OBE's... spiritual or psychological phenomenon?

[Ben K]

The problem is, alpha, that science isnt to the point were we can provide this "proof" to the general population. We're getting there, in 20 to 40 years everyone will be "projecting" through the use of computer software and all this stuff will be common knowledge.

Also, its not smart to think of hallucinations as "not real." when you do project you will be seeing ALOT of hallucinations as they are just products of your emotions.

[dingo]

The problem is, alpha, that science isnt to the point were we can provide this "proof" to the general population. We're getting there, in 20 to 40 years everyone will be "projecting" through the use of computer software and all this stuff will be common knowledge.

Also, its not smart to think of hallucinations as "not real." when you do project you will be seeing ALOT of hallucinations as they are just products of your emotions.

You could, with modern techniques, scientifically prove that information gained during an RTZ OBE is correct. Just because it isn't in the general scientific consensus doesn't mean it can't be proved.

[The AlphaOmega]

I would agree that the most accurate way to test the validity of OBE would probably be conducted in the RTZ.  I realize that Monroe did conduct many of his own personal experiments with the RTZ with some hopeful results.  One in which he went OOB and traveled to his office to lightly pinch his secretary.  The result was that he pinched quite hard and gave her a bruise.  Unless it were a hoax (which wouldn't be all that difficult to pull off) instances such as that would be very hard to explain away as not real.  As far as hallucinations however I don't think it would be "not smart" to say they are not real.  That would bring us deep into philosophy I imagine, but basically it's an argument as to whether or not truth and perception are the same thing.  Some would say that because you see something it must be there, because at least it's true for that one individual.  The counterpoint is that if we see something that isn't there that doesn't mean the object is true, but that perception has been altered away from truth.  I would argue that hallucinations are not truth but that the individual experiencing them is being decieved, mainly by him or herself.  To hear voices doesn't mean that anyone is talking to you but that the mind has somehow triggered within itself that act which it would undertake if someone were actually talking to you.  The brain is decieved and the hallucination of the voices is not truth.  It could be said that if OBE are in fact real then the RTZ would most likely be the most reliable info because it can be varified, whereas traveling to other dimensions or speaking with dead relatives could be the mind undertaking the same act as it would in dreams or hallucinations, and therefor potentially be "not real".

[Ben K]

The problem is, alpha, that science isnt to the point were we can provide this "proof" to the general population. We're getting there, in 20 to 40 years everyone will be "projecting" through the use of computer software and all this stuff will be common knowledge.

Also, its not smart to think of hallucinations as "not real." when you do project you will be seeing ALOT of hallucinations as they are just products of your emotions.

You could, with modern techniques, scientifically prove that information gained during an RTZ OBE is correct. Just because it isn't in the general scientific consensus doesn't mean it can't be proved.

no, but proof isnt the factor here, its belief. you can give a scientist as many undocumented cases of people proving something in the RTZ you want and they wont care. as long as its not done in a lab using scientific method it is garbage in the eyes of science.

[Ben K]

I would agree that the most accurate way to test the validity of OBE would probably be conducted in the RTZ.  I realize that Monroe did conduct many of his own personal experiments with the RTZ with some hopeful results.  One in which he went OOB and traveled to his office to lightly pinch his secretary.  The result was that he pinched quite hard and gave her a bruise.  Unless it were a hoax (which wouldn't be all that difficult to pull off) instances such as that would be very hard to explain away as not real.  As far as hallucinations however I don't think it would be "not smart" to say they are not real.  That would bring us deep into philosophy I imagine, but basically it's an argument as to whether or not truth and perception are the same thing.  Some would say that because you see something it must be there, because at least it's true for that one individual.  The counterpoint is that if we see something that isn't there that doesn't mean the object is true, but that perception has been altered away from truth.  I would argue that hallucinations are not truth but that the individual experiencing them is being decieved, mainly by him or herself.  To hear voices doesn't mean that anyone is talking to you but that the mind has somehow triggered within itself that act which it would undertake if someone were actually talking to you.  The brain is decieved and the hallucination of the voices is not truth.  It could be said that if OBE are in fact real then the RTZ would most likely be the most reliable info because it can be varified, whereas traveling to other dimensions or speaking with dead relatives could be the mind undertaking the same act as it would in dreams or hallucinations, and therefor potentially be "not real".

For all intents and purposes, hallucinations are indeed real. But many people have adopted a way of thinking that suggests whats in your mind is somehow NOT real. Your thoughts are just as real as the keyboard your typing on. You just arent percieving the energies the same way.

I think it all stems from the belief that your mind = your brain. They are two VERY different things that serve very different purposes. after all its not your mind controlling the keys you type on when you are entering a message on the keyboard, its your brain. your mind is just telling your brain what to type.

[Sepultura123]

I would agree that the most accurate way to test the validity of OBE would probably be conducted in the RTZ.  I realize that Monroe did conduct many of his own personal experiments with the RTZ with some hopeful results.  One in which he went OOB and traveled to his office to lightly pinch his secretary.  The result was that he pinched quite hard and gave her a bruise.  Unless it were a hoax (which wouldn't be all that difficult to pull off) instances such as that would be very hard to explain away as not real.  As far as hallucinations however I don't think it would be "not smart" to say they are not real.  That would bring us deep into philosophy I imagine, but basically it's an argument as to whether or not truth and perception are the same thing.  Some would say that because you see something it must be there, because at least it's true for that one individual.  The counterpoint is that if we see something that isn't there that doesn't mean the object is true, but that perception has been altered away from truth.  I would argue that hallucinations are not truth but that the individual experiencing them is being decieved, mainly by him or herself.  To hear voices doesn't mean that anyone is talking to you but that the mind has somehow triggered within itself that act which it would undertake if someone were actually talking to you.  The brain is decieved and the hallucination of the voices is not truth.  It could be said that if OBE are in fact real then the RTZ would most likely be the most reliable info because it can be varified, whereas traveling to other dimensions or speaking with dead relatives could be the mind undertaking the same act as it would in dreams or hallucinations, and therefor potentially be "not real".

I have to agree that you have good points there and if the pinch is not a hoax , its incredible.

[David Warner]

Ap Friends,

I had to jump into this discussion and throw out my own .2 on the issue.

Anytime that we project, leave our bodies, subjectively share our experiences, try to validate and prove that it was real or not. It should be exercised carefully and questioned. It is healthy and natural to question the validation if there is an external world inside/outside.

I do think the best way to go about this is to go the distance and keep track of experiences, scientific experiments, validations, and share your findings with the forum.

We are all trying to prove that there is life after death thru oobe. We can't ignore these experiences because they happen and there are common threads to them. Also, we need to look at the NDE (near death experiences) and what that has stirred. They are so many cases of validations it can't be ignored or passed off as a mental state of being.

Here's a link that you can read up on and judge for youself:

http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=21918&highlight=

Another link that CNN posted today that deffinitely shows interest:
http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22082
http://www.cnn.com/2006/LAW/02/10/political.whodunit.ap/index.html



Tvos

[The_Rabbi]

Who says the two need be separate?

In my opinion, the spiritual and psychological are both being controlled by the same phenomenon.

The brain is just an interface we use to interact with the physical plane.

[mrloki]

the_rabbi i couldnt agree with you more at this point

[Sepultura123]

Exactly

[MisterJingo]

I agree with TVOS that the OBE phenomenon seems to allow experiences which appear to be outside of our current scientific understanding.
I myself have a desire to explore the OBE state deeper due to some things which I cannot explain.
But to say things like the brain is just an interface is a desire and a belief. There really is no way of knowing such a thing at this point in time, so for now, we carry on exploring within an objective framework.
An equally feasible possibility is that the mind is an emergent property from brain activity, and OBEs are reliant on a living brain i.e. death brings oblivion. There could be many hypothesis which are as feasible as the current OBE 'after death survival' belief systems which could explain how we seem to move outside of our body, how we seem to contact dead people and how we seem to gain knowledge outside of our immediate locale.

But as things stand, either way we don't know. To hold one view without proof is to stifle discovery. Not pointing at any forum in particular, but a lot of spiritual based forums seems to go in hysterics when you mention science or objectivity. People see them as threats and would rather explore and exist in the belief systems they have built. I would rather find the 'truth' however much unpalatable it might turn out to be.
So rather than defend one position or another, we should find ways of testing the validity of the OBE state and producing some form of reproducible experiments which will further our knowable of the state and, hopefully, draw scientific interest and funding to this area. I'm not fooling myself that such things will happen any time soon, but without making a start, that day will never come.
Also, regardless of the deeper implications of the OBE state, the fact such a state can be experienced at all is enough for further research imo.