Phasing out spiritual growth

[Paukki]

Hey James,
When I first started looking into RV and AP within the last year or so, it was mainly for the adventure of it.  The same old routines were getting stale.  It seems to be a pattern in my life, however, that a more serious side to my quests always comes forward somehow, some way.  I was lucky to find a relatively cheap course in RV right away, and this find seemed to be even luckier in that there was a sense of some depth to it that goes beyond the carnival tent.  True, I haven't always felt lucky about this find; sometimes I've grumbled.  But there is a certain assurance that comes with the idea that perhaps there is some truth and maturity at the forefront of one's involvements.  I had hardly joined the small, but growing "Grillflame" forum for people interested in rv (and other things, but rv at the center of it), when a message was posted that assured me I don't want to just "dabble" with the spirit world.  Your own message, James, reminded me of that post, which can be found at the following link:  
http://www.mindsafari.com/The%20Small%20Little%20Voice%20Within.htm
--Paukki

[Jeff_Mash]

Hey there James....

quote:Originally posted by James S:
I'm not trying to play off two different sources of OBE techniques here. I'm just using them to make a point. R.B. seems to be more concerned with helping people grow spiritually. TMI seem to be more concerned with taking money from people to expand their research into consciousness. Lets face it, exactly what do they give away for the betterment of others?

I hear where you're coming from, because I feel the same way.  However, I have a slightly different view on things.  

One, I understand why some people would requre money for OBE related tools.  For example, publishing books and materials (like Robert and TMI do) cost money, so I can see why one would charge something for people to have them.  In my own personal example, I am developing software for OBE'ers to use to record and track their experiences.  When it's finished and tested, I would like to sell this product.  Does that make me a cruel, capitalistic person for wanting some money for my hard work and effort?  I don't think it does.  However, what I won't do is charge an arm and leg for it, because I'm not trying to get rich off of it.  If one tries to get rich off of something, then they start to become too materialistic and consequently, lose purpose for why they made their products in the first place.

So I have nothing against TMI or anyone else who tries to see me something which would further my spiritual growth.  What I do have a problem with is when these same people hike up the prices to ridiculous amounts, or giving false hope to people that their products will somehow make projecting an overnight success.

quote:
What do you think is the main purpose in astral projection? Are we truly becoming better people if we are simply to learn a quicker way into the astral to use according to our desires? Or should we be seeking to better ourselves by taking the time involved in energy development and other more traditional projection techniques?

Personally, I use my AP experience as a way to become a better person all around.  My experiences have opened up my eyes to many things, which has carried over into the physical world.  I find myself being more understanding of people and their situations, because I know that there are other battles they must be dealing with in non-physical realms.

Using any external tools (tapes, books, etc) to help me achieve my goal to AP at will is welcomed with open arms.  Now, there are people out there who desire to AP only to spy on people and be devisive.  But what goes around, comes around, and they will reap what they sow.  Karma has a strange way of catching up to people!

And to me, phasing doesn't seem to take away from any spiritual growth that would come from traditional OBE's.  Both types of experiences involve your full waking consciousness, and it's that alone (the expansion of your consciousness) which allows you to learn and grow from the experience.


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Lysear]

I don't think that the method of astral projection is particularly important. The important thing is getting there then learning when your there. (although I'm no there yet!!!)

p.s can anyone describe phasing to me in a simple sentence it just seems the same as normal projection!!

[Jeff_Mash]

quote:Originally posted by Lysear:
p.s can anyone describe phasing to me in a simple sentence it just seems the same as normal projection!!

In a simple sentence?  Ok.....here it goes.  Phasing is to normal projections as microwaves are to traditional oven cooking.  http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>


Keep smiling,

Jeff Mash
MyJokeMail.com - Jokes and Humor
http://myjokemail.com

[Blossom]

I think this is touchy subject...

I have lots of thoughts on this but I am going to voice only a few here..  I absolutely agree however in all aspects of what James S said, but on the otherhand I see the point of the replies..

We all have to find our own way..  And realize that not everyone who wants to OBE feels that they are on a spiritual journey.  They may not see it yet but they will eventually.. We are all going to the same place but our modes are all different and where we are is different also...  

I am inclined to believe however that the tone of the forum has changed just in the length of time I have been here..  But then again, maybe the forum hasn't changed.  Maybe I have changed in my thinking and so it only seems different ..

I find great pleasure in raising energy and going the long route to a place in all areas of my life.  I think anything really worthwhile is never easy because of the learning process along the way .. If it was easy, everyone would be able to do it..  

For me personally, the sound of something playing interferes with my concentration unless it is the drone of a fan in the background to ease the outside noise... I like moving inward of my own methods..

The learning process by which we all choose to go by is not as much as an issue with me as the making fun of people when they ask questions as I have seen some do.  How do we know when someone is being genuine?  Who are we to judge others and find humor in their alledged sencerity? I find it sad when I read some of these types of posts..  

And as far as the commercialization of products... It is a way of life..  We as people will contribute to this on an individual level or we won't..

Sincerely,
Blossom

p.s.  And to my taste buds, nothing tastes better than a oven roasted potato.. yum...

[OahnMacleod]

But what is the focus or goal of the OOBE and Astral journey for all of you?

It's the attitude my father use to carry when I was growing up as a kid. I would mention spirits, or ghosts, or UFO's and his reply to it all was, "But who is going to pay the bills, the taxes and put food on the table?" He was a great dad as far as a family man who always paid the bills but not the kind of flake who dropped acid and dropped out and who might have better encouraged me in my spiritual pursuits.

The point I'm getting at is that I know for myself, I am seriously looking at Robert Bruce's material first and foremost as I too was put off by the 'commercialization' of TMI and other's in the new age and metaphysical cirlcles. Moreso, the experience itself, (and I only speak for myself here), has to be more than just a fascinating experience, occurring simply to bolster my ego so that I develop some kind of messiah complex and can brag to others, "Look what I can do!" Thankfully, what I have found in this forum so far is people that looking to expand their knowledge, advance their thinking, and aren't afraid to share and collaborate on shared experiences and gleen whatever useful information they can off one another. God, if the business world worked like this...we'd end about 99% of the world's resources and socio-economic problems.

Perhaps I am limited in my understanding of the OOBE phenomena, but if one of the focuses is simply out of your physical body and unhibited travel in through our existant world, could this ability not be better used in areas like finding missing children, or remote viewing or finding acheologic digs of important significance?

And as for money, if it was ever used the way it was meant, as an exchange of power for services rendered (i.e.= The doctor pays $50 to the garbage man who pays $50 to the dentist who pays $50 to the grocer who needs $50 to go to the doctor's), then we would live in a world that worked a bit more fair. When you impede and hoard that money to one person (i.e. greed?) would that not disrupt the flow of it and therefore create a defecit in other's lives who would better benefit by getting a chance to use it as well? Is not the same true with the gift of the OOBE abilities to some degree? What if it has far more untapped potential, like seeing things on the energetic level before it becomes manifest on the physical level, (like illness?) and preventing it, or in helping others to awakening to the experience by contacting them in the etheric or astral planes and acting as an activator by energetic association, (like the 100th monkey theory?).

Again, perhaps I have too many grand ideas for the design of OOBE and Astral travel, but I don't want to close my mind off to the possibilities of doing more than entertaining myself if it means others can benefit from it as well...

To James S, when you are ready to form an A-Team of sorts on the other side, let me know if I can apply! : )

Sincerely,
John

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone!

One of the most important aspects of Astral travel is to confirm,at first hand, that life really does continue after the death of the physical body.

Two of the nemesis of mankind right now, and it is getting worse, are materialism (including avarice, greed, power etc.) and dogmatic religion.

The latter is due to ongoing conditioning and fear generated by the popular churches, and is one of the main reasons so many people get stuck in belief system territories of the Astral after they pass on.

Those that do not believe in the continuity of life, live this life as if it were there only life, and hence the materialism, greed, selfishness and other afflictions of physical life. People simply do not see any reason to live their lives in the context of a major opportunity to progress in the eternal scheme of things. If people were to realise the impact of the way they live their lives on what happens after they pass on, and for all eternity, then clearly the whole human race, and the planet would be much better off all round.

So establishment of the continuity of the eternal spirit and its onwards progression is a big turning point, and Astral travel can provide that.

As for commercialism of Spiritual issues of any kind - I am totally and fundamentally against it! E-Books cost nothing to produce and distribute, and the lessons therein would reach and benefit orders of magnitude more people. Charging anything for Spiritually oriented books is to put money - the ultimate symbol of materialism - before the entire human race.

Book writers can make their books E-Books for free download. Monroe could make MP3's and video's for free download. Courses could be made free by streaming audio/visual technologies. I sometimes despair of the irony of it all, but all we can do is to carry on providing what we can for free - and I can assure everyone here, that will always be the case here.

With kind regards,

Adrian.

[Tom]

It is true that some things should not be traded for money. I agree completely about things like reiki, attunements, and energy in general. How can we possibly say what energy is worth in terms of currency, gold, silver, diamonds, or any other material? It is not even the same from person to person in the effect it will have. It would be impossible to say that a meditation technique has a specific value in currency or in troy ounces of gold. A CD, however, is a material object with a certain amount of materials to produce and a certain cost to mail based on its weight. A CD can be said to have a specific value regardless of what data is burned into it. Even so, I feel better about charging for the data involved if it is a computer program for a game or spreadsheet program than for something to cause eventual spiritual gain. A computer game can be valued for its entertainment. A spreadsheet has a clearly defined value. A moment of spirituality cannot be defined as having a specific value. Spirituality is not something we do for other people. It is something we use by ourselves to transform ourselves. It is not intended for sale to others. The fact that other people will gain from our spirituality is unavoidable, if it is done right, and it is actually very rewarding. That reward is also difficult to measure in material value. It is not that I have anything against material values or materialism. I like getting paid when I go to work, and I enjoy spending money. It is nice to have food and clothes. What I am trying to say is that there is no way to put a value on spiritual things in terms of material things. The spiritual is not separate from the material, but it cannot be so easily defined or measured by materials.

[Tia]

Maybe I missed the point but, I raise energy for my physical wellbeing.  Completely aside from that, I irregularly attempt an OBE (purely out of curiosity), without much success.  And I'm not fussy which method I use because none of them are working too well at the moment.  If you're annoyed at the cost of the Gateway CD, well, everything costs money.  It could probably be got for free on shareware - oh but does the MP3 format chop out subliminal sounds?  

I think that spiritual growth comes as a result of experiences (most of them difficult ones) and no amount of studying books or expensive Cd's can get you there.  ie, there is no short cut in this.  

Astral projection is not necessary for spiritual growth, that's like saying everybody who cant do it is in a lower class spiritually.  It's just another aspect of living in the physical (and it doesn't half throw a spanner in the works anyway).

[Tom]

What sounds the MP3 format chops out are not merely subliminal. They are the frequencies which the average ear cannot perceive. No signal goes to the brain. The rest is compression. MP3 versions of hemispheric synchronization tools should work just as easily as zipped programs should still function when unzipped. The difference is that zipping does not reduce a file from 1411 kbits/second to 256 or 192 kbits/second. How fast, exactly, can the ear catch up?

It is true that in the end we are alone. Spiritually, we must all work only for ourselves. We are talking about Gateway program CDs, though. We are not talking about spiritual perfection. We are talking about people who think they can sell us our OBEs.

[Helmut]

Hi Adrian,
I honor your attitude in essence, but.... There NEVER!!!!! was a time before like this. You never ever got your spiritual growth for free!  Never!! Even the people who claim their teaching(dharma ) is free,  give you their inner taeching only if you devote your live (and hence all you possess) to their spiritual path. Up to now secret spiritual teachings have not been given to the public. All spiritual systems I know also imply a play of power and  hierarchy, thus they are also political systems with all the faults of such systems ( lies, intrigue, murder and even wars). Look at the Dalai Lamas for instance, most of there incarnations ended there lives in an unnatural way.
I  followed a buddhist path and it teached me this.
I think, politics should not be mixed with the spiritual path. You think money should not be mixed with the spiritual path. I rather like to give some money for spiritual teaching, than give my soul to a system I don`t yet fully understand. It gives me the freedom to learn and go my own way and decide then. But the people who provide the teaching in this way, have to make a living, especially if they do this job full time. So what about paying a fair price for a book (e-book)? Do e-books write themselves? So what if you pay a spiritual healer? His healing power may come from the heavens, but does this mean he has to give his ( life)-time for free to everyone and live in poverty? There is much hypocracy in the scene, where people say there healing/teaching is for free, but actually they expect you to give money and even more. There are many people on the other side who belive they deserve heaven if they donate a large sum. Teachers can get  greedy in this way.
If you think a fortune can be made by writing spiritual books,  you are wrong. I think  you will not even get an average wage for your work(time). Maybe some people can work for no money, if they have a fortune or do this as a hobby, but most people also have to make a living.
Don`t get me wrong. I support your efforts on this forum, for example to make CDs avaliable for those people, who can`t aford the high prices, but your statement
"Charging anything for Spiritually oriented books is to put money"
is very idealistic and far from the reality.
Maybe we are entering an age where this could come true, but easy copying doesn`t mean there is no work needed  to make a book.
Bye, Helmut

[Tom]

Helmut, it is good to see another Buddhist here. I agree with you completely. Have you read anything by Ayn Rand?

[Lysear]

I think what needs to be kept in perspective here is that the majority of people who post here live in a capitalist society!

the home you live in is paid for by the money that you/your family or whatever charge for their labour or services. The computer you are using is more than likely paid for by these means and the heating in your house, food on the table ... well you get the picture.

I believe it is hard for anyone to comment on the negative state of a society while using the products of that society it just smells a little bit hypocritical (yes I see the irony that I am also using the same products to point this out to you!!)

anyway thats just my twenty quids worth I'm sure there are plenty of people that disagree with me and I wish to hear your opinions too

[ralphm]

I think the main gripe about the monroe institude is not that they charge but that they charge too much and that they market hundreds of cd's at those inflated prices. Reading between the lines it looks like they are set up for the elite professionals-doctors, Phd's and therapists who can afford to pay and probably could write the expenses off there taxes(remember RM owned radio stations and theese were his friends). However what better way to reach out-you influence people who have influence in the greater society. Unfortunately that leaves most of us out, but THEY DO NOT HAVE a monopoly on conciouness! Thanks to RB and others this info is available and gets results.

[n/a]

Hello, OahnMacleod, I've just read all your posts in one go. Welcome aboard.

You ask  "But what is the focus or goal of the OOBE and Astral journey for all of you?" My goal is to find something useful to do but, as I've yet to have (or perhaps remember) an OBE, this may be some way off. My sentiment for some time to come will be the same as you would expect from a child asked what they are going to do with their first bicycle - "Learn not to fall off it, Mister".

Assuming I'm successful in this, and am not emotionally crushed by the reality differences I experience, I'll consult with my teacher - if I have one - to see if I can help him with his project. If no teacher turns up I'll invent my own. I'll probably start by trying some of the things we're not supposed to do, like trying to influence certain influential people for the better. But the thing that most interests me is the possibility of causing precipitation, as they call it, onto the physical plane. You ask "could this ability not be better used in areas like finding missing children". I couldn't agree more. The ability to locate, and put the s***s up, their abductors before they do them any harm would be an occupation worthy of the gift of the human mind. Also, if relevant parts of the Akashic Records could be imprinted onto video tape or CD,  many a brutal police interrogation could be brought to the light of day, and many a miscarriage of justice could be overturned.

If you ever get to my neck of the astral woods while I'm asleep, please, drag me out of my clog and slap me around a bit to wake me up. Perhaps we can cook up something that will be of use to humanity.

One question. When you were at the end of the universe ... ... , did you find the restaurant?

Regards,

sapien


ASK! If you do not ask, we cannot help: from Talking with Angels.

[Jacara]

Lots of great comments here.  This is something I've thought about as well...
I've pretty much disregarded the TMI approach because I can't afford it.  But also, what James said about how RB's approach of doing what he does for humanity's benefit make me appreciate anything he comes up with, regardless of which methods may be more "advanced".  Also, like Tia, I raise energy for all the other reasons as well (my own health, possibly healing others, and I'm sure there are more).
As for the money issue: I understand that everyone needs to make a living, and even writing an e-book costs money (time spent in writing it).  The issue to me is how much of a profit people are making and whether the money is their main motive.  And I don't know these answers, so I reserve judgement in this area.
Oh, one good thing that comes from charging for something:  Since everyone values money to some extent, and has a limited supply of it, it becomes a way to judge how important something is to someone.  So, for example:  Even though one can argue that Reiki attunements should be passed on for free (since they cost nothing to provide and they advance humanity), but then, if you make it free, everyone would want it, including people who have no intention of ever using it.  By tying money to it (just a little), you can make sure that only those seriously interested apply.

[Tom]

The argument about reiki attunements is common. The fact is that I am very willing to give reiki attunements for no charge of any sort. No money. It would be reasonable to expect lots of people to want the reiki attunements and even training in how to use them. Would you believe that people have told me that if I had anything to offer of value then I would not give it away?

[Jacara]

They're both sides of human nature with regards to money.  They assume you have the same values as them, and wouldn't give away anything of value. But what confuses me is, it's not like by "giving away" an attunement you actually lose anything, so their argument about it not having value doesn't make sense.
The only reason I wouldn't take you up on such an offer at this time is my lack of trust in outside energy sources.  I'd love to learn to heal, but only with my own energy (even at the expense of my own health).  Maybe somewhere down the road, when I have a better understanding of what reiki is, I would trust it, and then I'll certainly let you know. http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/images/icon_Smile.gif" border=0>

[James S]

When I first came to this forum I was looking for some direction in my newly reawakened spiritual journey. I received lots of help and good advice, and was well guided by the sage advice offered by the various documents written by Robert Bruce.

Robert's philosophy seems straightforward, practical and above all beneficial to all those who seek to expand their knowledge of the spiritual realm, or who simply seek to become better, more positive and more "enlightened" people. A large part of his offerings are free, and what material he does charge for is very well presented and brimming with all manner of useful information. It seems he genuinely wants to help people better themselves through spiritual learning and techniques in expanding consciousness. His methods of energy raising are not only useful for astral projection, but carry a wide range of highly beneficial  "side effects" that help promote good spiritual health and growth.

Now comes a new wave of easier and better methods of astral projection  courtesy of The Monroe Institute, all for the special price of $$$. But wait, that's not all! If you also spend $$$ they can give you The Next Step. With every purchase from TMI comes a multiple-lifetime membership to Club Astral, for all your astral awareness entertainment needs and pleasures. And guess what? It's so easy even I can do it!
No more spending large amounts of time raising energy, no more learning visualisation techniques. Just relax, close your eyes slip on some headphones and let our scientifically formulated soundwaves carry you off to new and exotic places.

A bit overboard you think? Well, maybe.
I'm not trying to play off two different sources of OBE techniques here. I'm just using them to make a point. R.B. seems to be more concerned with helping people grow spiritually. TMI seem to be more concerned with taking money from people to expand their research into consciousness. Lets face it, exactly what do they give away for the betterment of others?

What do you think is the main purpose in astral projection? Are we truly becoming better people if we are simply to learn a quicker way into the astral to use according to our desires? Or should we be seeking to better ourselves by taking the time involved in energy development and other more traditional projection techniques?

James.