Is the OBE world real or imaginary.

[jonnydreamer]

Hi I read a bit about your obe experiences and the way you who practice this commonly agree the world to be. I am a christian and very content on my beliefs as they answer my needs and desires and give me direction for my life. But I have a question about what your general belief as a community is about your astral experiences and life in general.

It seems to me the general concensus of this community is what ever your beliefs and experiences are create your world through your subconscious imagination. So my question is when you are having an OBE through an astral experience is that experience you are having a real authentic place with real being and places you constructed through your sub conscience. Or is that place you are traveling to just imaginary as a result of your subconscious mind? And if so as a community what is real and what is not real to you in body and out? Or is life relatively a purely post modern experience in general with no absolutes at all? Just wondering what this community believes their experiences and life to actually be. Real or subconscious imaginations?

[Lionheart]

It seems to me the general concensus of this community is what ever your beliefs and experiences are create your world through your subconscious imagination. So my question is when you are having an OBE through an astral experience is that experience you are having a real authentic place with real being and places you constructed through your sub conscience. Or is that place you are traveling to just imaginary as a result of your subconscious mind? And if so as a community what is real and what is not real to you in body and out? Or is life relatively a purely post modern experience in general with no absolutes at all? Just wondering what this community believes their experiences and life to actually be. Real or subconscious imaginations?

This is not the consensus on this Forum. What you find with AP is that "intent/thought = action". Meaning, if you find yourself in a SP (Sleep Paralysis) episode or in a good NP (Non Physical) state, you will find that your first thoughts will usually manifest before you.

If you show fear, fearful things you will find. That actually holds true to this physical reality as well.

The biggest difference is in the NPR (Non Physical Realms/Reality), you are pure consciousness. You don't have or need appendages. You are a single point/energy per say. We experience this reality through the use of our senses. Through touch, smell, taste, sound, sight and "other". In the NP if you want or depend on that physical vessel, all it takes is a thought to create it. But when you learn to "shed it", you are opened to so much more.

It's as "real" as this reality is! 

[EscapeVelocity]

It's a great question jonnyd, is it real or just generated from your subconscious?

You get far enough, have enough experiences, and the question begins to lose its own relevance. The question becomes "is the experience teaching me something?" for me, that has become the fundamental determinant.

Doesn't matter where it comes from.

Yes, it is influenced by our individual subconscious...but so what? That's just an artifact of our psychological makeup. There are personal consciousness areas to learn within as well as collective consciousness areas to learn within. And it's by no means perfect, or even close, the quality of what we experience, dependent on us, for a variety of reasons; we are like children learning to walk. We have to expand our thinking as to how learning can be presented to us. Sometimes it came with religious overtones... Maybe to fit within our sociological context at the historical moment. It helps keep us together and advance us to the next stage.

Now, regardless of what historical or religious context people are coming from, too many of us are experiencing the Wider Reality and waking up to an infinitely greater and more beautiful multiverse than was ever before understood.

I won't pretend to persuade you with argument; you have to experience it for yourself.

[jonnydreamer]

So okay. So what you are saying is you are creating a world within your self. Similar to a dream? And you are experiencing that place? Or is it that you are experiencing what a christian might call the spirit realm? Or is it a mix of the spirit realm and the natural realm but you are acting as a spirit entity apart from your body in that realm?

I mean I can understand if you having left you body and are acting in the spirit realm. But if you are working in some kind of subconscious realm within your self. That seems and feels very real like the natural realm. I'm trying to understand if that is real or just a universe your creating within your self that seems real but could in fact is a creation of your own imagination occuring within your self.

I mean i as a christian always thought astral was projecting your spirit out of the natural realm and into the spiritual realm. Where angels, demons, other unusual entities and spirit beings dwell and do their actions. And they also are interacting with the natural world through eccentric spiritual activities.  

I dunno the latter makes perfect sense to me because of my world view. The idea of a subconsious realm we are bringing about through our thoughts im trying to rap my head around. Weather thats a real place or not. I could also imagine you are leaving as a spirit from your body into the invisible spiritual realm and your are actions and abilities there are based on your faith or your "thoughts and belief manifesting".

I mean I believe in an invisible spiritual realm. Im just trying to figure out if thats the place you guys are going or if it is a self made world within your self.

But I can imagine everyone has a variety of views and ways they perceive that experience to be. I wont be attempting it personally as I see I have no need for it in the life I am trying to live as I can interact with the spiritual realm in the natural realm just fine and do not need to disconnect from my body in order to achieve what I am looking for in this life. But I am curious at what exactly is going on in your Astral Projection experiences. Or atleast the different ways you all view what is actually taking place.

[Lionheart]

I wont be attempting it personally as I see I have no need for it in the life I am trying to live as I can interact with the spiritual realm in the natural realm just fine and do not need to disconnect from my body in order to achieve what I am looking for in this life. But I am curious at what exactly is going on in your Astral Projection experiences. Or atleast the different ways you all view what is actually taking place.

Stick around, read the Stickies, they are the threads in BOLD BLUE LETTERS.

But honestly, if you aren't going to attempt to AP at all, there is no way you will know what we are talking about.

You have to experience it, for the only one that can really prove it to you, is you!  

[EscapeVelocity]

You can create a world within yourself and the outside, which is what you are doing right now to some degree,... Or you can learn to connect your world to others to a greater degree, to a Wider Reality, forming connections you haven't previously thought of.

We can get lost forever in the semantics of the discussion.

Just be open to it being greater than we ever thought, however you want to define it.

[Lionheart]

 Forgive me if I seem confused, but didn't you make a post here telling others about your own OBE experience? 
  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_out_of_body_experiences/sunds_phenomenon-t44153.0.html

In it you said "So my experience. Well I was laying in bed on my back and i was just between falling asleep and still awake. I felt my self lift up outta bed and i walked to the bathroom (This either being my dream or or astral i do not know) But it was all so clear and real. I was in my house and everything was the same. I walked to the bathroom and inside the bathroom was a 7-8 foot tall grim reaper with his arms stretched a hooded mask with a greyish face and silver hands and feet. I looked at it then basically went back to where I was laying. It then shot like lightening from the bathroom over top of me and grabbed me by my neck. I am a christian so I told it to go off of me in jesus name in my dream while it was chokeing me. It disapeered and I immediately woke up. I prayed and went back to sleep feeling attacked but safe due to prayer. The end"

Did it seems real to you or was it make believe?

[jonnydreamer]

To that experience. I am not sure if that was real or make believe. Only God knows that. But I have had supernatural experiences that I am sure were very Real and not make believe. But that is a list of many long stories with a dominantly christian context which only prove to enforce my belief in Christ. But as for that particular experience. It was in the grey area. In other words. Weather it was real or not I can not tell.

[jonnydreamer]

Oh and that experience was not self induced. Thats what I said i didnt plan on attempting to achieve OBE. That just kinda sorta happen. Which ultimately led me to this discussion board.

[EscapeVelocity]

Hey!

Hang on to Christ! From what I gather he was a great guy! Great attitude, great outlook! Who could argue with that?

The other guys in the bible... What dimension do you think they were tapping into and trying to interpret? The prophecies, the visions...

Just sayin'...

[jonnydreamer]

Haha I agree the prophets and others had quite a few strange OBE's in the bible. That is not a lie.

[Volgerle]

Maybe the focus level "map" of the Monroe Institute might help you. It is just a map (and not the landscape itself) but it provides some good overview and conceptualisation anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_level

http://www.monroeinstitute.org/resources/overview-of-focus-levels

Yes, there are 'private' areas which are somehow related to your dream world ("dream plane") in the astral / NPR. But there are on "higher" levels the collective areas which are also created by thought (because this is what we do, even down here) but by a collective and hence much more 'stable'. E.g. there's a library where I once was. Pretty stable and "physical". 

As you can see there in the focus level descriptions, the Christian heaven is one of the Belief System Territories, it is surely a good place to be but not the only one, there are many, not all are religious btw.

Here's a more detailed view, too:

http://www.trufax.org/matrix5/segments/gradients.html

Have fun exploring (for yourself!). 

(ps: as regards some 'evidence' about OBEs please see als my signature and the link there)

[Fusions]

Maybe the focus level "map" of the Monroe Institute might help you. It is just a map (and not the landscape itself) but it provides some good overview and conceptualisation anyway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focus_level

http://www.monroeinstitute.org/resources/overview-of-focus-levels

Yes, there are 'private' areas which are somehow related to your dream world ("dream plane") in the astral / NPR. But there are on "higher" levels the collective areas which are also created by thought (because this is what we do, even down here) but by a collective and hence much more 'stable'. E.g. there's a library where I once was. Pretty stable and "physical". 

As you can see there in the focus level descriptions, the Christian heaven is one of the Belief System Territories, it is surely a good place to be but not the only one, there are many, not all are religious btw.

Here's a more detailed view, too:

http://www.trufax.org/matrix5/segments/gradients.html

Have fun exploring (for yourself!). 

(ps: as regards some 'evidence' about OBEs please see als my signature and the link there)

OP, why don't you just project and explore the non physical created by the loving infinite creator

There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio,
Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.
- Hamlet

[Xanth]

Jonnydreamer,
Let me ask you, what do you *know*, for certain, regarding this physical reality and Projection in general?

What do you *know*?

I'm using the word "know" in the direct experiential sense.

What do you personally, directly know.
Realize that I'm not asking what you believe.

[jonnydreamer]

Hmm well that's a very interesting question Xanath. And I will do my best to answer from my experience of life.

Well I know you need food, water and air to survive. I know you need to work and make a living (unless your daddy is rich) if you want to make it in the world. I know that my mommy loves me. I know  the experience of life is not always a walk in the park and things get hard for everyone sometimes. I know there is no stronger force in this entire universe then love. Reguarding more spiritual experiences. I know when I pray or worship in relationship to christ. I feel alitteral hot warm spirit pouring into my physical bosy that consists primarily of pure, radiant love and power. I know that from every other spiritual practice I have had. That is the only one that has that effect.  I know that has a dramatically positive effect on my personal, mental and spiritual well being. I also know upon learning about christ and coupled with the experiences I've had my lifestyle changed almost effortlessly (starting at 21 now im 26). I know that change was pretty dramatic. I know that I animals, humans, plants and life exsists on this planet as I have seen them with my naked eye. I know I have seen with my naked eye in one occasion while in a dark room, wide awake and fully alert an angelic white light being suspended in the air and on another occasion while fully alert a dark shadow man. Both having their own unique presence you could feel in the room and one pentraited peace into the atmosphere the other penetraited fear and kinda had a smell like rotten eggs acompaning him. I am sure you can guess which being penetraited what sense. So that leads me to believe in a spiritual reality and a possible invisible spirit world. Beacuse they both apeared and vanished in this world, the natural. Now I know all those things based on what lionheart said based on the 5 sense's.

But as regards to projection. I do not *Know* little to anything at all. And that is why I am here. Asking what can you as individual "Projectors" If I may use the word. Know is real based on your individual experiences. And can you explain all of this to me. And also what is the concept of astral projection anyways. Projecting what? And to where? that sorta thing. I am very open minded just trying to understand.

(Sorry I could list quite alot more things I know from experience in my personal life but I did not wanna go on forever. So I listed natural and spiritual things I am certain of based on my 5 senses. While in an alert and very conscious state.)

[compressedFusion]

... can you as individual "Projectors" If I may use the word. Know is real based on your individual experiences. And can you explain all of this to me. And also what is the concept of astral projection anyways. Projecting what? And to where? that sorta thing. I am very open minded just trying to understand...

The concept of "Phasing" may give you some insight to your questions.  Here is a resource on this board

http://www.astralpulse.com/frankkepple.html

The terms "out of body" and "projecting" lag behind our understanding as we share experiences.  So, I wouldn't get too hung up on the words.  It's not where you go but where your attention is focused. 

Imagine for a moment that you have never looked up at the sky.  All you have done your whole life is look down at the ground.  One day, inexplicably, you decide to look up and realize there is a much wider world around you.  It would seem like a totally different world.  Or try hanging upside down sometime and see how different things look.  Better yet go back to looking at the world from 2 feet tall.  It looks completely different and helps you remember what it was like as a child.

Descartes realized that he couldn't prove his own existence and said "I think therefore I am".  It is about the experience.  You might say, "But this world is very real and has consequences".  This thought will unravel if you trace it back to the Big Bang and then say "ok now what".  You are left with a system that has compressed the entire Universe into the particle the size of an electron and absolutely everything has merged.

The point is to challenge what you believe and move on to what you know from your experience.  I suggest that your experience of pure radiant love or the Holy Spirit is the same experience as an OOBE.  It happens on the same level.  You are at the same place.  It is merely a question of focus.

I believe most hear will tell you to do two things:

1.) Keep an open mind and be ready to experience your personal journey
2.) Keep an open heart because we each have our own personal journey

You seem to have both.  You are heading down the right path.

I will say one last thing in the spirit of a personal challenge.  Ask yourself how your concept of demons formed.  Was it from passages like Revelation 12:9.  If this were truly an OOBE experienced by John then it may help to read about other peoples experiences on demons in this state.  Their experiences are no more or less valid than John's.

Compare that to passages such as Matthew 8:16.  Are these the same type of words?  I encourage you to look up the greek words.   If you had the ability to heal the sick how would you describe it to somebody 2000 years ago.  Would you say that you took away the bacteria or would you use the words of the time?

[Astral-Trea]

Johnnydreamer, You remind me of myself many years ago. I was a christian who associated with alot of other christians, went to church, etc.. But also was very interested in this stuff. When I mentioned it to other christian friends, I found that they all unanimously thought it was some sort of evil practice that was not christian and they all told me i should stop it. At the time, I guess I listened to a certain degree.

It wasnt until a few years ago that I started to realize that I was evolving beyond christianity, that the small mindedness of the belief system was holding me back. And it was only very recently that I finally let go of the title of "christian" because I felt I had evolved too far beyond it to call myself that.. But I was afraid to let go of that status that was so important to me all these years.

My point is that you do not have to let go of christianity to evolve or understand this stuff, but being too stuck on the belief system of christianity will make it difficult for you to do so. I hear christians now all the time saying things like that if you practice Astral Projection, you are worshiping the devil.. Or if you lucid dream, that you are worshiping the devil. I roll my eyes and just smack my forehead when i hear this stuff because it is those type of beliefs that are the epidemy of ignorance. If you have a lucid dream, you are not worshipping the devil for crying out loud. The belief seems to be that if you do anything not understood or specifically stated as not being a sin in the bible, you are somehow wrong. Alot of these things happen naturally with no intent, and I dont believe for a minute that even in christianity beliefs , that you can accidentally worship satan. Sorry I am ranting let me move on lol.

It is that belief system and other earthly programming that I think is holding you back. You have been taught your whole life to believe that there are three distinct states of conciousness.. Dreaming, reality, and the spirit world. Furthermore, you have been taught to believe that the spirit world consists of 3 levels... heaven, hell, and a void somewhere in the middle probably.

As long as you think of reality in this way, you wont begin to understand these things because you have to first change your understanding of what reality is. Belief systems instill alot of fear which is why i dislike them all so much now. Fear is your enemy and will hold you back.

I hope I dont come off as trying to attack christianity, because I am highly against attacking the religion or people who are christians. I believe that it is a great foundation but it is not all there is, and it has been highly altered and adapted to fit various agendas by man, hence the reason there are so many denominations of the same religion that have such huge differences alot of times. For me, the more I learned about these things.. The less Christianity made sense which is why I like to say I have evolved beyond it. I have developed a seemingly rare ability to see the bits of truth in everything, and see how everything is connected. And if I went back in time to about 2011 and talked to my past self about the things I believe now, i would think i was crazy! It is what people call "an awakening." But you have to experience and evolve on your own, nobody can tell you how to do it., i guess it is what people talk about when they say they are finding themselves.

Keep experiencing things, read books about it by people like Robert Monroe and Robert Bruce, etc. and keep being open minded.