At 18 hospitals in the U.S. and U.K., researchers have suspended pictures, face up, from the ceilings in emergency-care areas. The reason: to test whether patients brought back to life after cardiac arrest can recall seeing the images during an out-of-body experience.
People who have these near-death experiences often describe leaving their bodies and watching themselves being resuscitated from above, but verifying such accounts is difficult. The images would be visible only to people who had done that. This study started back in oct 08 And ended in oct 12. 20% of people have a
cardiac arrest have a NDE.
I think Dr sam parnia objective & made the study bulletproof. Over the last 3 year's there looked at 2500.heart attack cardiac arrest. 20% will say they had a NDE. The 500 should see the hidden images. If not why not.? W soon find out if NDE are real or false.
It's a good idea from a physical reality standpoint but it's dubious do you not think?
After resuscitation the doctor asks.... "what were the numbers?"
"What numbers?"
"On top of the shelf"
"What?"
"we placed numbers on top of the shelf for you to see and report back... if you lived after your brief death"
"What?"
"we placed numbers on the top shelf to prove that NDEs are real"
"REAL?"
"Yes! Did you see any numbers?"
"Well I suppose I was pretty busy experiencing my whole life review so IT MIGHT HAVE KINDA SLIPPED MY MIND!"
:-D
They couldn't think of any other way than to get someone in what is the final moments of life to look at a poxy card while looking down on a medical team trying to resuscitate them?
This does not contribute to the reality of NDEs.
Interesting though. :-)
Why is it dubious for.? Alot of NDE describe see in doctors. And say you were doing this or you were doing that i was you. And Dr say's did you see that picture. And they did'nt. Why.?
Not all describe seeing doctors. Also many times the viewpoint is seen from a stationary point in any part of the room.
If you were undergoing the experience of dying... and for a brief second or 30.. you found yourself staring down from the corner of the room... and all these people are rushing around trying to save the life of this body, which is you then realise is you... then you suddenly got whisked off down a long tunnel with a light at the end... you arrive at the destination and it's a being of light or a dead relative.. and they shpw you love warmth and compassion... and then you are given a life review (which is a common occurrence)... then you were told or thought you are not ready... then you find yourself back in bed... and probably not conscious straight away...
Do you think you could remember a sequence of numbers that was placed on a shelf somewhere?
NDEs aren't always like the example I gave above.
Also.. it's not as though they come out float above their body, then zip back in, to wake up afterwards. There is a massive profound experience between then.
They probably didnt see it because they had much better things to worry about.
Where you getting a sequence of numbers from.? It' a simple picture.? I remember see you and nurse doing this it was all so clear. Can you describe crash cart next to me.It was in the room to next to me Yes. As clear as day. Could you tell me what it look like yes. What about the big picture on it.?
If you knew that you were dying or dead would you hang around a hospital room to read some numbers , or maby go to the astral garden to meet with passed on loved ones ? I dont think ever one choses to remember a N.D.E. on some unconscoious level . There is a story of some one at a hospital that had a N.D.E. they saw a pair of shews on a ledge , later a janitor found them . Many believe that we all go out of body at night during certain parts of sleep , but dont remember . The o.p. of this thread might want to read some of the other accounts of N.D.E.s there are quite a few . desert rat
Oh sorry... I'm getting mixed up with an OOBE test that was done that used a numbered card... that she got right btw. it's amazing how we make mistakes about relevant information in real life.
I still can't see how it proves in the afterlife. It may prove that people have a RTZ OOBE during the very first stages of death.
I still can't see how they would notice something so banal in the face of a life altering experience.
Here are some examples of NDEs
Dr. George Ritchie's near-death experience
"George leaves his body and sees it lying in his bed. He is not aware the dead body in his bed is his. Wanting eagerly to travel to Richmond, Virginia to start college, he finds himself flying in the air toward a city. He is not sure how he acquired these strange powers of flight and transparency. He arrives at a city and discovers he has lost his solidness. He flies back to the hospital and sees his lifeless body in the morgue and realizes he has died. "
http://www.near-death.com/ritchie.html
When all of Pam's vital signs were stopped, the doctor turned on a surgical saw and began to cut through Pam's skull. While this was going on, Pam reported that she felt herself "pop" outside her body and hover above the operating table. Then she watched the doctors working on her lifeless body for awhile. From her out-of-body position, she observed the doctor sawing into her skull with what looked to her like an electric toothbrush. Pam heard and reported later what the nurses in the operating room had said and exactly what was happening during the operation. At this time, every monitor attached to Pam's body registered "no life" whatsoever. At some point, Pam's consciousness floated out of the operating room and traveled down a tunnel which had a light at the end of it...
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html
Rev. George Rodonaia's Unusual NDE
The first thing I remember about my NDE is that I discovered myself in a realm of total darkness. I had no physical pain, I was still somehow aware of my existence as George, and all about me there was darkness, utter and complete darkness - the greatest darkness ever, darker than any dark, blacker than any black. This was what surrounded me and pressed upon me. I was horrified. I wasn't prepared for this at all. I was shocked to find that I still existed, but I didn't know where I was. The one thought that kept rolling through my mind was, "How can I be when I'm not?" That is what troubled me.
http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence10.html
Betty Eadie leaves her body through her chest and floats above her bed. Three hooded monk-like beings appear whom she identifies to be her guardian angels. They tell her that they have been with her for "eternities" and that she died prematurely. Concerned about her family that she left behind, she travels in spirit to her home to see them; but she discovers that she cannot be seen by them. Betty then returns to her body where her guardian angels are waiting for her.
http://www.near-death.com/eadie.html
Here is some further reading so that you know what I'm talking about..
http://icitizenpatriot.com/nde-stories/nde-archive/nde-archives-lists
This guy has done some N.D.E. work http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_Moody http://www.lifeafterlife.com/ and there is are some more that you can find with a web search . desert rat
3 year's there looked at 2500.heart attack cardiac arrest. Only 20% will say they had a NDE. The 500 who had a NED beetween 80 & 142. will say they remember being above there body's And looking down The images. Pictures have been set up for that.? And when interviewed will be asked what they remember. That's all it is. If it's not a false memory. If a NED is a real memory then the picture's should of be seen.
Ok maybe this so called test is done in a typical way of,
Work it out.
Parina
Invert the first and lose the last
Whats left 'about' is who's the test.
Think basic crossword.
Snd the name belongs to...
P.S. I think if the doctors told them " there are hidden objects in the room some where , if you do have a N.D.E. look for them and remember what they are ." The people had no idea that a Dr. put a poster with a message on it some where for them to find . Most people are going to watch the doctors . desert rat
Quote from: donnie on November 08, 2012, 11:09:44
3 year's there looked at 2500.heart attack cardiac arrest. Only 20% will say they had a NDE. The 500 who had a NED beetween 80 & 142. will say they remember being above there body's And looking down The images. Pictures have been set up for that.? And when interviewed will be asked what they remember. That's all it is. If it's not a false memory. If a NED is a real memory then the picture's should of be seen.
No... there is no should!! These are peoples personal deaths. not some tenuous scientific test.
There is enough evidence already to prove some sort of existence of consciousness... You surely had no time to read the links I provided.
Read them...and then you have a valid argument and something to back it up. I'm not being difficult... I'm just saying it's not as black and white as that.
With no real proof. That's why this was set up for.? Google Dr sam parnia.
Hear is the wiki on Sam Parina http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sam_Parnia There are some other sites on him . Many people that have had a N.D.E. that see loved ones , see them at 18 - 25 years of age not the age they last saw them , that does not make scence if it were just imagnation . desert rat
p.s. to the o.p. of this thread , maby you can learn to go out of body and see for your self , that is what this site , and many more are all about !
The experiences themselves are life changing to those who experience them.
It doesn't matter one iota what science thinks or believes... No one deserves to 'know' that it is real or not other than those who experience it.
Ssaxx... I am crap at crosswords... I got... darin... then got lost after the bit with 'about'. :-D
Ok, Ill give you a helpful clue.
About, means its an anagram.
The clue is, its a million dollar question.
The basic info presented reminds me of 'the answer'.
I think amost die in would be life changing any way.?
Lost a post,mmmm.
About denotes an anagram.
Its a million dollar question.
You dont haft to die to astral project . There are methods of medatation and self hypnosis . On Sam Parina , I dont get the anagram part either , but I think he is a real person . desert rat
Yes... totally donnie. So can you not see that picking and remembering a very unimportant detail whilst undergoing such a transformative experience would be very hit and miss?
I've read about Sam Parnia before.. he means well, but he is tackling it from the wrong side. I am just tackling this from one side also... assuming that this reality is solid. Working out that NDEs are real It's just not as simple as it seems because first 'real' has to be defined.
All his doing is see in if it's real or a false memory.
I know. But the short sightedness of science as a fragmentary thing won't find any answers to NDEs or metaphysical reality.
Say one person gets it right... does this prove that NDEs are real?
The short sightedness of science.? :?
Some things are hard to prove using science . Donnie how old are you , and what part of the world are you in ? Hear are some N.D.E. forums http://www.near-death-forums.com/ http://near-death.com/forum.html http://neardeath.ipbhost.com/ http://curezone.com/forums/f.asp?f=206 http://www.experienceproject.com/groups/Had-A-Near-Death-Experience/574 http://www.near-death.com/forum/nde/000/64.html http://lifeafterdeath.com/near-death-experiences/ http://nhneneardeath.ning.com/forum http://afterlifeforums.com/list.php/category/41-Near-Death-Experiences http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/science-religion/139925-neurosurgeons-seven-day-near-death-experience.html If some one broght back info from a N.D.E. lets say grand maw had a numbered Swiss bank act . and she gave you the number , would that be proof ? desert rat
p.s. I am a man , 55 , I live just west of Phoenix AZ U.S.A.
Quote from: donnie on November 08, 2012, 12:20:14
The short sightedness of science.? :?
When it comes to this subject... not the science that brings us microwave ovens, MP3 players and Furbees. :-D
I remember see you and nurse doing this it was all so clear. Can you describe crash cart next to me.It was in the room to next to me Yes. As clear as day. Could you tell me what it look like yes. What about the big picture on it.?
Yes i can. What was the picture.? It was a bike. Or no i can't. So then it's a real or false.
3 year's there looked at 2500.heart attack cardiac arrest. Only 20% will say they had a NDE. The 500 who had a NED beetween 80 & 142. will say they remember being above there body's And looking down The images. Pictures have been set up for that.? And when interviewed will be asked what they remember. That's all it is. If it's not a false memory. If a NED is a real memory then the picture's should of be seen. So what will prove or diss prove this. That's all it is.
NDEs are a real memory... or there would be nothing to remember.
But... if ONE person gets it right.. does this mean that it is real... to you
Would this satisfy the scientific community?
If TWO people get it right... is this proof?
Now... say you are involved in this situation... yet there is NO NDE... you were part of the 80%... would you believe that NDEs are 'real'?
They could be a dream. OMG That's why they have set this up. See the picture it's real. Don't see the picture it's a dream. Get it.?
No I clearly don't.
I have had a almost a lifes worth of Out of Body Experiences... many are similar to the 'being out of body' bit reported during NDEs... so really... I am seeing it from a totally different perspective than you.
We are both tinkling against the wind.
*EDIT*
lol tinklng? I meant urinating. That pretty much ruins a very good 'saying'... lame
80 & 142. will say they remember being above there body's And looking down The images. Pictures. Parnia is going to publish all his results.
Ok prove it.?
Absolutely NOT!! :-D
Got to back up up.? And when some try's to. All you go on about is sightedness of science. WTF
lol
You take the biscuit... I don't understand half of that last message.
How can I prove to you that I have had an OOBE?
Bedeekin Stop trollin no my post.
This isn't trolling... Trolling isn't disagreeing... trolling is where someone just says anything to annoy a GROUP... not a single person.
You obviously aren't interested in this subject nor have you any intention of being interested.
I have tried to point your question in a direction that ACTUALLY means something within the context of this forum.
I listed some links for you to actually get some knowledge on the subject. Neither have you listened to anyone else.
I'm done.
To Donnie , it would be my guess that you are either a kid , some one that likes to argue , or on drugs . The near death experiences are worth discussing . Too many people have had them and got info that could not have been faked . No one is trolling you . desert rat
To everyone.....
Let us discuss this nicely and not play the prove it to me card. If NDE wasn't valid and was dismissed as
a facade we wouldn't be here discussing this post...;-)
Between science and religion, out of body consciousness there is so much to this for study, time, and patience to consider. Three years is not enough and I believe honestly (even if) science proves NDE's are real you will still have the debates and arguments.
It all sides in the one who has experienced the OBE or NDE that authorizes the legitimacy for their own knowing. Still the experiencer should test, research, and judge from all angles after the experience.
From all I know and I have been at this for over 25+ years now that there is definitely something out there that and we do continue on.
Please review site: http://www.nderf.org/ and read the NDE accounts.
I encourage you to challenge everything in the NDE'rs experience but also to ask yourself personally. Did I experience this? In other words, remember your first kiss? What was the experience like? For some fireworks, others
the world shake, maybe nothing felt. We all feel different towards experiences *however* looking at the consistencies in the NDE experiences - this gives a lot of weight towards validation.....
All the best and please be kind to each other. We all are driving at the truth and want to learn. In that, we can
learn from each other...
Dave
Quote from: David Warner on November 08, 2012, 14:03:20
Between science and religion, out of body consciousness there is so much to this for study, time, and patience to consider. Three years is not enough and I believe honestly (even if) science proves NDE's are real you will still have the debates and arguments.
Absolutely.
It won't satisfy those who haven't had a conscious experience during near death.
Hi,
The answer to this dilemma is simple.
Donnie, learn the art.
To see this for yourself done in a way suitable and mentored step by step.
Your mind will wake to an experience that opens up everything.
Experience the wider reality for yourself. You will undeniably have your answer and truth.
Are you interested?
This thread is not a pick on Donnie or who's right/wrong..
What it is about is being open to discussion, kind and respecting each other's beliefs and values.
Like I said earlier in my post - we can throw all the theories, scientific explanations at OBE NDE but
still it is in the experience and credibility of consistencies of the one who does take the time
to research and first hand experience.
Donnie - I don't know your background or research that you have done on the subject of NDE or OBE. Have
you ever experienced any of this? Please look at it this way too. You go to college, graduate and are educated. Have the big diploma sitting on your wall of graduating. But you don't have the experience and consistencies
of research, validations of the business world. So w/o the experience and only have book smarts, we can't go any further til you have done the work yourself. Also, you can't dismiss it quick in three years when this has been a on-going study, research for decades...
I do believe science is getting closer to realizing that survival after death is legitimate and it will be proven. However, you will still have debates and arguments.
Thank You,
Dave
Sam Parnia's new book on this research comes out in Feb 2013. I have no doubt he is withholding his results until he has sold a few copies of his new book. Shame, because we have been waiting for the results for a couple of years now.
To be 100% fair the doctors should of told people that were part of this study , during a hart attack or before an operation that there was a sine some where with a mesage on it . If they do go out of body read it, and remember what it states . desert rat
Quote from: desert-rat on November 10, 2012, 14:26:01
To be 100% fair the doctors should of told people that were part of this study , during a hart attack or before an operation that there was a sine some where with a mesage on it . If they do go out of body read it, and remember what it states . desert rat
During a Heart Attack the last thing a person is going to be concerned with is trying to look at a card in a room. They are experiencing extreme trauma and would most likely not be thinking rationally. It's better if they reported something strange or unique when it was unexpected. That way it's easier for the doctor to verify a real experience. But, there has to be a better way to verify than just using a card on a higher shelf, etc. Maybe they should try smiley faces on the tops of their surgeon caps. Make it fun! :-)
I still think it is a totally redundant test.
Parnia means well and it will be interesting what he reveals... but it won't prove a damn thing. If 1 or 20 people get it right... there will still be those who didn't have a conscious NDE who won't believe.
Quote from: donnie on November 08, 2012, 09:50:01
At 18 hospitals in the U.S. and U.K., researchers have suspended pictures, face up, from the ceilings in emergency-care areas. The reason: to test whether patients brought back to life after cardiac arrest can recall seeing the images during an out-of-body experience.
People who have these near-death experiences often describe leaving their bodies and watching themselves being resuscitated from above, but verifying such accounts is difficult. The images would be visible only to people who had done that. This study started back in oct 08 And ended in oct 12. 20% of people have a
cardiac arrest have a NDE.
I think Dr sam parnia objective & made the study bulletproof. Over the last 3 year's there looked at 2500.heart attack cardiac arrest. 20% will say they had a NDE. The 500 should see the hidden images. If not why not.? W soon find out if NDE are real or false.
Its already been done.
I think his name his name is Doctor Jeffery Long or Johnston? He is an oncologist and has collated information form several thousand accounts of NDE with his patients and he says he has more empirical evidence to say that life exists beyond the physical form than to say that it doesn't. I have had an NDE and apart from me knowing that is what happened, I was also able to see plenty of stuff that was happening, but I ddnt stay with my body I was off and away, so I wouldn't have noticed any pictures in the hospital room, so I don't believe that the picture in the room is going to work every time, but it may....I personally dont think I would give monkeys toss about a picture of some one in the room if I had just died...just saying :-)
Well the test appears to be in good spirit. What I can't understand is why a doctor with a high IQ came up with a test of such nature to be comparable the one of Randi exercises? Its not in the best possible taste.
A detailed patient and doctor conversation explaining the risks and percentage survival rate of the op to start would have occured. Then a psycological assessment of their reaction would indicate further conversation into this study a good idea or not.
By saying nothing the results are immediately biased into a low probability resulting in unusable data. You can't postulate anything as fact and figures unless stringent regulatory practises are adhered to. A doctor should know this.
Unless the reported basics are in error, I can't follow the results with certainty.
Is he a friend of big James?
Quote from: Szaxx on November 10, 2012, 21:21:33
Well the test appears to be in good spirit.
I agree its great that docs are interested and want to give it a look. Im not sure this face up pics will work, but maybe someone just outa body may think what the heck do they have a picture facing up for ?? So the fact that its a oddity might draw someones attention or plain freak them out ! LOL
hold on so this study has finished officially? has there actually been any sort of official site or something else declaring their results or findings? seems no one knows for sure what the results even were.
The study finished at least a year ago. we have been waiting for Sam Parnia's results for all that time. He keeps pushing the release date back. As I said, he has written a new book based on this study and that will be released in Feb 2013. I think Parnia is sympathetic to NDEs. But as I recall, the new book is about explaining how consciousness can occur during zero blood flow conditions, rather than whether we survive physical death. From that I am guessing the test results showed that (1) Not many or any people identified the cards but (2) there were cases of heightened lucid consciousness during cardiac arrest which require explaining.
On Dr. Jeffery Long http://www.nderf.org/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffery_D._Long there are a bunch more that are easy to find . A hospital could post a sine stating that they were doing research and there were unusual items hidden in the room near the ceiling if any one has a N.D.E. look for them and remember what they are . Like a gumby , gi-joe , or barbie doll in a box , not a normal item and easy to remember . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gumby desert rat
Everyone keeps trying to prove what is real when they fail to question their basic assumptions on what is real. I think if people understood what the here-now is they wouldn't call it real or any less real than a dream.
A constrained and persistent interactive dream!
Almost a virtual reality.
Then again, lets see who knows for real, whats real anyway. Really interesting... :wink:
Last four comments 8-)
So this scientist guy will divulge the findings in a book, no doubt for sale. This somewhat bothers me and personally lowers my reliability and trust in the person as I feel this was possibly the reason for himself to do the study originally so he could collect the info and cash in on a book about it. Also he may twist and exagerate his findings to make them sound more positive so not to give the book a sort of anti-climax.
Wish he hurry up with it though the damn thing ended over a year ago just freakin let everyone know already!!! why totally everything gotta be about money these days?
I will not be spending my money on that book . 1) its probably boring , 2) There are other things I could buy 3) I am not sure how accurate it is 4) There is a good chance it will be posted on a torrent site any way . desert rat
Quote from: Tongo on November 30, 2012, 13:07:19
So this scientist guy will divulge the findings in a book, no doubt for sale. This somewhat bothers me and personally lowers my reliability and trust in the person as I feel this was possibly the reason for himself to do the study originally so he could collect the info and cash in on a book about it. Also he may twist and exagerate his findings to make them sound more positive so not to give the book a sort of anti-climax.
Tis the way of the World we live in my friend. Once in awhile you find someone that truly feels this info should be shared freely with others. Actually you can find a number of people on this very website here that believe that. But, something has to pay the bills. :wink:
The guy (Sam Parnia) is fairly solid. I've watched a few of his utube vids, and he always seems to talk a lot of sense. But as Lionheart said, we all have bills to pay. I think the results of his study will be basically inconclusive.
hope they made the signs big enough to read for any short-sighted NDEer, like this one:
(http://www.near-death.com/images/graphics/hospital/veridical%20operation%20cartoon/you_are_dead.jpg)
A sine could be posted above the operating table , like the bumper stickers that say "if you can read this your too close " . The one above the table could read " if you can read this you are dead " desert rat
p.s. any one that did go out of body and see the sine would remember something like that .
there's indeed no mention of any number/signs reading, but it seems a very positive outcome anyway, at least that's the way it's sold to the public ...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-24509/Near-death-patients-afterlife.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CC_2yzqUVs
the book:
http://www.amazon.com/Erasing-Death-Science-Rewriting-Boundaries/dp/0062080601
Thanks for the links Volgerle. Confusingly, Sam Parnia is publishing another new book TODAY here it is
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Lazarus-Effect-Rewriting-Boundaries/dp/1846043077
Called "The Lazarus Effect". I thought this book was based on the multi centre study, but we are all a bit in the dark about this study and its findings.
The Daily Mail article was very interesting. Sam Parnia seems to be nailing his colours to the mast somewhat. He seems to be coming down rather more on the "consciousness survives death" side than he has done in the past.
Oh, OK so it seems that your link Volgerle ("Erasing Death") is the American version of my link ("The Lazarus Effect"). They are the same book. So we already have a review of "The Lazrus Effect":
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/1846043077/
Here is a quote from this review:
"However, many, would have bought this book to learn about results from the AWARE study and Dr Parnia does not disappoint. I will not put a spoiler in, particularly relating to any evidence supporting the out of body experience, but he does discuss some tantalizing initial findings"
Guess I will have to buy the book!
This guy was on coast to coast the other night . His research is more from the science point of view . I dont think he is trying to prove that when a person has a n.d.e. they are going to the astral . If I understand him corectly the experence is from dying brain cells or some thing like that . http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guest/parnia-dr-sam/6684 desert rat
Quote from: desert-rat on March 07, 2013, 17:35:11
This guy was on coast to coast the other night . His research is more from the science point of view . I dont think he is trying to prove that when a person has a n.d.e. they are going to the astral . If I understand him corectly the experence is from dying brain cells or some thing like that . http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guest/parnia-dr-sam/6684 desert rat
Unfortunately you are right Desert-Rat. He has certainly changed his tune.
I heard the interview as well and was very disappointed that he has changed his approach. :cry:
It must have been due to the pressure of his peers. He probably didn't like being criticized and ridiculed.
Either that or the left side of his brain kicked in and shut out everything the right had learned! :wink:
He is just using the "I come to bury Ceasar not to praise him" technique. Camouflaging his intent by making uncontroversial scientific noises, whilst occasionally slipping in occasional "distinct possibility that mind can survive brain death" noises.
Quote from: desert-rat on March 07, 2013, 17:35:11
This guy was on coast to coast the other night . His research is more from the science point of view . I dont think he is trying to prove that when a person has a n.d.e. they are going to the astral . If I understand him corectly the experence is from dying brain cells or some thing like that . http://www.coasttocoastam.com/guest/parnia-dr-sam/6684 desert rat
Are we really talking about the same guy / project / interview / book?
If you mention C-to-C must be the same interview I linked above from youtube already, yes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0CC_2yzqUVs
Sorry guys, but I do not understand your interpretation or pessimism. He clearly and repeatedly states there (plus in the articles too) that he believes it to be evidence for the afterlife and absolutely leaves no doubt about this. Has anyone REALLY listened to the interview? He very CLEARLY says this!
He's one of the good guys now. :-D :wink:
We should not forget that there is a second more "materialistic" topic which is also the main issue for him in his professional work, and this is to bring medical CPR to a level of technology to literally raise the (brain)dead people again (reactivating brain cells, cooling people, etc.). He's a doctor after all.
That however does not touch upon the second issue, the evidence for the many NDEs and OBEs. Making CPR yet better of course will produce ever more NDE data, which is the advantage he wants to use.
He also explained (in this interview) how difficult it is to make the sign reading experiment since only a very small percentage of the whole sample was patients revived in a surgery where there was a picture brought up. In most cases there wasn't the opportunity given in one of those rooms he says, but he also announces some astonishing finds but that might be left in the book. (It's all in the interview where he breaks down the statistics a little).
Well I think Volgerle has it exactly right. Sam Parnia is basically one of the "good guys". But he has to maintain his reputation as a credible scientist, and after all he actually is a credible scientist. So he is involved in uncontroversial medical research, which maintains his reputation. This allows him to speak on the mind/brain issue, suggest mind can exist independent of brain, and still be taken seriously.
On Sam Parnia on coast to coast , I listened to coast to coast on xm ch 168 . I slept through part of it so I might not of heard him saying that he believed in an after life . I do remember about an hour where he described a more biological view of life. desert rat p.s. http://h33t.com/torrent/5010583/coast-to-coast-am-02-27-13-weather-control-ndes-h33t
On re listening to the inter view with Sam Parnia , being fully awake this time . He did address the n.d.e. experence , stating something like people will report seeing passed on loved ones , a being of light , God , having a life review , ect. depending on personal beliefs . On proof , there is a story of Mark MacDonell , a British M.P. he was sick in bed , but appeared before Parlment in his astral body to cast his vote . If true this will be on reccord . ( on pg 49 Llewellyn's astral projection book isbn # 0-87542-181-4) No date is given for the event , I am searching on line to see if any thing is there on this . desert rat
desert-rat, I would be interested if you could find any more info on that MP. The case is well known in AP folklore, but it would be good to see if it holds up to scrutiny!
The name Mark MacDonell , does not apear on the wiki list of U.K. M.P. list , but they state its an incomplete list . There is a John McDonnell , but I think thats some one else . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom_MPs:_M. This is off topic for this thread , I may start a new one on this . desert rat
Actually the name Mark MacDonnell doesn't sound correct to me, the politician I had in mind was someone fairly famous. It will meaning pouring over my old AP books to try to find the name. But I will have a quick look to see if can find it!
I've actually read a few thinks about Dr. Parnia and he absolutely believes in an afterlife although he is uncommitted to what it actually is.
He read a few studies where people reported that they floated above their bodies during surgeries and such and some said they could actually see above the ceiling in the crawl space where the wiring and ac ducts run. This gave him the idea about placing photos and other things up there to see if the people who made these claims could report back on them. Other doctors already had the same idea in one form or another.
Of course many people do not have RTZ experiences and so their cases would not apply but he has gathered some convincing data.
Quote from: catmeow on March 09, 2013, 15:25:28
Actually the name Mark MacDonnell doesn't sound correct to me, the politician I had in mind was someone fairly famous. It will meaning pouring over my old AP books to try to find the name. But I will have a quick look to see if can find it!
This is the name on pg 49 of the book I listed. It states he appeared in the British house of commons for 2 days , while his body was helpless in bed . He recorded his vote in an aproved manner . It is possable that it is just a story , or the name could be off a bit . It is also possable that the British removes references to this event . desert rat
Hi desert-rat
OK, so I found the case you mentioned, in H F Prevost Battersby's "Man Outside Himself" P13. Incredibly you can read the relevant parts of the book here, with Mark Macdonnell's name highlighted:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HnR4fAhGJ3gC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=dr+mark+macdonnell+mp&source=bl&ots=oIucT09yz0&sig=Jq0OAiofjEzR4N9yS80bfWE7cU4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aU9Ub_NHIOv7AaJq4CIAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=dr%20mark%20macdonnell%20mp&f=false (http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HnR4fAhGJ3gC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=dr+mark+macdonnell+mp&source=bl&ots=oIucT09yz0&sig=Jq0OAiofjEzR4N9yS80bfWE7cU4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4aU9Ub_NHIOv7AaJq4CIAQ&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=dr%20mark%20macdonnell%20mp&f=false)
He says:
"Dr. Mark Macdonnell was another who, while ill in bed, appeared in the House, was seen by fellow members on two consecutive days, actually entered the Division Lobby and recorded his vote. ... The case of Dr Macdonnell did, indeed, come in for a certain amount of comment in the Press, but seems not even to have been a nine days' wonder."
Dr Mark Macdonnell was a British MP for the constituency of Queen's County Leix between 1892 and 1906:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen's_County_Leix_(UK_Parliament_constituency) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen's_County_Leix_(UK_Parliament_constituency))
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/mark_macdonnell/queen's_county_leix (http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/mark_macdonnell/queen's_county_leix)
That's what a quick Google search returned. He was a real MP and his doppelganger appearance was reported in the press at that time. He apparently recorded his vote whilst ill in bed. So either an impersonater who looked like him did it, it was a real AP, or else it is just some kind of folklore.
Personally I am amazed that you can read the book on line.
Some one appearing in there astral body before the British house of commons should be proof of the astral body , but as this was a bit over 100 years ago , I dont know if ever one would accept it . I guess some one would need to be witnessed before the U.S. congress or the U.N. in there astral body . "The chair recolonizes James ****** form AZ (me) " that would be interesting . desert rat
They'd probably be labeled as a terrorist :/
OK so I bought Sam Parnia's book "The Lazarus Effect" but haven't had time to read it yet. I can say that Sam Parnia knows his stuff. The book has a bibliography at the back, of suggested reading, and this lists about 500 titles and publications, concerned with cardiac arrest, brain death, consciousness, soul and NDE. The book looks interesting, and towards the end, there is a chapter on the AWARE study.
Skimming through this, there aren't many results given, the AWARE study results are now due in September/October 2013! However, there are anecdotes from medical professionals which are clearly puzzling.
This link
http://www.horizonresearch.org/main_page.php?cat_id=279
explains that the AWARE study is ongoing and will be expanded in the future, rather than shut down, in order to get more results.
What do I make of this? Firstly Sam Parnia is clearly a believer and a man on a mission. I'm guessing he had some interesting results from the AWARE study, but not sufficient for general release at the moment. He keeps pushing the end date back, in order to get more (or perhaps any) conclusive positive results. If Sam were a committed skeptic, he would have shut down the study years ago and announced failure. But he isn't doing that.
He is going to get the proof he believes in, even if it takes another decade. There are many doctors, who like Sam, have seen things they can't explain in cardiac arrest patients...
As I pointed out in other posts on this thread Dr Raymond Moody has done a lot of research . http://www.near-death.com/experiences/experts03.html but more research would be fine with me . I have wondered if the o.p. of this thread was Dr Sam Prnia , or some one on his research staff . desert rat