now...1st phase OOBE - a REAL OOBE. I can't see why not. It's feasible if we consider that the human mind might extend beyond the physical body. Someone once said that the soul does not reside in the body but rather the body resides in the realm of the soul...I see sense in that.

I have read several books on OBE and I still don't know what you mean by "1st". In Monroe's book, Far Journeys, he describes on page 78 (Broadway Edition): "My physical body appeared to be not one, but two..."

And it is clear for the rest of the book that Monroe moves around in his 3rd body. I haven't got a clue what u mean with "1st", so maybe that should be explained? Can you refer to any book or well known authority who explains this matter?

Secondly, the fact that you feel that you're a point of awareness doesn't mean that you have _not_ left your body. It doesn't mean either that you are not IN your body either, as there could be several possible interpretations to your experience.

Your experience doesn't even take into account the mind-split effect, which make your model yet another over-simplification in the poor spirit of Frank.

Anyway, thanks for giving me an example of your experience and trying to explain your model to me.


---

I would be a little more convinced if you could point out some "place" where you have discovered that you "are", in order for me to believe your statement that you are not IN your body to begin with, and thus never can go OUT of body.

I would also want a much more firm definition of exactly what you mean by "perception" and "awareness". Really a strict definition, thanks.

1st phase OOBE = Here-Now projection or what Monroe called Locale I. - Of course you sense that you get out of your body and can seemingly view your physical body from the outside. But just because you sense that you have separated does not really mean that you have. This is what we are trying to say here. The movement or motion experienced could be a metaphor for the will to explore...a shifting of a focus but in reality you are actually everywhere. It's no wonder then that sometimes in this type of projection we seem to mouse-trail as though we are trying to decide and pinpoint where we are going to be and movement is difficult. We are trying to narrow down our perspective to one point of view only which is more familiar to us but the new state is telling us that we are here there and everywhere and probably NOWHERE!!!

By the way, Robert Monroe had a good model, Frank Kepple had a good model...but it doesn't mean that they were right. They are just interpretations. The trouble is labelling especially when it comes to 2nd phase (astral projection). We are labelling a phenomenon which we don't know much about as though it is a three-dimensional world. It may appear to be so at first but soon you realise that there is more than meets the metaphysical eye.

We don't have several bodies, we have a physical body in the waking world and I can assure you that inside this body you will find no other bodies. You won't even find an "I" in there. The metaphysical realm is another frequency of reality which corresponds to a particular state of consciousness. In there you can experience a body similar to the physical if you wish and most of the time you find that it is manifested already from expectation. If you want you can manifest the body of a donkey or no body at all...what you see are all representations of thought...THOUGHT!

The realm of thoughts which I suspect can be experienced from a personal and collective perspective. Something unites us all and...like 1st phase can SEEMINGLY get you info about physical events that you couldn't possibly know at the time...2nd phase can SEEMINGLY provide you with telepathic experiences.

Note that the term OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE does not actually affirm that individuals leave their bodies. It simply means that you EXPERIENCE leaving the body. This is simply an illusion which best translates for us, in sensations that we are accustomed to, the shifting in focuses of consciousness and inter-dimensional travel. If you try the phasing recommended by Xanth, you'll find that you can get to places without having to separate from the body to find a slightly inaccurate replica of your room. You can literally reach different environments using the hypnagogic imagery. You mind is already shifting its focus away from the awareness of being in the body to acquire the awareness of being somewhere else.

This is why dreams can also be regarded as "out-of-body" experiences because, whilst in the dream, you are not aware of your physical body as your focus is in the dreamworld and you probably have another body there. Nevertheless, you never really left your physical body because you are also there, and, if your physical bladder is full of wee, you may even feel like using the toilet in the dream!! You may even use the toilet in the dream only to find that you are using the wrong body and the stream of wee is never-ending while that full-bladder feeling persists...

Here's another way of looking at what we are trying to explain here. Just like in the waking state we can daydream, we can also remote view. When we daydream we are aware that our minds are both in the physical but also focusing somewhere else. We are also in the metaphysical realm at the same time and probably living out several "dreams" at the same time, most of which we are UNCONSCIOUS to. While daydreaming is possibly a weaker form of 2nd phase,  remote viewing would be a weaker form of 1st phase. Well, "weaker" is probably not the word...more like different forms of the same thing. In OOBEs we just tend to incorporate the metaphor of actually making some sort of journey by traversing non-existent space as in 2nd phase (because space in the metaphysical realm is a thought too), and traversing space of what is possibly the physical when we don't have to when we could teleport our focus to where we already are unconsciously.

PHEW...does this waffle make sense to you now?

[Pauli2]

I have a lot of problems here.

I would like to know how you have arrived at your definitions. Could u give some more details? (continue reading below)

1st phase OOBE = Here-Now projection or what Monroe called Locale I.

Ok, let's start with what u call "1st phase OOBE".

According to Monroe in his later days he divided the reality into various Focus Levels. What u call 1st phase, never got a Focus Level. Focus Levels are primarily specific brain wave patterns. No brain wave pattern matched an OBE state in what seemed to be the physical world (the physical world itself got labeled C-1 or F 1). But Monroe noticed that the physical, perceived while OBE, was not the same as perceived in-body. The now well known handing out of "large playing cards" is one such example, while Monroe was OBE, probably from F 10.

The brave RB, dared to postulate that the physical world radiates something which can only be seen while OBE. RB named that state the RTZ.

Theosophists have used the name etheric world for a similar radiation while OBE.

My Note: I think there is a difference between what RB calls the etheric body and what the theosophists call the etheric body. RB's etheric body is more in line with what Monroe called the Second Body. Remember, Monroe went OBE in his Third Body!

So...

The theosophists etheric world and the RTZ is a world seen. It's a _world_ seen.

When u use the term "1st phase" is that the physical world seen from an OBE perspective? Or is it a state of mind? Or is it a state of phase? Does there at all exist a physical world in the 1st phase?

You see... I have a lot of problems getting your worldview together if you claim that we are not IN body, so we can never go OUT of body.

And finally, the Frank question: On what experience do you base your definition "1st phase"?

Clearly Xanth was without an answer and just mocked me with an indirect personal insult, that he "gives up on me".

So:

1. Experience which backs up your claim.
2. Tell me what the 1st phase is. World image? phase state? state of mind? impression of awareness? - And please, be specific.

. . . We are trying to narrow down our perspective to one point of view only which is more familiar to us but the new state is telling us that we are here there and everywhere and probably NOWHERE!!!

This can't be sane at all, being everywhere and nowhere. Let's take an example. If I move my awareness within my body, for example while doing RB's NEW and "brushing" my right big toe, that's because there are nerve endings in my toe which send signals back to me.

If I go OBE and fly in the sky, but at the same time is not OUT of body, what part of the sky is sending back signals to me that I'm in the sky? Non-physical nerves? You now have to explain what awareness is. In the case of the physical body it's signals sent back and forth.

And again.

On what experiences do you base your claim?

We don't have several bodies, we have a physical body in the waking world and I can assure you that inside this body you will find no other bodies.

According to Monroe we have at least a Second and a third Body while OBE.

According to Leland we have multiple bodies, like casual and buddhic, please take your time reading -> his latest Astral Log

According to RB, when he discovered the mind-split effect, he was divided between two different bodies.

All those accounts are valid experiences.

You, Xanth & Frank have so far shown no such valid experiences backing your claims.

The realm of thoughts which I suspect can be experienced from a personal and collective perspective. Something unites us all and...like 1st phase can SEEMINGLY get you info about physical events that you couldn't possibly know at the time...2nd phase can SEEMINGLY provide you with telepathic experiences.

Stop a moment.

You claim that we have no telepathic ability in the so called "1st phase". Exactly why?

You claim that we are not OUT of body, so why would the "1st phase" rob away telepathic ability?

Can't 2 persons in "1st phase" be telepathic?

And what do you mean with the capital "SEEMINGLY"? No telepathic in "2nd phase" either? This needs something to back your claims. Experiences. Details. Descriptions!

Note that the term OUT-OF-BODY EXPERIENCE does not actually affirm that individuals leave their bodies. It simply means that you EXPERIENCE leaving the body. This is simply an illusion which best translates for us, in sensations that we are accustomed to, the shifting in focuses of consciousness and inter-dimensional travel. If you try the phasing recommended by Xanth, you'll find that you can get to places without having to separate from the body to find a slightly inaccurate replica of your room. You can literally reach different environments using the hypnagogic imagery. You mind is already shifting its focus away from the awareness of being in the body to acquire the awareness of being somewhere else.

It's very clear to me that people who do phase/LD, and skip the RTZ, never feels that they leave the physical body in the same way as the OBE/vibrational-state does. But that only means that Buhlman is right: An LD is not an OBE.

See my previous post on links to Buhlman's Newsletters, I won't repeat it here.

Nevertheless, this may make things even more clear, why Frank also thought he never went OUT of body, because he never OBE:d, he only had LDs or similar low energetic (see Buhlman) projections. Frank never did much energy work either, which might have added to the problem of not having RTZ OBEs.

This is why dreams can also be regarded as "out-of-body" experiences because, whilst in the dream, you are not aware of your physical body as your focus is in the dreamworld and you probably have another body there. Nevertheless, you never really left your physical body because you are also there, and, if your physical bladder is full of wee, you may even feel like using the toilet in the dream!! You may even use the toilet in the dream only to find that you are using the wrong body and the stream of wee is never-ending while that full-bladder feeling persists...

Now...

This really needs some kind of explanation from you. This bi-location feeling, is it from a mind-split or from a dual awareness?

This astral goer who also feel wee-wee, could as easily be explained with the OBE:er being connected with his physical body somehow, either through Moen's Disk or with any variation of a silver cord, but it is still an out-of-body experience. OUT of body. Not somewhere else or nowhere else.

Please, use valid experiences, not something which can easily be explained with much simpler terms.

Also remember that Monroe went so far out, that when he reached the Aperture, he had lost connection with both his body (which had started to die) and lost connection with his I-There. Because Monroe was out of body!

I don't think you can explain that. Being too out of body to easily go back in again. If that was merely a matter of putting your focus of attention, why did his body start to die and why would his I-There be unable to contact him?

Explain, please.

Really I don't think you can walk around that.

Here's another way of looking at what we are trying to explain here. Just like in the waking state we can daydream, we can also remote view. When we daydream we are aware that our minds are both in the physical but also focusing somewhere else. We are also in the metaphysical realm at the same time and probably living out several "dreams" at the same time, most of which we are UNCONSCIOUS to. While daydreaming is possibly a weaker form of 2nd phase,  remote viewing would be a weaker form of 1st phase. Well, "weaker" is probably not the word...more like different forms of the same thing. In OOBEs we just tend to incorporate the metaphor of actually making some sort of journey by traversing non-existent space as in 2nd phase (because space in the metaphysical realm is a thought too), and traversing space of what is possibly the physical when we don't have to when we could teleport our focus to where we already are unconsciously.

Well, we may even be split into various Aspects of Self which wanders around from time to time.

Let me tell you the story from Moen's 4th book:

It goes something like this. Moen wants to do partnered exploration with Denise into F 27, but first Moen wants to try it out a little by himself as he feels a bit rusty. He goes to TMI-There and stands in front of the Exploration 27 Crystal. Then suddenly Denise shows up.

Moen: "Ohh.. Denise?! You are here? So you have laid down in the physical to go here?"

Denise: "No not at all. In the physical I'm sitting at home, watching boring sit-com re-runs. I'm sure I'll not remember anything of meeting you here, when I rejoin myself in the physical."


---

Some part of Denise has gone out-of-body, to F 27 and TMI-There. That part of Denise will then rejoin herself, the main part of Denise, that is living in the physical, going back in-body.

That's an experience.

Your turn.

[Xanth]

I have a lot of problems here.

That's about all I'll agree with you.

Your problem is that you take a published authors word as gospel without ever trying to find out FOR YOURSELF via direct experience if it's true or false.  You've jumped directly into believing their words wholeheartedly.  Believing... that's the most you can ever get from their words.  A BELIEF.  You'll never KNOW if what they say is true or not.

You've limited yourself. 
You've boxed yourself in to only their experiences. 
You've contained your possible outcomes to only that which they've done.

The simple fact is that Summerlander, Bedeekin and everyone else here can answer any question you have... but you'll never understand, because to you, those answers can only ever be a belief. 

[Pauli2]

Xanth, I still request detailed experiences.

[Summerlander]

Pauli2, you seem to be very biased by RBs and Moens and Monroe's and what not. You have to remember that all these men have their own interpretations of what they have experienced. Also, I'm pretty sure their editors want them to make it more exciting once in a while for the same of promotions and sales.

1st phase is simply a termed that we use over on Astral viewers to describe an OOBE which is seemingly a projection into the physical realm or a simulation of it which could have been possibly manifested by the collective consciousness. It's very distinct in movement, vision and autoscopy is experienced. And yes, in this one, at least from my own experience, we get the sensation of separating from the body. Sometimes strong vibrations are experienced before hand, other times there is only a sense of deep paralysis which may be followed by a sensation of sliding or slipping. Btw, I'd like to stress here that I never said this type of projection deprives you of telepathy, I just didn't mention telepathy for this type because I haven't experienced it.

2nd phase is a projection to what would be thought of as the metaphysical realm which, in its representational form can emulate the physical reality rather inaccurately and can also takes us to worlds which are seemingly beyond our imagination. I can't claim to know exactly what the experience is because the truth is, nobody knows. You only really get people who think they know and tell you that it is as they say but... here's an analogy: how can a 2-dimensional being explain to his mates his 3-dimensional experience? Btw, I say that this type of projection seemingly opens up telepathic links because I have visited certain people on Astral Viewers and I seem to have seen either what was in their heads at the time (experience made more sense to them than me, the projector) or at times I seem to have seen slightly inaccurate replicas of what they were doing in the physical. I also spoke to them but they were not aware of conversing with me which makes me posit that I was speaking to their unconscious selves. One of them was even meditating at the time of my experience and he even said to his girlfriend that he felt funny and felt as though he should remember someone or something. Perhaps in his meditative state his brain was on alpha mode and partially tuned into my frequency from a fraction of conscious perspective while the rest was unconscious to the 'conversation'. Again, I cannot claim this as fact as some authors do. It is only conjecture. We have to take into account that our OOBEs are open to all sorts of interpretations and baseless associations by the people we visit and not to mention coincidences...so...validations are not really validations.

You can join Astral Viewers and ask CaitHT and stoneZoMbIe about my visits to them. Many there believe that the "visit" actually took place. I have so many experiences written down now because I myself am writing a book and there are a few experiences in my journal on AVers too. I'd like to highlight something for you though, Pauli2...don't take what others claim as the absolute truth, have a fresh perspective when you have OOBEs, make observations and draw your own conclusions. By the way, I usually have vibrations and employ a method of separation when I induce but even today I don't claim that I really leave my body for sure. I think you also underestimate the human brain massively and you should really look into the whole cryptomnesia subject. You know more than you think you know!!

[Bedeekin]

I have read several books on OBE and I still don't know what you mean by "1st". In Monroe's book, Far Journeys, he describes on page 78 (Broadway Edition): "My physical body appeared to be not one, but two..."

And it is clear for the rest of the book that Monroe moves around in his 3rd body. I haven't got a clue what u mean with "1st", so maybe that should be explained? Can you refer to any book or well known authority who explains this matter?

Secondly, the fact that you feel that you're a point of awareness doesn't mean that you have _not_ left your body. It doesn't mean either that you are not IN your body either, as there could be several possible interpretations to your experience.

Your experience doesn't even take into account the mind-split effect, which make your model yet another over-simplification in the poor spirit of Frank.

Anyway, thanks for giving me an example of your experience and trying to explain your model to me.


---

I would be a little more convinced if you could point out some "place" where you have discovered that you "are", in order for me to believe your statement that you are not IN your body to begin with, and thus never can go OUT of body.

I would also want a much more firm definition of exactly what you mean by "perception" and "awareness". Really a strict definition, thanks.

I'll take Xanth's view on this one and say that regardless of what you read... you need to try it yourself before making any actual arguments for or against anything.

I haven't read all of Monroe's books... I have splashed through the 3rd one in a non-commital way. I hadn't heard of Monroe until I was 10 years into my own experiences.

Unfortunately the reply you gave wasn't dotted by your own experiences... it was Monroe said this... Monroe said that... etc

I have yet to see or experience any real benefit of his Hemi-sync product... so his whole legacy flagship lynchpin product is still held in severe question by me. That doesn't bode well for the rest of his claims built upon his hemysync foundation.

Hang on... wasn't Monroe phasing by the time the second book came out and isn't this thread about classic OBE vs phasing?

The large playing card thing... or misjudging or misinterpreting things during 1st is purely down to vision (which isn't so hot) and the state of the information collating abilities. Like when in some TV game shows they show a very small section of an object and slowly pull back to reveal what it is.
It's almost like looking at an object that's been photographed at a strange angle so it appears to look like something else... a simulcra. OOBE vision because of it's nature (360 degree 2D vision) gives rise to simulcras. Putting it simply - Your 'self'... ground control... base... whatever you want to call it... is collecting the information that your floating camera is picking up.

A thinking mass of whatever (etheric,astral)... isn't floating around in space... it's just a point of sensory perceptions.

Another way of thinking about it abstractly... it is like a camera floating around in a console game or 3D modeling interface. A floating roving invisible camera that doesn't exist.

This is why I separate 1st (locale I/RTZ) form AP (2nd phase)... AP is internal... and much easier.

Please don't spout semantics of what Monroe or Bruce said.. It is pointless because I don't agree or to some extent believe what they say and I will switch off.

There is no need to argue for them because I don't care about what they think.

I do hold in much more esteem those who actively engage in the exploration and don't charge a penny... those who help without provacation and constantly evolve with the phenomenon.

[Xanth]

Xanth, I still request detailed experiences.

All my experiences that I've recorded are clearly on my website.
None of them are going to help you, because they're *MY* experiences.

Moens experiences don't help you because they're *HIS* experiences.
Same goes for every other person's experiences who has ever existed or will exist on this planet Earth.

None of them will ever help YOU, because the most you can get out of them is a BELIEF.
You can only BELIEVE their experiences are real... you'll never KNOW.

KNOWN > BELIEF

The only way you can turn a belief into a known is by actually experiencing stuff for yourself.

[Bedeekin]

Whenever I theorize 'what it is' I come up with multiple explinations myself; colorful far fetched bordering on Scifi to very mundane neurological explanations. That's half the problem. It's constantly changed as I have grown older. I have never held down or pinned down what it actually is.

We can compare similarities.

[Summerlander]

We can compare similarities

And there have been loads of similarities and I think we have come a long way on Astral Viewers.

[Bedeekin]

Actually... since I came online I have noticed a core of actual practitioners emerging that crave to teach what they have learned... asking for NOTHING in return... these people seem to agree on core principles. That's important.

[Stookie]

Hi Pauli,

Here is the first experience I had that changed my perspective permanently. I've shared it once publicly before on this site years ago, but tend not too talk about it much because it's IMPOSSIBLE to describe. All descriptions of it are incorrect, so please keep in mind I'm doing my best:

(I'm just going to jump into the heart of it, the rest doesn't matter.)

I "woke up" as a single point of consciousness, attached to the end of a ripple on an infinite curtain of colors. This ripple was my entire life from birth to present. Every ripple was another human, and how our ripples flowed into each other was the physical world. The physical world was not a "place" from this perspective, it wasn't even real. It was a dream that we're all dreaming together, where our "ripples in the curtain overlap". Just consciousness. But not just this world, but ME TOO, the person I know myself as, born in the physical and defined by physical experiences, was just as much of an illusion as the rest of it.

I also felt that a "seam" at the end of the curtain was opening and I would be able to pass through it, completely leave everything viewed as "physical", and that it closed quickly and knocked me out, sending my awareness back into the illusion of the multicolored curtain. This was my impression at the time... I think my memory of it is distorted as I have nothing to compare it to in the physical world. But I remember my thoughts and feelings of it perfectly.

How this compares to Monroe and other travelers, I don't know. I don't care either. I KNOW what I experienced, and what defined it was consciousness itself, not descriptions of things within consciousness.

I can talk about it all day long and it's pointless. I don't expect others to find the same thing (they could probably experience the same thing and describe it completely different), but I do hope that others can find personal experiences that permanently change their perspective.

[Summerlander]

Actually... since I came online I have noticed a core of actual practitioners emerging that crave to teach what they have learned... asking for NOTHING in return... these people seem to agree on core principles. That's important.

Actually, there is something I wanted to talk to you about regarding an OOBE I had. It was very brief. I was dreaming first and then I woke up. There was a sound like it was raining loudly in my head and I don't know how but pulled myself away from where I was, seemingly getting out of my body...

Vision was fragmented like a glass containing the image of my room had been shattered and I couldn't stay in one location...constantly moving to and fro and had the sensation of spinning slowly as I moved. No perceived body...just vision moving about with a couple of mini-teleports here and there. what I mean by this is going from or being at a particular location and then suddenly being at another without covering any distance. I'm not even sure if it was the visional sense that let me know I was now at a different location...I just knew. Suddenly I stopped in front of the window in my room and I could see more clearly now...vision was less fragmented...suddenly I was flung from that location a few feet away but, when I looked at the location where I had been, in front of the window, I saw a transparent human body inside another transparent body inside another transparent body inside another transparent body inside another transparent body inside another transparent body etc., somewhat stationary a few inches above the floor and seemed to be gradually forming...then perspective was back in the physical body and my legs felt heavy. I had to move slowly.

I would never imagine an OOBE experience like the madness I experienced and that doesn't happen in 2nd phase. It was too out of control!!!

[Volgerle]

My point of perspective at the beginning of the experience was a millimeter or less away from the chair leg... I interpreted it as a massive white obelisk or wall. When faced with a normal sized chair leg I felt it was hundreds of feet high... pulling back away from the 'wall' allowed me to see it in its entirity.  Many similar experiences has led me to come to a conclusion that when in 1st I am a point. A tiny point of focus that can navigate around 3D space. Whatever it is it is merely a perception of awareness... not a fragment of self. A directed awareness.

From this one, just a hypothesis: could 'Phasing' result in 'being point of awareness' (and thus be a little nearer to Remote Viewing practice) as opposed to 'classic vibration OBEs' which result in self-perception in a 'body'? I remember that when I read accounts by phasers that they hardly ever report on their bodies / body-self-awareness - unlike classic OBEs.
So this is just an idea. For me, it is not about the other being better or 'more true' than the other. Just trying to find a way to find some distinction of the 'techniques' and (obviously related) reality views (belief systems?) regarding to experiences/results attained, although I think there is more common ground than distinctions.

(You see, I'm on a fence here, I actually support both views, classic and phasing, since for me they are just two sides of the same reality coin, and just 'metaphors' of (self-chosen) reality experience).

[Bedeekin]

I can see where you're coming from but from my perspective you may have a few things mixed up...

I always use the classic vibrational state/Sleep Paralysis method and use this as a springboard for both types... I use different separation/realisation methods to get different phases.

I thought phasing gave rise to full body perception like AP and (to a lesser degree) Lucid Dreams. I'm sure Xanth can answer that. From merely reading 'phase entry' experiences they are the same species.

When I enter 1st phase (RTZ or whatever) it is my mental focus or rather a Remote Focused Awareness that is being directed outside the physical. I would posit that Remote viewing is a subtle connection to this Remote Focused Awareness, rather than the 'Phase' or 'VS' instigated Focus 2.

Maybe phasing can be used for RTZ exploration. Maybe Remote Viewing is Phasing to RTZ.

[Xanth]

I thought phasing gave rise to full body perception like AP and (to a lesser degree) Lucid Dreams. I'm sure Xanth can answer that. From merely reading 'phase entry' experiences they are the same species.

You're correct.  Phasing gives rise to a full body perception.  You're fully "there", in the environment, experiencing it just as you are experiencing the physical reality frame right now.

Whether you have the perception of a body or not is completely irrelevant. 

You could be a point of consciousness experiencing that other reality frame... or you could be just as you see yourself right now (with a full body) experiencing that reality frame.  Hell, you could be a floating hand or arm, and it wouldn't matter.  Having a "body" isn't more or less validating as the other. 

To tie this into the subject, the difference between a Classic OBE and Phasing...
The difference is one of perception and perspective.  That's all.  There are no fundamental differences between the two.

[Astral316]

You could be a point of consciousness experiencing that other reality frame... or you could be just as you see yourself right now (with a full body) experiencing that reality frame.  Hell, you could be a floating hand or arm, and it wouldn't matter.  Having a "body" isn't more or less validating as the other.

Agreed. I recently discovered I can percieve a body from the poc perspective by simply focusing on it, and will conversely fall into the poc perspective if I initiate flight/place my focus on the environment.

[Bedeekin]

Agreed also... I quite frequently assume the shape and form of animals... especially a dog or quadraped. I use this for running around... I grab the ground and pull myself along.

The difference between classic OOBE and Phasing is simply SP in my opinion. From what I can gather, one involves experiencing SP the other doesn't.

I shall have to give phasing a serious go... then at least I can have a basis for comparison.

[Summerlander]

I have phased by accident once. I found that I was gradually improving the focus of the environment that had enveloped me as opposed to when I separate from the body post a vibrational peak to find that the environment is already very much vivid and crisp or vision is either smudged or completelt dark. Sometimes, in the method that I usually employ, which is the one involving SP/VS, I separate into darkness but can feel objects around me. I touch them and the environment comes to light.

[Astral316]

Agreed also... I quite frequently assume the shape and form of animals... especially a dog or quadraped. I use this for running around... I grab the ground and pull myself along.

Haha, gotta try that sometime..

[Volgerle]

... the method that I usually employ, which is the one involving SP/VS, I separate into darkness but can feel objects around me. I touch them and the environment comes to light.

Thanks, good hint, I will try this as I have also probs with exit blindness a few times. I think I remember once touching sth (a kind of outside lantern) and then light came on, too, but it only happened once.

[WASD]

Thanks for all the replies I feel that i have a better understanding of it now and what I do need more of is personal experience.

[Pauli2]

Summerlander, Bedeekin, et al.

Here is an experience which, to me, could be a kind of description of the _not_ IN/OUT of body concept. It's an image of the Disk related to the world. Campbell fans might call it a metaphor. It still doesn't invalidate that we very well could be IN our bodies in the physical, as Ginny's story could be interpreted either way.

Here, the post by Ginny -> http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/a_fireside_chat-t2965.0.html;msg118694#msg118694

I hope that example makes my take on this matter more clear. Blind belief is not my thing, you see.