"Threatening" Territory during OBE

[CFTraveler]

Can I get ya a tissue bud?

Take a deep breathe n count to 10. Where all friends here.

It certainly doesn't seem like it, reading this post.

[Greytraveller]

Greetings

Yes, I do find the OBE = LD argument to be very redundant and, at times, obnoxious.

Summerlander
Why do you feel the need to continually repeat this argument again and again?

Does anyone read posts from Tee or myself that Continually profess the belief that OBEs and LDs are separate and distinct phenomena??
The answer to the above question is NO.
While both of us Do believe that OBEs are Not LDs neither of us feels it necessary to interject that belief continually into many different threads.

IMO the OBEs = LDs argument is essentially the same as the argument that the consciousness can Not exist apart from and separate from the physical body. The OBE = LD argument basically boils down to believing that anyone who claims to have experienced their consciousness outside and apart from their physical body (via OBE or NDE) is Mistaken and is unaware that the OBE or NDE is just some sort of glorified Lucid Dream.
The many accounts of people who have had NDEs have clearly and unequivocally shown that consciousness can and does exist apart from the physical body under certain conditions.
NDEs and OBE are not LDs. But here, once again, I am on the defensive. And (read my last post) I won't waste time on this particular argument anymore.

But, hey, from now on, maybe I'll end every third or fourth post here with a statement like,

"And, oh btw, just remember that OBEs (and NDEs) are NOT the same as lucid dreams."

It won't really matter what the original post in the thread is about. I will include the above statement just to remind everyone what my personal belief is.
Now, IF I do that on a regular basis for several weeks then I warrant Many people Will see how obnoxious Any argument can be when it is repeated over and over and out of context .

Sincerely 
Grey

[Pauli2]

Everyone should have that in their sig.

[Summerlander]

Grey, you still haven't told me why one side of the coin is obnoxious and the other isn't. It's not about whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not. It's about whether or not OOBEs and LDs are the same. Hell, I've even had a normal dream that weeks later seems to have proved its precognitive nature! You are avoiding my question. Why are you so in favour of one view and not the other?

[Xanth]

Why do you feel the need to continually repeat this argument again and again?

Does anyone read posts from Tee or myself that Continually profess the belief that OBEs and LDs are separate and distinct phenomena??
The answer to the above question is NO.

I can't answer for Summerlander, but for myself, the knowledge that OBEs and LDs are the same thing is what I believe to be a fundamental step in forwarding our knowledge of the subject.  So yup, I'm gonna be very redundant upon it... because of how fundamental I believe that knowledge to be.  I mean, personally, I simply can't understand why people believe they're different... it's like the nose on my face, so completely and utterly obvious.

IMO the OBEs = LDs argument is essentially the same as the argument that the consciousness can Not exist apart from and separate from the physical body. The OBE = LD argument basically boils down to believing that anyone who claims to have experienced their consciousness outside and apart from their physical body (via OBE or NDE) is Mistaken and is unaware that the OBE or NDE is just some sort of glorified Lucid Dream.
The many accounts of people who have had NDEs have clearly and unequivocally shown that consciousness can and does exist apart from the physical body under certain conditions.
NDEs and OBE are not LDs. But here, once again, I am on the defensive. And (read my last post) I won't waste time on this particular argument anymore.

That's the fundamental problem.  It's one of separating and categorizing experiences (and I'm 100% guilty of doing this as well)... what purpose does it serve to do this?  It simply creates even more of a divide in an already divided community. 

I see categorizing things such as "dreams", "lucid dreams", "NDEs", or whatever as a self-imposed limitation.  There's no reason what-so-ever to categorize these experiences in such a manner.

But yes, Summerlander tossing it in like it's a crouton in a salad (or in this case ANY food product LoL) might not be the best of situations and comes across as being... well, something less than desirable... I mean, I try to mention it only when it's applicable to the subject matter of the thread.  LOL

I mean, the discussion here is the same discussion of "do I really need to state 'in my opinion' before I state my opinion?".  State whatever you want to state, but try to put it in context of the subject of the thread. 

[Xanth]

Grey, you still haven't told me why one side of the coin is obnoxious and the other isn't. It's not about whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not. It's about whether or not OOBEs and LDs are the same. Hell, I've even had a normal dream that weeks later seems to have proved its precognitive nature! You are avoiding my question. Why are you so in favour of one view and not the other?

But really... (I'm being rhetoric here, but) why does that matter?

I'm happy that people are really just having experiences in the first place... regardless of how they categorize them.  I mean, I'll toss out the thought to them that "Hey, maybe that experience which you just abruptly categorized as a Lucid Dream... isn't a Lucid Dream, but a full projection?", just something to HOPEFULLY get them opening their mind to the possibility that perhaps it really was more than "just" something.

But it's not the end-all-be-all of the experience.  The EXPERIENCE is the end-all-be-all of the experience.  How someone interprets it isn't. 

[Pauli2]

But really... (I'm being rhetoric here, but) why does that matter?

yes

[Summerlander]

It really doesn't matter what we call it or what terms we conjure up. I just don't understand the "obnoxious" part.

[Greytraveller]

Greetings

Summerlander And Xanth
Boy. Neither of you get this thing At All, do you.

Summerlander, you posted

Grey, you still haven't told me why one side of the coin is obnoxious and the other isn't. It's not about whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not. It's about whether or not OOBEs and LDs are the same. Hell, I've even had a normal dream that weeks later seems to have proved its precognitive nature! You are avoiding my question. Why are you so in favour of one view and not the other?

This tells me ALL I need to know in a nutshell.
Because it IS about

whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not.

Yes, that's right and Ill repeat it for your benefit, it IS about

whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not.

[/b]

I am going to do you both a BIG favor here and let you reply to this sentence.
So take a BIG breath and think awhile. Then come back with your best shot.

And, oh yes, Summerlander, MANY PEOPLE experience precognitive dreams. That IN NO WAY proves that all OBES = LDs.

Regards  
Grey

[Jilt]

OK boys, it's like the Shites and the Sunnies here - splitting hairs. I originally posted this topic so I'm going to give my two cents even though I'm a newcomer.

Many books/spiritual traditions/teachers talk about the fact we generate an astral body when we sleep that is separate from our physical selves and this is automatic, not a conscious separation. I've actual seen my husband's astral body hovering above his physical body when he sleeps so I think this could very well be true. So it's just a matter of semantics of whether we call it a LD or OOBE -- both happen when we are CONSCIOUS when the separation occurs (or become conscious later which is rarer in my experience).

Whether we feel the body lift out or not is inconsequential. It's our consciousness that is projecting, not our bodies. In fact, our larger 'higher self' isn't in our physical bodies anyway so we're just merging with the greater "all that is" where there is no spatial 3-D limitations.  I've had hundreds approaching thousands of conscious LDs and OOBEs over the last 20 years and this is my humble opinion.

[Xanth]

Grey
I think you missed the post after that one that I made to Summerlander...

whether consciousness exists outside of the body or not.

But really... (I'm being rhetoric here, but) why does that matter?

Beyond personal opinion, it really doesn't matter. 

OK boys, it's like the Shites and the Sunnies here - splitting hairs.

Which was the point I was trying to make. 

[Summerlander]

Grey,

OOBEs = Out of Body Experiences

It means that you experience being out of body but that doesn't make it so. The term is not affirming that we really do go out of body. It is very much a pragmatic term. Likewise, dreams can be regarded as out of body experiences in the sense that you are not aware of being in the body but rather, you have the sensation of being somewhere else which might as well be happening in your mind.

You tend to use the term "OOBEs" as though you know that you really go out of body. It doesn't really matter if you see someone's "astral body" hovering above the person's body. It doesn't mean that the astral essence is really there. Rather, it could be an interpretation or even a hallucination based on expectation. Our brains can play many tricks on us. The fact that we blink in our waking states means that a good few ours of the day goes unregistered and we all know about the brain's uncanny ability to make up what it doesn't know. I've had quite a few "validations" with this phenomena and still I don't dismiss other more mundane explanations because they could still explain what appears to be extraordinary.

Do yourself a favour and check out Raduga's perspective on www.obe4u.com. It's great stuff and it makes you consider other possibilities. In there, all is the same phenomenon, meaning "the Phase" = (OOBEs/AP/LD). It's all the Phase (not to be mistaken with Kepple's "Phase" technique).

Just because the sky meets the sea at the horizon doesn't make it so. I've said this before and I'll say it again. I'm quite lucky to be fickle in nature because it prompts me to consider other perspectives constantly. Anyone who's known me from AVers and eversince I decided to join these communities knows that I am constantly looking at things from different angles. The perspective you have now is the one I had at the beginning when I was excited and biased by the New Age interpretations. Now I look at things in a different way.

You are holding on to something for dear life because you simply want to believe in the perspective that you currently hold and this is causing you to abhor all other perspectives. No matter what you say, the distinctions you made can still be different ways of entering the same state no matter how different things may feel. You are forgetting the state is very much subjective.

I've had many so-called validations but I'm calling you out on any validations you may think you have which makes you 100% sure things are the way you say they are. I can give you a whole load of mundane explanations if you come up with something to the likes of what Jilt has just mentioned. That to me doesn't mean anything. There are so many explanations for ghost sightings, dopplegangers and the whole shebang during waking states.

[Pauli2]

Buhlman has written that there is a clear difference between an LD and an OBE.

That's a statement from someone who has his own experience to fall back on.

And to me, yes, that difference matters.

A pear is not an apple.

[Xanth]

Do yourself a favour and check out Raduga's perspective on www.obe4u.com.

That's the thing though Summer... it's Raduga's perspective, it's your perspective, it's my perspective... it's not Grey's perspective.  I can respect that.

As with my discussions with Pauli, I've really come to the conclusion (and I actually realized this just the other night in regards to myself LoL) that... everyone has to come to their own conclusions.  I have no doubt that they'll eventually be forced, due to personal experience (ok maybe not in Pauli's case *ba da bum!* ^_~), to come to the same conclusion that you and I have.

But for now, there's no sense in pushing a perspective that really doesn't change much.

[Summerlander]

Buhlman has written that there is a clear difference between an LD and an OBE.

That's a statement from someone who has his own experience to fall back on.

And to me, yes, that difference matters.

A pear is not an apple.

Buhlman...pffft!

I've got my own experience to fall back on and a head about me. Any arse-wiper can write fanciful stuff that will bring hope and a smile to the excited newbie.

But for now, there's no sense in pushing a perspective that really doesn't change much.

No, there's definitely no sense in pushing it but there is also no sense in Grey shooting one perspective and saying it is obnoxious when it is mentioned. His perspective gets mentioned just as much and nobody here is saying it's obnoxious.

It's like me making certain distinctions about Mode 1 and Mode 2 OOBEs. One appears to be a Here-Now projection and perception appears to be unique. The other is an entrance into another realm where thoughts appear to have their own representational forms and emulate physical reality but can outshine it. Still, I don't claim to know for sure that this is so 100% when I know that there is also other valid theories that state that the Here-Now in the OOBE-state could still be an accurate simulation...possibly something closer to the physical realm than the Mode 2 environment but a representation of it nonetheless.

My point here is that, even though I hold my current views, I won't dismiss other theories or views provided that are not foolish, of course. I'm just saying. With this statement, I'm not saying that Grey's view in that OOBEs and lucid dreams are separate is foolish...no, I'm not saying that because he could be right...but, to me, it is just altered states of consciousness and they MAY well be part of the same phenomenon. You see, my use of the term "OOBE" is very pragmatic in that any state that gives me the impression that I am disassociated from the body IS that kind of experience. Even so, I still use the term "lucid dream" and I still use the term "OOBE" to let people know how such state has been entered. Which reminds me...

I had an OOBE today and I will post it soon. And when I mean "OOBE" I mean the one with the separation part which usually happens after vibrations...

PS. That Darina still hasn't sent me a picture, btw...

[Xanth]

Buhlman...pffft!

I've got my own experience to fall back on and a head about me. Any arse-wiper can write fanciful stuff that will bring hope and a smile to the excited newbie.

And for the most part, I agree with you.  Someone being an author doesn't give them precedence.
Our personal experience trumps theirs, 100%... but it only trumps it personally.

No, there's definitely no sense in pushing it but there is also no sense in Grey shooting one perspective and saying it is obnoxious when it is mentioned. His perspective gets mentioned just as much and nobody here is saying it's obnoxious.

I don't believe he was calling you obnoxious... (please correct me if I'm wrong, Grey ).  I believe he was calling your constant repetition of your/our belief obnoxious, especially when it comes well outside the context of the subject of the thread.

My point here is that, even though I hold my current views, I won't dismiss other theories or views provided that are not foolish, of course.

Nor should you. 
But it's important to pick your battles, here and in life in general.

[Summerlander]

Sure.

[Xanth]

degrading

Well, Summerlander's 'crudeness' aside... he's 100% correct.
Just about anyone can write their view of how they believe things to be in a book and get it published.
That doesn't make their opinion any more or less "correct".

By ignoring other possibilities, you're cutting yourself off to lots of potential sources of data.

[Summerlander]

I apologise for my crudeness, Xanth.

As I was saying, Pauli2, the writers you admire may be interesting and right about many things but they are still human and have their own views. They may tell us about what they think and how things appear to them based on their beliefs but...it's their interpretation and things are not always what they seem.

You are as capable as them to draw your own conclusions and even challenge their views just like physicists today have challenged Einestein's theories on the nature of reality. See, even those who are considered to be great minds can be challenged.

[Greytraveller]

Greetings

Summerlander
Of course you have a right to your own opinions.

Xanth is SPOT ON. He wrote

I don't believe he (Grey) was calling you obnoxious... (please correct me if I'm wrong, Grey Wink).  I believe he was calling your constant repetition of your/our belief obnoxious, especially when it comes well outside the context of the subject of the thread.

Thanx Xanth. That is Exactly what I meant and you stated it quite correctly and understandably.

So I'm NOT going to get into an argument about this. It's belief Vs belief. And as I've stated elsewhere (in this thread and others) it's just a BIG waste of time.
Just be aware that if I see this OBEs = LDs argument posted in other threads (and I am SURE it will be) then I will post a short counter-argument, something along the lines of,
"Be aware that OBE are Not the same as LDs. OBEs take place outside the physical body. LDs, while non-physical in nature, do Not happen outside the physical body."

That seems fair to me. If one person feels it necessary to post a personal opinion on this matter it IS fair for me to post an opposing viewpoint an equal number of times.
Like ads for opposition candidate during election time. No debate, just the promo for the opinion. 

Regards 
Grey

[Xanth]

Just be aware that if I see this OBEs = LDs argument posted in other threads (and I am SURE it will be) then I will post a short counter-argument, something along the lines of,
"Be aware that OBE are Not the same as LDs. OBEs take place outside the physical body. LDs, while non-physical in nature, do Not happen outside the physical body."

That seems fair to me. If one person feels it necessary to post a personal opinion on this matter it IS fair for me to post an opposing viewpoint an equal number of times.

That's 100% fair! 
And it's exactly how I operate... I wouldn't expect anything less from others. 

I'd rather people just post "how they see things" (aka: their opinion), without having to fear of getting into a "MY BELIEF IS BETTER THAN YOUR BELIEF" discussion... because that's gonna take us everywhere.  Rather, put all our cards out on the table and go from there.

Lexy said the same thing once (forgive me, but I forget the thread)... there's no sense in arguing stuff like this.  Just say your piece and move on. 

[Summerlander]

Okay! Fair enough. By the way, I never got round to posting my Mode 2 OOBE so I guess I'll do it tomorrow.

[djed]

Hi Jilt, I couldn't help thinking that I was reading a computer game scenario as I read your description of your AP.
Have you played much computer games? I can see this in many peoples stories of AP experiences.
Cheers, djed

[Tee1234]

Greetings

Summerlander
Of course you have a right to your own opinions.

Xanth is SPOT ON. He wrote

Thanx Xanth. That is Exactly what I meant and you stated it quite correctly and understandably.

So I'm NOT going to get into an argument about this. It's belief Vs belief. And as I've stated elsewhere (in this thread and others) it's just a BIG waste of time.
Just be aware that if I see this OBEs = LDs argument posted in other threads (and I am SURE it will be) then I will post a short counter-argument, something along the lines of,
"Be aware that OBE are Not the same as LDs. OBEs take place outside the physical body. LDs, while non-physical in nature, do Not happen outside the physical body."

That seems fair to me. If one person feels it necessary to post a personal opinion on this matter it IS fair for me to post an opposing viewpoint an equal number of times.
Like ads for opposition candidate during election time. No debate, just the promo for the opinion. 

Regards 
Grey

Bottomline4 me, I dont consider it an obe unless Im actually aware of exiting my body. The whole little process.

[Jilt]

Hi Jilt, I couldn't help thinking that I was reading a computer game scenario as I read your description of your AP.
Have you played much computer games? I can see this in many peoples stories of AP experiences.
Cheers, djed

Djed, I don't play computer games (other than Scrabble) so all this animated computer game like imagery really feels outside of me - not something I'm conjuring. I got the impression that I wasn't meant to go where I was asking and these were little 'programs' keeping me out. Especially since I got the very same effect twice in a row. I had something similar happen once when I asked to visit an old boyfriend and I got an international symbol for a broken heart and a stop sign which meant he was off limits because I had broken his heart (understandable in retrospect).