High IQ OBE Correlation?

[Kristen]

Hi Chris -

Just wanted to say that your observation is a pretty interesting one...

I always have run across the idea that rational intelligence is counterproductive to spiritual intelligence... but to me, the awareness aspect you mention throws a new light on that idea.

I don't know for certain what my IQ is - I don't know about those internet IQ tests, how reliable they are.

[Chris]

Kristen,

I'm not sure if all internet IQ tests are reliable.  However, there are a few that are recommended by sites that specialize in psychology.
I've taken both paper tests and internet tests and my test scores are pretty close on both.  Of course the results of my experiments are not conclusive since propper controls were not in place.  This would have to be tested in a better environment.  However, it's an interesting test to do on yourself.  I'd say if you use an internet test on one day, you should use a similar internet test on another day.  Don't go paper one day and internet another day.

To find a good internet IQ test I would suggest just looking up the words "IQ" and "Psychology" on google.  Find a site that specializes in psychological evaluation material and use the IQ tests they recommend.

Thanks for the response.

Chris

[Chris]

Kristen,

One other point.  I've noticed... at least in my own limited experience... that many people who like to pretend to be very rational, and logical, don't have very high IQ's.  In my humble opinion, the image of rationalism is a cloak for insecurity and fear... an unwillingness to become aware of things that would shake the foundations of your belief structure.  We can use words to rationalize any belief.  The moment we forget about rationalizing things and just try to "see","feel", and process input from our senses is when true awareness begins... when we stop trying to interpret and just listen.  

For example, let's take a jigsaw puzzle.  You mix up all the pieces and give one piece each to several people.  There are some people who might receive a piece of the puzzle and because they are afraid of not knowing, or because of some previous belief system, they immediately decide they know what the whole picture is.  They can debate and rationalize how this one puzzle piece clearly shows they are right and do it endlessly and brilliantly.  They completely ignore the fact that they don't have the whole picture and that there are more pieces to the puzzle.  Then, there are people who say..."hmmmm... I don't quite know what this is.  Give me another piece.... and another... and another... hmmm it might be this, or could be something else... give me another".  They are the ones that are listening... the ones who are truly aware.  Yes, they may not be able to give authoritative or conclusive answers that make people feel secure.  They may not be able to give impressively rationalized long winded speaches... but... they are the ones who are truly gaining an accurate picture of the whole... the great mystery... the great puzzle.  That ability to listen, feel, and process without presumptuous assumption is what I believe translates into awareness and ultimately higher IQ's.  Of course, it's only a theory.  We'll see what the data says.

[]
Chris

[Tisha]

Chris, maybe "brain performance/mediative-awareness correlation" is a better description of what you were trying to measure?  Meditative states DO make your brain work better; many people have found this to be true, and it's been measured/proven in labs.  That's what all those "performance tapes" are about.

I think it would be hard to test the relationship between OBE and IQ . . . most people OBE sporadically, if they do it at all.

Many moons ago, a teacher told my mom I had a high IQ.  I think I was 7 years old.  Now that I'm all "growed-up" I'm afraid to take an IQ test, lest I discover that I'm really dumb.  But I graduated from college release laude, phi beta kappa, tops in my major, bla bla bla.  I OBE sporadically. I like to think I'm smart.  My boyfriend thinks I'm a smartass, though.  He's probably right.

Frank OBEs frequently (if I may speak on his behalf), and considering the fact that he's a scientist I can say he's a pretty brainy dude.

However, I think there are an awful lot of ways of measuring "smart."  IQ isn't everything.  You can be a dull bulb and still enjoy meditative states and spiritual bliss.  And what really causes OBE?  Focus, I think.  Must one have a high IQ to be able to focus effectively?  I don't really know!  Must someone have a certain level of braininess to even want to take on the monumental task of developing one's perception/focus/mind/etc. to reach OBE/Astral states?  To even grasp the idea of such a thing?  Again, I give up.

Interesting topic . . . I wonder what research is already out there.

[Chris]

Tisha,

Your comments are well spoken. However, no, I think I do mean a correllation between IQ and OBE.  I see the brain only as a transformer of energy and intelligence.  If a brain is damaged or not functioning right, a person may on the outside appear to us to be mentally challenged.  When that same person goes to sleep at night they may actually be quite brilliant and intelligent in the astral.  However, they come back to the physical body/plane and a lot of that intelligence gets filtered by a damaged transformer.  An analogy would be two very intelligent people who don't speak the same language.  They can sit there all they like and talk to one another gesturing wildly but the other person will not have an idea of the other persons intelligence until something intelligent is done or spoken in a way that is commonly understood.  The IQ test then, would NOT be a valid indicator of intelligence, but rather a possible indicator of how much of the souls intelligence and/or awareness has been successfully transformed into the physical body.  Can the transformation be improved?  yes... through meditation.  Can the amount of transfomation be measured in any finite terms?  I don't know.  that's what I was thinking might be an interesting correllation to IQ.  If you've taken an IQ test before you know that it doesn't present particularly difficult problems to solve.  It doesn't measure KNOWLEDGE perse, it is designed to measure an individual's awareness of relationships between things... their ability to distinguish and see... not what they KNOW in terms of facts.  I can relate to your being scared to take an IQ test.  For a long time I was scared to also.  I have always felt like I didn't fit in with 90% of the population.  That is, I can be social and act like I'm fitting in, but I don't really feel comfortable or like I resonate with most people.  When I was young I always thought that was because I was a retard or something.  However, I grew out of that and realized that a lot of the time I can just see things that other's can't.  Finally, I decided to take and IQ test and was very surprised that I scored so high.  The test said that I scored higher than 99.98 percent of the population.  That blew me away and then I realized that maybe my feeling different when I was younger (and even now) might be related to that.  I also got to thinking that maybe my own extensive OBE experiences may be related to that somehow. It doesn't make me better than anyone else in terms of value, nor does it make me worse. I still do things that are quite stupid... perhaps more stupid than many others who score lower.  What the IQ tests seem to test though (by the questions they ask) is how a aware a person is... their ability to "see" things and their relationships.  For example, I can say with complete honesty that I truly suck at math.  However, when presented with the following question the answer came to my head immediately:

What is the next number in the following series?:2,6,18,

Why? because it was not testing my math skills but my ability to distinguish the relationships between the numbers so as to determine the next number in the series.  The IQ test, scores based on how quickly you can answer the questions correctly.

So, while I think you are right that the IQ test does not measure every aspect of intelligence or knowledge, it may be a very good test of awareness.  Along those lines I was wondering if it might provide a good indicator for people attempting to achieve OBE's with more regularity and control.  They could take the IQ test as a baseline, and then after several months of active meditation and focus to increase both their energy and awareness, take it again and see if it's higher... and can a baseline IQ be determined as a good indicator for when people start having more regular and controlled OBE's/Astral experiences?

In any event, you seem like an intelligent person.  I don't think you have anything to worry about in taking the IQ test.

I can imagine many people would be reluctant to post their IQ's for all to see.  Some may even feel it's some sort of elitist test.  That isn't my objective.  I'm just attempting to see if there are any correllations to high quality/control OBE/Astral experiences and high IQ and I can't do that having only myself as a participant.  If anyone is squeamish about posting their IQ openly, please feel free to send me a private message.  I could then post the results without names attached to them.  Thanks to any and all for participating.  

chris

[cainam_nazier]

I do not think that it is intelligence per say that is linked to ones ability to grasp the concept of OBE's or spiritualism.  I think a closer relation is ones ability for abstract thought.  It is a different kind of intelligence.  
 I would actually wager a guess that pure intelligence is a by-product of abstract thinking and a search for spiritualism.  I say this because I have noted that most people who are spiritually minded are on a constant search for truth, knowladge, ect.  They tend to put more into learning and often on a wider base than the average individual, because thier search for spiritualism covers a much broader range of subject than what is taught in school. Math, science, history, phylosophy, art, mythology, phsycology, medicine, physics, chemistry, and the list continues.  There is a higher rate of absorbtion of information because it is a willfull persuit and not forced teaching.
  There is a difference between pure, raw intelligence and abstract thinking.  For the most part some one who is further to the side of pure inteeligence on the scale is less likely to be on a spiritual path because they believe in and only experience the physical world.  Any thing out side of that simply does not exist, because it can not be proved, and there for can not be believed.  They for the most part want to see the proof that some thing works before trying it.

[Chris]

cainam_nazier,

Interesting comments.  However, many of the thoughts you expressed contained words that are not clearly defined, at least in my mind.  The word intelligence can be interpreted and measured in many different ways. The word abstract should also be defined.  What do YOU mean when you use the word "abstract", and when you use the word "intelligence"?

For example you stated,"For the most part some one who is further to the side of pure inteeligence on the scale is less likely to be on a spiritual path because they believe in and only experience the physical world. Any thing out side of that simply does not exist, because it can not be proved, and there for can not be believed. They for the most part want to see the proof that some thing works before trying it."

What is pure intelligence?  To me true intelligence is awareness.  A person with pure awareness in my opinion would be supremely spiritual.  Now, if by referring to people who use pure intelligence you mean people who have to rationalize everything, that's a different story.  Rationalization and intelligence are not the same thing in my personal opinion.  If intelligence means awareness, the more aware a person becomes, they will naturally become aware of other senses of input... the spiritual senses etc.  In terms of wanting to see proof, that isn't a problem either.  None of my spiritual experiences can be proven to another.  Proof comes in the form of personal experience.  Once an individual begins to experience something for themselves... once they become aware... proof in physical terms becomes less important.

Chris

[cainam_nazier]

Ah, but an IQ test does not test awareness.  They test IQ, the abitlity to think, book smarts, and problem solving...none test awareness.  

There are a couple of different IQ tests depending on what you want to test for.

There is pure or raw intelligence, basically how much stuff you know, mathmatics, science, economics, ect.  Commonly referred to in schools as an aptitude test.  Testing how much you learned.

Abstract thought, problem solving falls under this catagory, so does probability, and the ability to see relationships between objects or numbers, also known as "Thinking out side the box."

Does that help understand my thought process?

[clandestino]

Hi Chris. Going back to your first point :

"So, I took an IQ test on my lowest day, and then when I hit a really high day I took another IQ test, and it was much higher."

I don't believe that there is necessarily a correlation between IQ and OBE ability, but maybe there is a correlation between "high IQ" days and OBE activity ? this correlation would explain why many people with low IQs might be able to project - they are experiencing OBE's on peak days.

[astralspinner]

I'd agree with Clan - the way you describe it, on days when you're not very energetic, you don't have as  many OBEs and you don't test as being as smart.

Well, that's exactly what you'd expect: The brain doesn't work as well when it's tired as it does when it isn't. You need energy to concentrate, and it's concentration that affects your IQ score. And you need energy to have an OBE, that's why so many people recommend chakra work.

So by comparing OBEs with IQ, you're actually testing the same thing in two different ways.

A metaphor: Imagine you're looking for a bright torch. A torch will shine brighter if it has more batteries. But it'll also shine brighter if you have fresh batteries instead of run-down ones.

So you can't say "This torch is brighter than that one, so it must have more batteries" because they could have the same number, just one is run down and the other is fresh.

A torch with lots of batteries that are rather flat will have a dull glow that could make you think it only has a few batteries.

I hope that makes sense..

[James S]

In a discussion similar to this some time ago, it had been noted that a high IQ is more readily linked with ones tendency to question the "facts" that are presented to us. Putting that in a spiritual context, the tendency to question traditional religions or doctorines. You are more likely to find people of a high IQ around sites like this because they are more inclined to seek out answers that are traditionally not given out by the churches, because well informed and intelligent followers tend to be harder to control.

As to a more direct link between IQ and the ability to OBE, trance, etc, I think that might be looking in the wrong direction. IQ is only a measure of intelligence potential, not application. There is another test though that I read about some years back in an Omni magazine that could be more directly linked - an IQ2 test - Intuition Quotient. This tests our ability to think outside of normal parameters  - to "feel" our way to a conclusion.

It still seems to be correct though to say that if you're having a bad day, none of your brain functions seem to be able to get it together. People talk about having bad hair days, I tend to have bad brain days.

James.

[Chris]

I appreciate everyone's thoughts on this issue and I don't mean to be curt, but we can all theorize about whether it does or doesn't correlate all day long.  what i'm looking for is data.  Simply put, neither your opinions nor my theories can be proven without the data.  So, would anyone like to send me their IQ scores as well as a general description of their frequency of OBE as well as general level of control and/or ability to remember their experiences (or level of lucidity?)

Sincerely,

Chris

[Ash]

my IQ is 140 and I have an astral experience around once a month or so on average....

ash

[Chris]

Thanks for posting and indulging my curiosity Ash!  Again, feel free to post your data to me in private if you don't want all to see your score.  I understand this isn't scientific and it doesn't have proper controls in place, but it's a nice preliminary survey for me.

[Chris]

cainam,

I think I understand what you are saying.  However, I still feel I respectfully disagree.  In my own humble opinion, the crux of what is truly being measured is indeed awareness.  Perhaps I am wrong.  Yet this is my reasoning: In order to determine the relationship between any two or more numbers, symbols,objects, feelings,emotions etc, one must first be AWARE of said symbols.  Everything we experience in this physical lifetime is fed to us in symbols whether they be visual, auditory, tactile, emotional, etc.  For example, in order to determine the relationship between a series of numbers... in order to deduce the next logical number in the sequence, one must first be aware visually of the symbol itself.  Once aware visually, one must then have the capacity to understand or be aware of the significance or meaning of said symbol... say the number 2... that the number 2 represents 2 distinct units of something... anything.

Now, I could teach children multiplication tables all day long and they could memorize the results.  This is not the deepest level of awareness with regard to the number symbols.  The deepest level is when the individual becomes aware of the concept that 2 represents 2 separate units and to multiply them against another number say 4 is to add 2 separate units four times.  Once they become AWARE of this underlying principle, they can then solve just about ANY multiplication problem through reasoning instead of just spitting out a memorized answer from a table. It is indeed a much deeper level of awareness of the symbols and what they represent.  This is why the IQ tests do not test for math multiplication problems.  You can memorize math table results without being aware of the number's true significance, however to solve relational problems based on numbers you must be aware of the significance of each number, what they represent, and how they might be manipulated.  ONLY in this way might you deduce relationships between them and solve the problem of what the next number in the sequence is.  The same proves true for spatial problems.  The IQ test measures a persons awareness of what the spatial symbols truly represent instead of how well they can plug into any formula.  Also, to clarify, I am speaking of the standard IQ tests used by psychologist to determine "intelligence", not school aptitude tests.

Chris

[Chris]

...hmmmm... uh... burp.

[Leyla]

My IQ is 142 and that's a few points above genius level.
I OBE about once a month with lucidity and am able to direct my itinerary.
Honestly, I always suspected there was a correlation.
If astral travelers are opening up their minds, then why wouldn't that be reflected on an IQ test?

[cainam_nazier]

Okay, after taking several tests my IQ is in the 130's.  However I don't project regularly.  If fact I can count on one hand how many projections I am aware of over the 26 years of my life.  But when I dream, that being few and far between, I am lucid or aware about 90% of the time.


So I still don't know about the corrolation.

[Chris]

Thank you for posting your scores.  It would be interesting if we got someone who posted an IQ below 130 who had OBE's with any regularity or lucidity.  My suspicion was that most (if not all) regular OBE'ers with lucidity and some degree of control would post somewhere above 130.  That would not necessarily mean that people below 130 would not have OBE's (because i believe everyone does), but that those who remember the experience well and bring it back with them into this physical consciousness state would tend to be more aware and have higher IQ's.  Anyway, I very much welcome more posts.  Thank you again.

chris

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone!

Another interesting discussion!  []

I am not at all sure that IQ is related to Astral projection ability.

Intelligence is a fundamental attribute of the individual eternal Spirit, and that being the case, "IQ" would potentially influence Astral projecting capabilities in any lifetime, past, present or future, and I personally do not believe that to be the case at all.

There are many factors which affect Astral projection abilities, many of which are fundamental physical attributes such as state of relaxation - probably the most important physical attribute of them all. Fundamental to Astral projection is the "mind awake, body asleep" trance state. Achieving such a state is clearly not a function of intelligence to the extent that everyone is capable of achieving such a state. Also, Astral projection abilities have been progressively lost over the millenia - the ancients of tens or even hundreds of thousands of years ago, as well as or more highly Spiritual races such as the native Americans, Mayans and many others, seemed to engage in Astral work of one sort or another frequently, and as a part of their culture. Cave paintings around the world, also depict the Astral experiences of the Shaman for the benefit of the rest of the tribe.

So all in all, it is difficult to see where IQ fits into the Astral projection equation per se. Astral projection is the fundamental inheritance of everyone on the planet (and of other planets)- on Earth, the ability has been largely lost to most people and races down through the time, and due largely to increasing emphasis of the material aspects of the physical word, and religious indoctrination.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Leyla]

The astral projection experience is far too spiritually profound to reduce it to: "mind awake, body asleep"

It's almost an insult.

And I don't believe abilities have been "lost" either. Only our industrialized modern culture has rejected them.

I would honestly be surprised if any frequent lucid dreamer/OBE'er tested under 130. Few will admit to it for fear of seeming immodest, puffed-up, or vain.

Not all smart people are spiritual, but most spiritual people I've known were quite smart. Intelligence and spirituality are not mutually exclusive commodities, and they more often than not go hand in hand.  

I have enjoyed being tutored by both a Buddhist Monk and a Native American Shaman, and found both of them to be remarkably, even exceptionally, bright.

[Ash]

a thought:

I think there is most definitely a high correlation between IQ and curiosity. Intelligent people are curious. They want to understand the relationships between things, the reason for things, the underlying structure of reality.

That given, I think that it is much more likely for people of higher intelligence to be interested in astral projection. What more fundamental question is there? Astral projection offers the possibility of direct experience of the structure of the universe.

So, natural abilities being equal, I think it's likely that more intelligent people would be more likely to pursue astral projection with the dedication that it requires for them to master such a skill.

ash

[Chris]

This is great... all very interesting comments... Ash, how would you respond to the fact that my first OBE's were not self-initiated through curiosity?  Rather, they were spontaneous byproducts of my martial arts training in which my teacher's purpose was to teach me to increase my awareness of my internal energy or Qi.  This in particular is one of the reason's I associate increased awareness with Remembered OBE's.  

Chris

[Adrian]

Greetings Leyla!

quote:Originally posted by Leyla

The astral projection experience is far too spiritually profound to reduce it to: "mind awake, body asleep"

I was not reducing Astral projection to those parameters, but rather making the point that "mind awake, body asleep" and in particular deep relaxation are the foundations upon which success in AP rests - and that is regardless of "IQ" which is the topic of this thread.

Similarly, AP is not and simply cannot be the reserve of those with high a high "IQ". Spirituality is the inheritance of each and every member of the human race, regardless of "IQ" or any other faculty.

The point is this - people will be led to AP and other Spiritual pursuits when their time is right, but before they can pursue these activities there are still fundamental disciplines to learn first - unless a person is highly fortunate to be born with such gifts.

I guess it is like going swimming for the first time - a person has to learn to swim first, before they can reach the opposite side of the pool - they cannot simply jump in the water and hope to get there.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Squeek]

Weel... according to an average of all different IQ tests i've taken.... I got a 154.  Yet, I have yet to have any Astral Experiences that I know of.  I don't know if IQ has anything to do with it at all actually, it's just the way you approach the task at hand, this one being astrally projecting.  I have never been able to just focus on one thing, as Music always distracts me (mentioned in the energy development category...post there if you feel the need to help me out :p)

SO! In conclusion, I do not beleive that IQ has much to do with AP at all

~Squeek