Is this real? or are we fooling ourselves.

[Tongo]

This is more for the seasoned experienced Astral Projectors here.

I did have a very brief OBE some years back and it felt realer than everything i've ever experienced whilst asleep but at the end of it all I did find myself questioning the "reality" of the experience. We all know how powerful such things as drugs can be in he way it alters our perception and everything in it. The majority of science would sum up OBE's to be nothing more than an inner psychological experience and nothing more and this basically means none of us are entering alternate dimensions or meeting entities or spirits or really spying in the RTZ. ITS SOLELY ALL IN THE MIND but I can't help but think there is more to this. Validations seem to be the only real proof it seems they are rare and open to debate (and yes I have read the long validation thread here).

Is there ANY seasoned projecters here who can say without a shadow of a doubt that what they are experiencing out there is "real" in terms of going into other dimensions and such. I know you have to find your own proof but even if I was able to project more I would still be asking the same question regardless of how real the experience felt.

Please don't reply with questions like; "what is real?" you know what I mean.

[Lumaza]

Is there ANY seasoned projecters here who can say without a shadow of a doubt that what they are experiencing out there is "real" in terms of going into other dimensions and such.

Tongo, you registered here August 01, 2007. So in 6 years I am sure you have read countless posts with a ton of first hand experiences in them. Do you think everyone is making this up?

The simple answer to your question is YES it is "real".

Science sees things in terms of objective and subjective. If they can't see the "nuts and bolts" and how the system operates, then their conclusion is there must be no system period. But old science has been replaced with new science. Changes are being made to things they thought they had knew all the time. Someday further Quantum and Scalar Wave research will help them to uncover and understand the Multiverse better.

[Tongo]

Tongo, you registered here August 01, 2007. So in 6 years I am sure you have read countless posts with a ton of first hand experiences in them. Do you think everyone is making this up?

The simple answer to your question is YES it is "real".

Science sees things in terms of objective and subjective. If they can't see the "nuts and bolts" and how the system operates, then their conclusion is there must be no system period. But old science has been replaced with new science. Changes are being made to things they thought they had knew all the time. Someday further Quantum and Scalar Wave research will help them to uncover and understand the Multiverse better.

Experiences do not equal evidence. I could say I took something and had an experience and and saw green elephants dancing in the room but its not proof of anything.

In terms of science it seems they do have a good understanding of what parts of the brain does what also and I am not sure they'll ever conclude this is anything real.

[Astralsuzy]

I read in an ap book and it said, if you are not sure your experience was real then it was not real.   It also said, if you know it was real then it was real.   I agreed with this.   I do not always agree with what I read. 

You said, We all know how powerful such things as drugs can be in he way it alters our perception and everything in it
I do not take drugs and I know that my ap is real. 

By asking this forum the question you will never be satisfied.    It cannot be proven by us.  It has to be proved by you. 

[Stillwater]

I think probably something in the middle.

I think all the astral flying, the other beings we meet, the places we go... all of that is happening in our heads. I have not experienced anything that convinces me otherwise. If you think very carefully about it, it only makes sense.

Why is it that the slightest shock or emotion can place us right back into our body?

Why is the world we experience out there so much like our own subconscious brain's view of reality?

Why do we continue to have the hopes and desires and fears of a human person?

Why are the beings we meet generally so much like our own minds?

Why do we experience the world with senses very similar to those of a human person?

Isn't it more likely that we never left, and were in something like a dream-state?

Put another way... let's suppose we actually were leaving our body, and traveling elsewhere. How does that make sense? Where would we go? If we were traveling to a realm beyond time and space, why would we have to travel to get there? Couldn't we just close our eyes and be anywhere at all in this space without space? Isn't that what actually really happens in practice, in the projection experience? People just will themselves into other mental spaces. So if there is no travel involved... we never really left to begin with.

Projection is an experience where our conscious mind looks inward and visits our subconscious mind. This has been my view of the projection experience for many years. But that doesn't mean that it is a worthless experience. At the very worst, it allows us to explore our own subconscious in a way we never get the opportunity to otherwise. And I also believe the projection state puts us in a "state of receptivity", where we may have closer than usual access to the greater realities outside of our sphere. If you really think about it, that isn't much different than what most people here want projection to be.

People want projection to be an experience where we visit a realm outside the confines of our body. I think it is something more along the lines of, we stay in our body, and we are given the opportunity to commune with the world outside... sort of like we are both doing now, with these computer screens. We are both looking at text on screens. Yet we are both convinced that we are connecting with one another across time and space, and that there is a reality beyond the text, which the text is only hinting at.

[Positive3]

I don't remember who was it maybe Szaxx one of the old members of astralpulse he said that he have done xperiments with her sister or friends i don't remember they meet each other and recalled same memories while astral traveling also you can do tests like ask your friend to write number or anything on a paper and put it in other room in other building anywhere but you must know place there are many things with u can proove astral projection if it happens in your brain wow then we have so many possibilities lol i think u worry here also about if there is life after death and if "supernatural" is actually real maybe u don't personally i had fear of death and after some OBE's these fears were gone for me for this time OBE/Astral Porjection is just to enhance my self i removed many fears... Fears like ( Afraid of Dark , Afraid of Death , Afraid Of Ghost/Demons and so on )

[Szaxx]

I've met a few friends in my early days a d it was verified. Ive travelled through time and gone to places that now exist, 40 years later. I've been in aircraft with people many times and witnessed the crash a week later where everything was precisely as seen.
If that is all subconscious creation it seems far too involved.
It's real and you will find this out eventually. A six year olds mind can't create a world war 2 scene that's a perfect match to what occurred. Things like the emotions of those involved is beyond understanding at that age.
Explore the NP and see for yourself.
It is worthwhile good and bad included.

[Positive3]

Can i ask how u let's say so "predict future" just with strong intent focusing on 2017 maybe let's say so or it just happened

[Lumaza]

I have not experienced anything that convinces me otherwise. If you think very carefully about it, it only makes sense.

How often do you or did you consciously project Stillwater?

Why is it that the slightest shock or emotion can place us right back into our body?  Answer: Fight or flight response. Fear still controls us. Frank Kepple explained it this way "So a person who has mild difficulties controlling their emotional-state while Physical, will tend to have serious difficulties within the Astral which could take significant time to overcome. But someone who can easily keep their emotions in check while Physical, chances are, will have only fairly mild difficulties within the Astral, which will be quickly overcome."
That quote came from this thread here where Frank was explaining the "Astral Proper and Training Zone".
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/welcome_to_astral_consciousness/astral_proper_and_training_zone-t4296.0.html


Why is the world we experience out there so much like our own subconscious brain's view of reality? Answer: They are only in the beginning stages. Once you just learn to passively observe, you will find that all the lessons there are meant to prepare you for a new way of thinking

Why do we continue to have the hopes and desires and fears of a human person? Answer: Same as above

Why are the beings we meet generally so much like our own minds? Answer: Same as above

Why do we experience the world with senses very similar to those of a human person? Answer: Same as above. The answer after your #2 question seems to apply to all of the rest of your questions.

Isn't it more likely that we never left, and were in something like a dream-state? Answer: Yes and no. When you constantly find yourself living in an entirely different dimension for nights on end, you realize that this is not just a Dream. Now this realization comes from what would be known as the Lucid Dream state. But I have had enough of these to know without a shadow of a doubt that something real is occurring there. If I was a Author, I could write a book on my "other" life, with all the pages in my Dream Journals I have already written. But I have no wish to do that at all.

The beginning stages of a conscious AP do start akin to a Dream state though. Things are not immediately as clear as they are from a LD state. It takes awhile for vivid imagery to appear during a conscious AP.
[/quote]
These questions can be answered with two words "Human conditioning". Once we move beyond that we see in an entirely different way.

Put another way... let's suppose we actually were leaving our body, and traveling elsewhere. How does that make sense? Where would we go? If we were traveling to a realm beyond time and space, why would we have to travel to get there? Couldn't we just close our eyes and be anywhere at all in this space without space? Isn't that what actually really happens in practice, in the projection experience? People just will themselves into other mental spaces. So if there is no travel involved... we never really left to begin with.

It doesn't make sense. At least no sense that can be proven as of this moment in time. But ask yourself this, how do you take a bunch of Neutrons, Electrons and Protons, put them together and get a consciously aware Human being out of this? Consciousness is the main link here. But Science doesn't know for sure exactly what "consciousness" is and what it's limits are.

We can just close our eyes and be anywhere. But first we have to lose our Human conditioning and "allow" that shift to take place. A couple of years ago and still today sometimes I was experiencing this myself. I would just simply close my eyes and find myself somewhere else. I wrote about this before here when I had this happen for the first time while taking a shower. I got some shampoo in my eyes and closed them quickly and found that I was teetering on the end of a raging waterfall. I got so disoriented that I really started to fall. I grabbed my shower curtains and nearly yanked them down. For awhile this happened only in my shower. I actually started to think my shower was some kind of "portal" or something, lol. I questioned whether the running water had anything to do with it too. Once I closed my eyes in there and found myself naked in the middle of a city akin to New York. People were just walking as normal, but I felt "very" naked in every sense of the word.

I emailed Tom Campbell and asked if he could explain this to me and he replied that this was a "new exploratory phase" and that "Phases come and go as you are ready to learn and absorb them".

Was I dreaming? No, this imagery was there immediately and as vivid as this reality is now. I know Szaxx and others have and still do experience this to this day as well. It only happens periodically with me now.

Now this isn't like when I close my eyes to create visualization. The images that are seen are completely spontaneous at the time. There was no "willing" or intent involved in this.

Perhaps we never have to leave, because it is always there. The process of AP just teaches us how to simply shift our focus into one of the endless realities that just are there.  

During a OBE though there seems to be a very strong feeling of moving away from the body. When I have them from SP they usually take the same path, which is a exit from my feet/legs, down my hallway and out my patio window into wherever or whatever I need to see. I never make any conscious intent other than to trust that where I end up is where I need to.

[Stillwater]

Ok, I made a little chart, because I think there may be some confusion- this is a complex question, and I think some people may take one position to implicitly mean more than it necessarily does.

There are two main questions here:

1)Are humans in contact with a metaphysical realm in the projection state?
2)Are humans leaving their body during the projection state?

Now, many people feel that if you answer no to question 2, it means you also answer no to question 1.

I actually answer no to question 2, but yes to question one.

Notice the arguments given against my position here were actually arguments against materialism (a view I don't hold). It is much harder in my opinion to argue against the view that we are experiencing metaphysical realms from the vantage point of a physical body- you would have to prove we were no longer physically present in our body while experiencing the projection reality, which to me seems likely to be an impossibility.



Given this clarification, I suspect we are not really as far from agreement as it may seem.

Ok, Lumaza's objections:

Yes and no. When you constantly find yourself living in an entirely different dimension for nights on end, you realize that this is not just a Dream.

I can relate here. I have had a few of these experiences where there was extreme time-dilation- they seemed to take literal weeks. But the experience of extreme time dilation alone does not prove we left our bodies. Our perception of time as humans is actually far more variable than people suppose it to be. I suspect it may be tied to the brain clock state... the higher the clock speed, the more experience time is crammed into a second. This does correspond to what athletes experience... in the extreme beta and gamma states, the clock speed is fastest of all, and atheletes report that "time seems to slow down", or that they enter a "focus zone". This may well be an effect that is occurring during these long, drawn out experiences. Normal projections seem to happen in the theta state, but perhaps there are exceptions.

But ask yourself this, how do you take a bunch of Neutrons, Electrons and Protons, put them together and get a consciously aware Human being out of this? Consciousness is the main link here. But Science doesn't know for sure exactly what "consciousness" is and what it's limits are.

Yeah, I am with you 100% on this. I have written book-long discussions of this problem in other places. What you are referring to is very well recognized in modern philosophy as something called the "ontological divide". The contemporary philosopher, David Chalmers discusses this issue, and calls it the "Hard problem of consciousness". This is one of the main reasons that I am convinced that human minds are metaphysical beings. There are really only a few logically consistent ways to solve this problem. Either those physical particles you talk about have to be conscious themselves, and consciousness is a fundamental property of the physical world (for how else would a physical system gain first-person awareness and experiences?), or else minds are something non-physical, which is the view I take.

Most properly, I believe that mind is likely to be the only thing in this equation. The physical system is a construction of mind, which we are placing ourselves within. This is a more nuanced way to understand my view on projection, if it is helpful: Projection does not cause our consciousness to discontinue its connection with the physical world.

I think what you intended to do here was to refute materialism, but now that we both see that I am not a materialist, I think we can agree the arguement isn't needed here.

Perhaps we never have to leave, because it is always there. The process of AP just teaches us how to simply shift our focus into one of the endless realities that just are there.

I think this is something I can be onboard with. For me I think it is like we are in a dreamstate, but that those other realities are at times feeding us information through our physical filter.

How often do you or did you consciously project Stillwater?

These days, my experiences launch from Lucid dreams. I don't set out to have them in advance most times, but I know what to do when my mind finds itself in that state(of self-awareness, followed by a reality check), and they come once every week or two. I started out around 2001 with conscious attempts. It took me quite a while, and I ended up with a handful of decent experiences after a year or two, but I had to remember to wake up early in the morning to do it, and I didn't prove too good at remembering. I fell into a pattern of instead relying on Lucid dreams as my main launching point. I believe LD and conscious projections to ultimately be the same class of experience, but perhaps in the future I will return to conscious attempts. Oddly enough, for me over time I came to have a spiritual practice that was more focused on the physical world and our connection to it; I think a lot of people get into a sort of trap of thinking that the world outside of the physical is more special than this present experience. I think that they are both equally important, and that we probably chose to be here for a reason, so I want to learn the lessons that the physical has to offer.

I suppose a metaphor is visiting a country such as Nepal for a week; while you are there, the best possible use of your time is to be eating Nepalese food, speaking with natives, learning about their outlooks on life, finding out what their experience is like, visiting special sites in that country, etc. You might spend a half hour checking your email, but your time there is precious.

I think your own practice is the method of using pre-built visualization narratives to enter the projection state, right?

Szaxx:

Ok, I am not sure if this was a response to my post, or just the general idea of the thread, but I will post a response here, insofar as it may be useful in expressing my viewpoint.

It's real and you will find this out eventually. A six year olds mind can't create a world war 2 scene that's a perfect match to what occurred. Things like the emotions of those involved is beyond understanding at that age.

I agree. I think oftentimes we are presented with information from the greater reality outside of ourselves. Assuming it is as you said, and the child does in fact gain accurate and detailed information they could not have accessed or understood at that age, it would seem this is what was happening. But remember I am talking about the mechanics here. I am arguing that we are accessing outer information through our physical filter while in an altered state. Gaining outside information does not disprove that it was filtered through our physical system. This makes sense, right?

Hope that clarifies things!

[Lumaza]

Hope that clarifies things!

Very masterfully and well worded Stillwater!  

My conclusions all spawn from my own personal experiences.

In 2011 I first came to this Forum and began absorbing the information here like a sponge. My first attempt at a conscious AP came from a simple "candle burning" technique. From there I attempted to AP everyday. Not all attempts were successful, as in a full projection. But they all led to progress on some level. Experiencing the signposts, learning how to just passively observe them and things like became my entire focus. My occupation has me travelling all over the country and in my travels I met others that do AP consciously aware as well.

After awhile I could just close my eyes and see something there. From there it moved onto becoming aware in LDs. For a couple of years or so, this became my "mode" for experiencing other realms. This is when I really began to experience "parallel universes" as well. This also led to "uploads/downloads" whatever you want to call it. LDs became my mode of adventure due to my Trigeminal Neuralgia. Actually I believe that my TN actually helped me. I learned "Dream Yoga" because of it. It also forced me into finding a new way to AP as well.

Today I practice conscious APs a few times a week. I do meditate every day though. But on top of that I have very vivid LDs almost every night.

I also experience what begins as RTZ (real time zone) OBEs. Once I exit my patio window I find myself somewhere else, some other realm. These are totally spontaneous and always happen due to SP.

As you stated the other realms have their own lessons but so does this current one. I believe and have been shown that we came to this physical to experience it in all it's shapes and forms. The same goes with the other realms though. They are all experiences and the more we do experience, the deeper our experiences get.

This practice in general makes you consciously aware of every realm, this current one included. You seem to unlock unique abilities that you have always had, but have just never noticed. You are completely open to learning anew everywhere you go or are.

[Szaxx]

Can i ask how u let's say so "predict future" just with strong intent focusing on 2017 maybe let's say so or it just happened

Most of these occurred randomly after I asked to see them in an experience. I found them very stressful emotionally and have sort of swiched them off.
They do occur but not as involved as previously experienced.

[no_leaf_clover]

I was also very interested in finding what we call objective truth for the out of body experience.  The most satisfying thing for me was reading near death experiences and reports such as this one:

Study: Brains Function in Clinically Dead

A British scientist studying heart attack patients says he is finding evidence that suggests that consciousness may continue after the brain has stopped functioning and a patient is clinically dead.

The research, presented to scientists last week at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), resurrects the debate over whether there is life after death and whether there is such a thing as the human soul.

"The studies are very significant in that we have a group of people with no brain function ... who have well-structured, lucid thought processes with reasoning and memory formation at a time when their brains are shown not to function," Sam Parnia, one of two doctors from Southampton General Hospital in England who have been studying so-called near-death experiences (NDEs), told Reuters in an interview.

http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98447&page=1


I also played with remote viewing and got results that were accurate enough to satisfy my doubtful mind.

I know you said not to ask "what is real?," and so I didn't go that route.  But in fairness to what I have come to understand about reality, I have to say that this is actually a very fair question to ask.  Philosophers have been asking it for centuries, if not millennia, already, and though the question may not yet be settled, there are lots of very, very interesting perspectives that would turn this whole idea of "objective reality" on its head.  Even theoretical scientists are beginning to question it.

[Volgerle]

here's enough proof by AP, 'anecdotal' and some studies, yes, it will never convince the skeptic, but anyway, it's worht a try:

http://da-lai.lima-city.de/

have fun reading, it's a lot

[personalreality]

Does it matter?

If it's real, cool. We're interacting with the universe. We're feeling the pulse of reality.

If it's not, cool, We're interacting with our own mind/soul/whatever. We're feeling the pulse of our personal reality.

I think it's a win win.

Plus, you might say that both the universe at large and our personal realities are really the same thing expressed in different ways.

Maybe. Who knows? I don't. But I don't care. You'll never definitely define your reality. Just experience it.

Do what thou wilt. It is what it is.

[Enigmatik]

There are more than a few things about my experiences in the astral realm that make me believe they are just some sort of random events produced by my brain.  The first experience I had was when I floated to the ceiling.  I felt like I needed to open my eyes so I could see.  But upon further analysis I was seeing EVERYTHING at once.  A sort of 3d or 360 degree vision.  This is not unique to me.  I believe many people have this enhanced sense of sight. 

Could this just be some product of this state of mind?  Yes.  However, more in depth experiences have proven to me that these can be more than a individually based experience.

One night my wife was sitting up against the head of the bed browsing on her phone.  I noticed this when I got out of body and walked to her side of the bed.  Somehow I had SENSED what she was looking at.  So the next morning... when we woke up I approached her.  I told her what happened and asked her if she was researching cookies.  She was shocked and said yes.  This to me is clearly not stuff just made up by my mind.

I have more examples that are proof enough to me that there is definately something to this and more than a dream per say.  It almost feels as if we are more real in an AP than in this world.  Our senses here seem so dumbed down as if they are so limited.  But when in AP they are fully accessible without restriction.  Sight isn't limited to what is in front of you.  Communication there doesn't seem to use words.. it's more automatic.  Almost like things are just known.  Telepathy.  Travel here is so limited as well.  But when there you just need think and you can go whereever.  I am still working on this part because I'm so conditioned in thinking you need to walk, use a car, plane, etc... 

Maybe the earth is just somewhere we go because it is unique.  It gives us more of a challenge.  There seem to be so many restrictions.  It's almost like a video game in that sense.  Maybe we come here because we are bored of being tapped into the relative ease on the other side.  I don't think I would be so into learning more and more about AP if I didn't think there was something to it.  It's too bad people don't have more knowledge about this sort of thing.  And too bad people get so scared of it and want to avoid it.  I just feel blessed to know that I'm not alone in this.

[Lumaza]

I have more examples that are proof enough to me that there is definately something to this and more than a dream per say.  It almost feels as if we are more real in an AP than in this world.  Our senses here seem so dumbed down as if they are so limited.  But when in AP they are fully accessible without restriction.  Sight isn't limited to what is in front of you.  Communication there doesn't seem to use words.. it's more automatic.  Almost like things are just known.  Telepathy.  Travel here is so limited as well.  But when there you just need think and you can go whereever.  I am still working on this part because I'm so conditioned in thinking you need to walk, use a car, plane, etc... 

Maybe the earth is just somewhere we go because it is unique.  It gives us more of a challenge.  There seem to be so many restrictions.  It's almost like a video game in that sense.  Maybe we come here because we are bored of being tapped into the relative ease on the other side.  I don't think I would be so into learning more and more about AP if I didn't think there was something to it.  It's too bad people don't have more knowledge about this sort of thing.  And too bad people get so scared of it and want to avoid it.  I just feel blessed to know that I'm not alone in this.

Excellent post Enigmatic!  I especially enjoyed the quotes above.

Once you learn how to navigate in the other realms you really get to see how incredible it is. 360 vision, telepathy, thought = action instantaneously, travel at the blink of an eye. We really get to see how many restrictions we do have in this current reality here on Earth in these physical vessels that we find ourselves occupying.

As you say, "if only everyone could see this for themselves". Well someday they will. When they are ready to see, it will always be there to show them.