Does reality matter?

[astralspinner]

There have been a few discussions lately about that old chestnut "OOBEs are just vivid dreams". Nothing new there, but it got me wondering. . .

If you concluded, based on all available information/experience/etc that OOBEs really WERE just vivid lucid dreams: Would you loose interest in having them?

I can't say I would. When I look at the various things I have on my "wish list", it mostly doesn't matter at all whether it's "all in your head" or a genuine other-realms experience.

When OOB, you can fly. You can enter the worlds contained in interesting pictures. You can even enter worlds of fantasy. You can have amazing experiences. You can create anything you imagine. You can heal and improve yourself. None of these would suffer if it were all down to dreams and the placebo effect. You'd still have experienced it.

Just a thought. Mostly, when cynics play the "Just a dream" card, we try to trump it with "No it isn't", which tends to lead to a long and pointless argument.

If they instead met with "So what?" they'd give up and go away a lot faster

[Veccolo]

If you concluded, based on all available information/experience/etc that OOBEs really WERE just vivid lucid dreams: Would you loose interest in having them?

No. It would imo be stupid to loose interest in them only because they might be dreams (which I actually believe). The only thing which counts are the benefits those experiences have.

I can't say I would. When I look at the various things I have on my "wish list", it mostly doesn't matter at all whether it's "all in your head" or a genuine other-realms experience.

I agree, though it might matter to those who use OOBEs/APs to uncover the secrets of the universe (which is imo pointless, considering the subjectivity of those experiences).

When OOB, you can fly. You can enter the worlds contained in interesting pictures. You can even enter worlds of fantasy. You can have amazing experiences. You can create anything you imagine. You can heal and improve yourself. None of these would suffer if it were all down to dreams and the placebo effect. You'd still have experienced it.

Indeed, indeed.

[Frank]

Hello:

People who say that obe's are "vivid dreams" are correct, but usually for all the wrong reasons. I would suggest that first people should find out what a "dream" is exactly before making any kind of comparison. Otherwise people lead themselves into the engagement of the action of making a comparison against an unknown quantity. Which is a bit illogical I may say.

A dream is an objective interpretation of a person's engagement within subjective reality. So in wider terms what's the difference between that and an obe? I can't see any.

Yours,
Frank

[Nostic]

If you concluded, based on all available information/experience/etc that OOBEs really WERE just vivid lucid dreams: Would you loose interest in having them?

I think I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. For me, it's all about investigation. Do the people who say that it's just a dream even understand the nature of reality and Truth? I myself need to understand these things in much greater depth, because, through much contemplation, I realize that I don't know much of anything at all. How much of our knowledge is based on bits and pieces of information? based on our environment? on how we grew up? or what others have told us is true? In the human condition, how objective are we even capable of being?
We live in a world of subjectivity. How is what we call reality that much different from what we call a dream? Do we even remotely understand the nature and depth of the mind? Couldn't it be argued that all of existence is all in your mind? Just a dream on a large scale?
There are so many questions and you have so many people willing to dismiss things they have little or no experience with.

[mactombs]

In my (so far limited) experience, regular life is just a not-so-vivid OBE. I guess the OBE term doesn't really make sense there, but all these terms are kinda inaccurate I find.

[Xetrov]

...it mostly doesn't matter at all whether it's "all in your head" or a genuine other-realms experience.

Why does it have to be either the one or the other, why can't it be both?

[Frank]

Perhaps the truth is it is neither.

Yours,
Frank

[FreeChile]

It appears to me that the "is just a dream" criticism is not based on the dream vs. reality aspect of things. Instead, it attacks the value of these experiences in connection with anything spiritual.  If someone were to say "hay I saw an alien in a dream," it is very implicit that the experience is of less value than if the person said "hay I had a vision of an alien today."  So when labeling these experiences dreams, the critics are questioning its intrinsic value.

Even in the highly material world that we live in, we find that the ability to control and use dreams is of great value.  So you see, the question is not really about the value of dreams.  Instead, it is a very old debate.  It is about whether or not there is something beyond the physical.

So to say that it is just a dream is the same as saying that it is your imagination, or that it is because of the drugs you're taking, or because your crazy, and on and on...  It is a simple disbelief in something beyond.

[Vincent]

True interest comes from passion.
You either have that or not, no labeling of what we call truth changes that.
Your experiences are of value to you or not, if a name labeling can change that u where never really interested at all.

I think it happens that ppl label certain dream stages experiences as an obe, or have an obe and label it as a dream.
But if thats really such a great thing?


I myself like it more when someone says...i experienced that as a an obe.
Or...i experienced that as a dream, instead of telling me that was an obe of that was a dream.
Because you then say what you have experienced is more important then sticking a truth label on it.
But thats just my personal view on things,
what you let free you dont have to defend.
We only defend our truth when we think we hold it in our hands.
When we let it free theres nothing to defend.
And our experiences wont loose colour or flavor from that.
It still keeps its value.

So for me it wouldnt matter.

[Tombo]

It would matter for me, cause I would make different use of it. If I know for sure that I can perceive other realms during OBE I would make up different goals then knowing it is all in my head.
It wouldn't stop my interest but it would change it. It would alter my interpretation of the experiences.
I actually find it pretty odd that you guys don't care about it! I mean I can see from you are coming from, "The experience itself is what counts"
But I myself want to know as much about reality as possible and that includes knowing if I make up something myself or not.

[Frank]

Hello:

I have no problem, for example, with being accused of it all being a product of my imagination. Personally, I don't know what other faculty it could be a product of, lol. The only bit I have trouble understanding is the accusation part. But I always put that down to people reflecting their lack of understanding upon me. Which is their problem, of course, not mine.

I think people should try to understand more the vital role faculties such as the imagination play in the wider scheme of things. We create ALL our reality, physical or otherwise. The imagination plays a vital role in this. Quite simply, if you can't imagine it then you can't create it, and that applies across the board. So everything we create is a product of our imagination.

This art is still too influenced by all the old religious and mystical teachings, IMO. But I think when people generally start realising that all reality is "real" then classic questions such as, "Was this real or just a dream" will simply fade away. As the Major rightly points out, the only problem with the phrase "just a dream" is the word "just". This of course touches on the good points expressed by FreeChile in that it often comes down to a question of the devaluing of the experiences, either within your own Self or becoming immersed in the situation of having others try to do that for you.

The simple fact is, there is no part of our reality that is not real. Moreover, no reality is any more or any less real than any other. It is simply a question of perspective. When a person has the ability to become totally immersed in another realm of reality, then this physical realm becomes just as "dreamlike" and "unreal" as all the other realms look to someone not so proficient.

The physical only looks as real as it does because it captures our focus to an extreme extent. I can now withdraw my awareness, for example, even while walking down the street, so it appears like I take a "step back" from the front-line reality. As such it all starts becoming very dreamlike.

Yours,
Frank

[Tayesin]

It would matter for me, cause I would make different use of it. If I know for sure that I can perceive other realms during OBE I would make up different goals then knowing it is all in my head.
It wouldn't stop my interest but it would change it. It would alter my interpretation of the experiences.
I actually find it pretty odd that you guys don't care about it! I mean I can see from you are coming from, "The experience itself is what counts"
But I myself want to know as much about reality as possible and that includes knowing if I make up something myself or not.

Hi,
Excellent researcher's values you have Tombo.

When you are making the scene and actors, you are creating by thought...  and thought is Energy.  Noticing whether it is taking an effort on your behalf to create it, tells us that it is only our creation.

Stopping the effort and relaxing to be an observer, enjoying what comes along no matter what it appears to be..  without expectations, will show you what IS there.  

This will apply to all and any theories about creating realities from inner emotional issues, simple mind chatter, etc.

[Xetrov]

Stopping the effort and relaxing to be an observer, enjoying what comes along no matter what it appears to be..  without expectations, will show you what IS there.

Effort means conscious thought in this case. But as we all know dreams can be largely attributed to an unconscious cause. So when we stop the effort and relax, who is to say that what we experience without effort does not derive from our (consciously or sub-conscious) mind?

The larger question behind this all is, is there something like a "reality" behind our subjective experiences, and if there is such "stuff" that is not created by ourselves (consciously or unconsciously), what can we know about it?

We create ALL our reality, physical or otherwise. The imagination plays a vital role in this.

Do you mean that according to you, all reality is a product of our imagination, and that nothing (even in physical reality as we call it) exists that we cannot imagine or have not imagined? Do you believe there is an objective reality (or "ding an sich" as German philosophers called it) behind all our experiences at all?

[Tombo]

Hello:

I have no problem, for example, with being accused of it all being a product of my imagination. Personally, I don't know what other faculty it could be a product of, lol. The only bit I have trouble understanding is the accusation part. But I always put that down to people reflecting their lack of understanding upon me. Which is their problem, of course, not mine.

My intention was not to accuse you, but to answer astralspinners question, so I'm glad that is no problem to you  
You are indeed right when saying all being a product of the imagination faculty, but to you believe there is something else behind it that is being reflected by our imagination "objective reality" or do you mean that there is no such thing. The latter would be quite a mind blowing concept, I might add.

I think people should try to understand more the vital role faculties such as the imagination play in the wider scheme of things. We create ALL our reality, physical or otherwise. The imagination plays a vital role in this. Quite simply, if you can't imagine it then you can't create it, and that applies across the board. So everything we create is a product of our imagination.

I can only create what I can imagine, thats true. But can I only perceive what I create? I sounds to me as if you were saying that all our reality is created by ourselves which, in a way, would mean that there  is nobody else around.....   Could you explain why I come to such a statement?

The simple fact is, there is no part of our reality that is not real. Moreover, no reality is any more or any less real than any other. It is simply a question of perspective. When a person has the ability to become totally immersed in another realm of reality, then this physical realm becomes just as "dreamlike" and "unreal" as all the other realms look to someone not so proficient.

I see what you mean. Lets forget the word "real" lets look at it this way:
From my personnel experience I can not stop the sun from raising in the morning. But I can stop the sun from raising in my dream. So there is a difference. If OBE's are a imagination I should be able to change them in anyway I want If I'm experienced enough. If they have a "real" component then somethings will not be in my control. This may be the view of a unexperienced Nobby.....Correct me if I'm wrong......

The physical only looks as real as it does because it captures our focus to an extreme extent. I can now withdraw my awareness, for example, even while walking down the street, so it appears like I take a "step back" from the front-line reality. As such it all starts becoming very dreamlike.

If I cut off your finger in the physical (sorry, couldn't think of a more friendly example) You'll have to live with it, in a dream you don't.

Hi,
Excellent researcher's values you have Tombo.

When you are making the scene and actors, you are creating by thought... and thought is Energy. Noticing whether it is taking an effort on your behalf to create it, tells us that it is only our creation.

Stopping the effort and relaxing to be an observer, enjoying what comes along no matter what it appears to be.. without expectations, will show you what IS there.

This will apply to all and any theories about creating realities from inner emotional issues, simple mind chatter, etc.

I'll try to be a good explorer, but I guess, I need more experience..........

One may assume that imagination and reality operate as seperate faculties in daily life. They don`t, even not in terms of very real and direct effects of the imagination on ``physical`` reality.

So you would say, If we imagine the sun to disappear with enough "energy" then it will do so?
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[Tombo]

Hello?!

[Nostic]

Hello:

I have no problem, for example, with being accused of it all being a product of my imagination. Personally, I don't know what other faculty it could be a product of, lol. The only bit I have trouble understanding is the accusation part. But I always put that down to people reflecting their lack of understanding upon me. Which is their problem, of course, not mine.

My intention was not to accuse you, but to answer astralspinners question, so I'm glad that is no problem to you  
You are indeed right when saying all being a product of the imagination faculty, but to you believe there is something else behind it that is being reflected by our imagination "objective reality" or do you mean that there is no such thing. The latter would be quite a mind blowing concept, I might add.

I think people should try to understand more the vital role faculties such as the imagination play in the wider scheme of things. We create ALL our reality, physical or otherwise. The imagination plays a vital role in this. Quite simply, if you can't imagine it then you can't create it, and that applies across the board. So everything we create is a product of our imagination.

I can only create what I can imagine, thats true. But can I only perceive what I create? I sounds to me as if you were saying that all our reality is created by ourselves which, in a way, would mean that there  is nobody else around.....   Could you explain why I come to such a statement?

The simple fact is, there is no part of our reality that is not real. Moreover, no reality is any more or any less real than any other. It is simply a question of perspective. When a person has the ability to become totally immersed in another realm of reality, then this physical realm becomes just as "dreamlike" and "unreal" as all the other realms look to someone not so proficient.

I see what you mean. Lets forget the word "real" lets look at it this way:
From my personnel experience I can not stop the sun from raising in the morning. But I can stop the sun from raising in my dream. So there is a difference. If OBE's are a imagination I should be able to change them in anyway I want If I'm experienced enough. If they have a "real" component then somethings will not be in my control. This may be the view of a unexperienced Nobby.....Correct me if I'm wrong......

The physical only looks as real as it does because it captures our focus to an extreme extent. I can now withdraw my awareness, for example, even while walking down the street, so it appears like I take a "step back" from the front-line reality. As such it all starts becoming very dreamlike.

If I cut off your finger in the physical (sorry, couldn't think of a more friendly example) You'll have to live with it, in a dream you don't.

Hi,
Excellent researcher's values you have Tombo.

When you are making the scene and actors, you are creating by thought... and thought is Energy. Noticing whether it is taking an effort on your behalf to create it, tells us that it is only our creation.

Stopping the effort and relaxing to be an observer, enjoying what comes along no matter what it appears to be.. without expectations, will show you what IS there.

This will apply to all and any theories about creating realities from inner emotional issues, simple mind chatter, etc.

I'll try to be a good explorer, but I guess, I need more experience..........

One may assume that imagination and reality operate as seperate faculties in daily life. They don`t, even not in terms of very real and direct effects of the imagination on ``physical`` reality.

So you would say, If we imagine the sun to disappear with enough "energy" then it will do so?
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[/quote]

Physical reality is dense to the point where it cannot be easily manipulated by the mind. That's #1. #2, what we experience as our physical reality is part of our collective consciousness. This means that our environment is very stable because it is held in place by all of our collective minds. In a dream, you can do pretty much anything because you only have your mind to play with, and you're not dealing with the dense physical world.

The points you make about the finger and the sun... I believe this all ties into spiritual mastery. Do you have to live with the cut finger because that's just the way it is, or is it because there is some insight, knowledge, or ability that you have yet to attain?

You ask good questions.

[Mustardseed]

Hi Tombo
Yes you do ask good questions. I have asked many of them myself ha. I can not tell you how it works but will attempt to explain how it appear to work. Mind you this is only my opinion and not fact in any way. The best example would be to imagine yourself a child. All though occupying the same physical realm as an adult, a child perceives a different reality. His world is finite, distances and time is distorted and fears are (to an adult) often unreasonable. Show him a magic trick and he believes it is real, show him a movie he lives in it. He believes in Santa as well. As he grows his world expands, and re starts to realize that things he used to consider facts are no longer certain and things he never understood start to make sense. People he thought to be his enemies (teachers and maybe parents?) become his friends and helpers, and often the bad boy company he thought so great (pride and ego?) emerges to be the opposite. The allegory is a picture of a change not only in physical dimensions but in spiritual and emotional ones as well.

It is as if he has been watching his life through a dark window only seeing glimpses of reality, but now he sees them in great detail, as if he has only been shown a part of life, but now he is face to face with reality, before he thought as a child reasoned as a child believed as a child but now he has put childish things away and sees the world as it really is, much bigger than he thought possible.

Regards Mustardseed

[Tombo]

Thanks for the compliments.....  I might not be a good projector but at least I have good questions

So, I have one more question........

Physical reality is dense to the point where it cannot be easily manipulated by the mind. That's #1. #2, what we experience as our physical reality is part of our collective consciousness. This means that our environment is very stable because it is held in place by all of our collective minds. In a dream, you can do pretty much anything because you only have your mind to play with, and you're not dealing with the dense physical world.

You guys keep telling this but still I don't completely understand what you mean. I'll try to explain what my problem is:
There are physical things that only I know, facts that only my consciousness is aware of. For example I cut my finger. Nobody else knows about it. So, from what you are saying, I would conclude that it should be as easy as in a dream to instantly heal my finger. Actually it should even be easier cause collective consciousness (my family...) expects the finger to be intact. But it's not!
How do you explain that?

[Veccolo]

Another example would be religion. There are how many religous people? Most likely much more than 50% of world population. So we have at least more than three billion people (of which 2 billion are christians) who believe in supernatural beings in some way.

If the theory that we create all of the physical things with our consciousness is true, why haven't I met one of the countless gods yet? Considering the majority of christians we should see some serious evidence of god and angels in the biblical sense.

I'm normally not one who thinks, "I didn't see it, so it's not true". In this case, though, this kind of thinking seems valid.