Energy moving to project? what is this?

[Selea]

A) No, you didn't. I explained that very clearly.

The "fact" that you think you explained it clearly it doesn't mean that it happened. I told you that it is possible to do and I told you the way on how to begin doing it.

B) I did not ask you about a 'better" way. I asked if you if you had an "effective" method.

And I replied you that it's not a thing pertaining to only a *specific* method. You have to train different aspects.

Selea, I think you underestimate the knowledge and ability of many of the contributors here. When you say "The Middle Pillar is a method that treats chakras in a specific ways done appositedly for projection. When you will have mastered it you will be able to control at will the "light" formulated by using it" -- it sounds like you are caught in your own little world of SeleaThink and you can't get out long enough to simply grasp what others around you are really saying and asking.

I told you what happens if you want to try. You asked me how to do it and I replied, but now you don't care not to try nor to listen. What's this? Do you want all for nothing?

You can think it's garbage, fine. You can think it doesn't work, fine still. But if you ask me for a way to do it I tell you what you must do to begin learning doing it the way I know and I have done. But now you say that what I told you is not correct and it's garbage. It is you that asked me how to do a thing and now you pretend to be an expert that knows that I'm telling you an idiocy? If you were an expert already why did you ask me?

I asked you about your "method" of Middle Pillar because I am aware of about a half dozen significantly different variations on the central them which you lightly touched on.

The variations means nothing. The central structure is always the same, but, if you want a reference then the best way (being the full) to do it has been written by Regardie in "The Tree of Life".

I am trying to get very specific and you keep returning to generalities (which makes it look like you really don't know what you are talking about).

I'm speaking in generalities because how can I do elsewhere if I don't know what you have done in the past? Can I talk about chess specifically with someone that I know not if he either knows the rules on how to move?  What you say really makes no sense and if instead of wainting to act rude and try to prove I am just telling garbage (that in anyway you would not be able to discern neither if you wanted) you would have reflected a bit on the thing you would have known it already.

Begin doing what I said (if you are really interested, and I already did know you weren't, but still...), when you will have some experience on those things then you can return to me to ask about clarifications on how to go on from there. Every learning process is to be taken in steps, you pretend for me to give you detailed instructions from beginning, without either seeing how you behave on certain things, but this not how it works, no matter if you pretend it's so.

Naturally there are some things that are "easier" than others, and can either be resolved in a single "instruction". This is not one of them, if you think the contrary I suppose, again, that you already know better, so why ask me?

As I've said, if you really do have applied knowledge that arrives at a specific result, I am all ears.

Yes, I saw.

So... Raja yoga can require six months or a lifetime... or something inbetween, heh. Not real helpful. I know one school in India where they teach that if you follow their system of Yoga for Four Lifetimes the devotee will attain Liberation from the Wheel.
 

No thanks.

As you like.

Maybe if you did want to read instead of just replying something idiot you would have understood what I said. I said that if you just care for the result you want (in this case learning how to "exit" voluntarily) then it can take a certain amount of time, if you want to go on (as many does) then it requires a lifetime because you will live by it and the "results" will never end.

It was not difficult to understand if you really wanted to hear, but, no matter if you insist that's not so, you just don't care. You just asked me a way to do it at beginning because you wanted to demonstrate that I know nothing, isn't it? I did know it already but in any case I replied you seriously since I decided to reply to you at all.

So stop wasting my time now that you supposedly have "succeeded" in your mind, I'm not interested in your ego war. Think what you want.

[Selea]

Selea,

You have failed Rudolph too.

So you either think someone can fail someone other, good to know.

Your last post has just shown me that you are clearly not interested in having an intellectual debate, but rather, more focused on contradicting me at all costs. You need to realise that if you continue like that, people will lose interest in anything you have to say.

A) You are contradicting yourself from thougth to action, *all the time*, not me.
B) Yes, I'm not interested in an *intellectual* debate because that means nothing. I'm interested on practical applications.
C) I don't care, differently from you, about other people being interested or not in what I say. I just tell what I know, as little or as much as it can be, and people will then decide for themselves. I'm not interested in being popular or being liked.

By the way, go on Viewers and you will find two threads called "Where's Summerlander gone" and "I miss Summerlander", I have my sources and evidently there are people who think I was wronged...go there...check!

You are so interested in these petty things, I see. Do you care so much to let know to all others how good you are that you cannot avoid repeating these things over an over in any post?

The woman you use as reference can go to the same places as anyone can...as I said before...it also depends on where your mind is at.

If it was so simple... there's more than just "belief" as many researches on the argument (anthropological and practical) have demonstrated.

You pretend to have an intellectual debate but either your knowledge on these things, academically speaking, it is very low.

You have a thing for aliens then you are likely to see/visit alien worlds. You have a thing about deities then you are likely to experience this. If you have stray thoughts in the Phase, then you are likely to land in random places.

It's not so, but if you want to believe this then fine. I never asked you to believe what I said, I just asked you to not be so sure of everything and act as a master before either trying. You have not the slightest intention of doing it because you think you already know everything just because intellectually a thing make more sense than another to you (but you have neither so much academical knowledge as to really have a real intellectual choice therein). This approach will only limit you in the end and it will bring you to a world of self-delusion where you think you are the "king" while neither being able to do a joker's work.

When you learn an art, as music, and you want to learn it well you don't focus only on what it's intellectually near to you POW or do you think it's "right". You do everything in there until you are a master doing everything, both what you care and what you don't care, both what you think is necessary and what it isn't. In fact a good "master" is not one who teaches, because there's nothing to "teach", but it is one that gives you discipline and doesn't care about what you "want" or "like" but just on making you learn everything, especially things you don't like or care about.

You suppose here, in these things, the story it is different, but that's not so.

If you have focused intent, then you will get where you want to be (particularly when it comes to visits). It is all mind, selea. If the belief in energy systems that you believe in helps you, then by all means use it - perhaps that is what you got used to - but don't start saying to others that they are incapable of this and that if they don't do as you do because that is completely inaccurate.

Probably you don't really want to read what I write, because I expressedly defined the way control works and what it means. You can set an intent *before* with a sleep method so that it *can* (but, also here, it is not a certainity, so it's has little of "control") but when you are out you cannot. What you talk about can work only before, to set an intent, nothing more.

So no, you cannot do it.

As for "believing" or not believing you are missing the point again. If you did read a thing of what I wrote instead of wanting to feel good hearing your voice and pretending you are popular you would understand that I stressed that the only things that matters is what you can do, not what you believe or not believe.

You can think a shaman "undeducated" and believing garbage but the fact is that if he takes peyote, for example, he can use that experience in ways that "educated" people will never be able to. Yes, they think they know what's "right" or "wrong", yet this serves them nothing practically and all they have taking the drug is nonsense and silly things, of little value outside of "it was a blast!". So, who do you think it has the upper hand in the end? The "uneducated" shaman that can work practically or the "educated" man that can do nothing also if s/he thinks s/he knows how eveything works and it is so sure about what's "real" and what isn't?

Then I teach you a secret. Good shamans, as Matsùwa (Don José, the individual on whom Castaneda created his imaginary Don Juan) knows exactly what is what, they are not "uneducated" at all, it is just that they know how to use both things, instead of none of them just because they are more intersted in what "works" instead of what is "real".

You didn't get my sentence on the sun and Tatewarì, obviously, but that's what it meant.

Here's a few sayings, which funnily enough are found in the Big TOE, and may serve as a basis for deeper thought:

Totally... missing.... the point... at.

Oh well, whatever.

I usually am not interested on debating "intellectual" and wide range arguments because I prefer speaking about practical applications but since you insist with this fable of a thing being "truer" than another, I will let you consider this:

By doing certain practices until a certain point you will learn (practically, not intellectually) that EVERYTHING is an illusion. Speaking about phylosophy, then, Wittgenstein and Husserl have already demonstrated quite too well that our "certainity" on the things we see, hear, touch, etc. is just a conventionality given by the socialization and a certain univoque employ of the senses. In recent times Ouspensky and Csikszentmihalyi have espanded on the concept either more, demonstrating how a new born child learns to conform to a certain "structure" in what s/he perceives. Science, then with Quantum Physics has already began demonstrating the fallacy of the concept of space/time as defined by both our society and our senses, and the preconcepts on "solidity" we have therein, either on the physical body.

So, you see, all your wanting to debate on what is "true" and what is "false" in the end is just like debating who is more powerful of Superman and Spiderman and then starting behaving (deciding a course of action) on who you like more, pretending that your point of view is more "real" than another.

[Selea]

I believe that people can project at will, but this projecting at will thing requires a little effort (that's how I do it - I once projected in less than two minutes from employing my method and I don't call that "projecting at will").

You do like so much to fabricate things I never said and pretend that you are "confuting" them, isn't it?

Please tell me where I said that it doesn't take effort because I'm curious.

And then "effort" means nothing at all, as time. It is the structure of the method that counts.

Selea said he knows people that project while they are walking. I disagree with this. It may be possible in the distant future, but not yet, in my mind.

You have changed your tone, I see. First it was "impossible, they are lying", now it is "I disagree".

But anyway also intellectually what you say makes no much sense, really. All the resources you have are within you already, no need of "evolution". The matter is only if you care to understand how to use them or if you don't care because you just debate if they are "bogus" or not instead of acting a little more.

"All we are saaayiiing, please give 'bogus' a chanceeee!"

[Rudolph]

The "fact" that you think you explained it clearly it doesn't mean that it happened. I told you that it is possible to do and I told you the way on how to begin doing it.
And I replied you that it's not a thing pertaining to only a *specific* method. You have to train different aspects.

I told you what happens if you want to try. You asked me how to do it and I replied, but now you don't care not to try nor to listen. What's this? Do you want all for nothing?

You can think it's garbage, fine. You can think it doesn't work, fine still. But if you ask me for a way to do it I tell you what you must do to begin learning doing it the way I know and I have done. But now you say that what I told you is not correct and it's garbage. It is you that asked me how to do a thing and now you pretend to be an expert that knows that I'm telling you an idiocy? If you were an expert already why did you ask me?

I asked because you made a rather bold claim and if true I am sincerely interested in your method. But it is clear to me that this "superior" method of yours (Light Body, Middle Pillar, Raja Yoga, hand waving, smoke blowing...etc.) is just exaggeration.

You see, Selea, you came in here and talked down the Raduga obe4u method and made a claim to having a better method. Now, I personally am familiar with the Raduga method and I know by personal experience that it is excellent. For me, it worked as advertised. Now someone comes along and says they have something even better?! wow! I am definitely interested.

So... Regardie's Tree of Life. oh.... That. okay. Why it took so much to get that out of you is a mystery. Well, I read as much of that book as I could long ago and the archaic style is tedious at best. I really could not take it seriously after reading the "Banishing Ritual". I also consider it one of the worst resources out there for learning the Middle Pillar exercise. For those not familiar with it;
http://www.davedavies.com/splanet/magic3.htm
This is a rather involved exercise and takes quite a while to learn how to do it properly. This plus 2 to 4 hours a day Raja Yoga and then maybe, what?, 30 minutes to an hour  a day developing the "Body of Light"? ... hmmmm. Do this for a few years and the chela will 'soon' be Astral projecting "at will" ??
Sorry Charlie but that does not even begin to compare to the efficacy and results of the obe4u approach.

Now just to put this in perspective I had been doing the Robert Bruce MAP work for almost two years and had been getting OBE about once a month before I stumbled across the obe4u method. But when I tried it, it took my success rate to a whole new level in about a week. (And as I already said, I had been practicing a branch of Surat Shabd yoga for decades before the Baba Fakir Chand revelations and I became disillusioned with the entire Hindu yoga culture and methods).

So, your ambiguity and general hand waving and claims to needing to know more about the individual level of development is not holding water, Selea.

You made a bold claim but you have backed it up with basically nothing.

[Summerlander]

Xanth, I agree 100%.

Summerlander, fair enough, we probably had some misunderstings, that's all.  Oh, and Tom didn't make any claims, they are his theories, my bad; and I agree, we should analyze our own experiences ourselves, and reach our own conclusions pragmatically.  So no worries, it's all good.

I think it was a misunderstanding too. I meant to say that Campbell can probably project every time he tries it but if he was sitting at a table and eating a hot bowl of soup, then he wouldn't be able to do it.

No worries, it's all good. By the way, I think his theory is pretty good and that low entropy high entropy consciousness was experienced by me recently but not in the Phase. I was simply thinking about something and realised that the source of my low entropy thinking was rooted in high entropy. It's something I posted not too long ago. I think you'll be interested - I'll see if I can find it unless you've come across TRIKKA TRENDY...

@ Rudolph:

Don't stretch yourself. I think Selea only brought up the Body of Light to contradict me. I don't think he even knows what he is talking about there but, I'm not making any accusation, Selea...just thinking out loud.

It's not worth explaining anything Rudy, because Selea won't budge.

[Selea]

I asked because you made a rather bold claim and if true I am sincerely interested in your method. But it is clear to me that this "superior" method of yours (Light Body, Middle Pillar, Raja Yoga, hand waving, smoke blowing...etc.) is just exaggeration.

All methods that can make you "exit" voluntarily are "superior" than those who employ sleep on the things I've explained. Nothing is "superior" than "another" on a whole. Different things brings you different results, it's just this.

You see, Selea, you came in here and talked down the Raduga obe4u method and made a claim to having a better method.

It's not "my" method. I never claimed something is "mine", differently from Raduga, in fact.

Now, I personally am familiar with the Raduga method and I know by personal experience that it is excellent. For me, it worked as advertised. Now someone comes along and says they have something even better?! wow! I am definitely interested.

A) It's NOT Raduga method. Those things have been written in Shaman's texts from a lot of time, really a lot. He just took them and recycled with pseudo-scientific terms mixing them with some research of others (as LaBerge) pretending he invented something. If you did read a little more you would not not have needed to read Raduga and you will now be able to know that what he says is really nothing special (and not for what it is, but for the fact that's not HIS).
B) I never said it doesn't work. I just said that all methods that require sleep give you no control and they are tied to the physical body sleeping. They have naturally some positives too, one for example is that they are really easy to learn and adopt, and everybody can do them without previous training in nothing else.
C) It's "better" if you want to put the effort on learning it. If you just want results immediately and don't care about what type of "result" you get then not, it's not "better", at all. You will just waste time.

So... Regardie's Tree of Life. oh.... That. okay. Why it took so much to get that out of you is a mystery.

OMG. I told you immediately, it's you that started the diatribe in all "variations". If you did a bit of research instead of attacking me you would have come to the source of the technique, that's obviously the "better" in the sense that's not corrupted by every other person he thinks he knows better without neither understanding how things works, isn't it?

As for the LBPR, again, it is one of the most complete rituals. Archaic or not it doesn't matter. Believing on it or not it doesn't matter. What matters (for the now 100th time) it is that doing certain things certain things happens. And doing the LBPR *many* things of a various nature happens, no matter if you think it garbage or not. Just trying doing it for about six months, two times a day, with an open mind, not caring to "believe" or not "believe" or if it is "garbage" or not. Just do it, then probably your point of view on it will change dramatically, as it has changed for everyone that thought the same as you at beginning.

Things are never that simple as they look. You just watch name of angels, gestures and think: "this is pathetic", but there's much more to it that you cannot know because you just try to decide it intellectually.

Well, I read as much of that book as I could long ago and the archaic style is tedious at best. I really could not take it seriously after reading the "Banishing Ritual". I also consider it one of the worst resources out there for learning the Middle Pillar exercise. For those not familiar with it;

Again I see how do you really want to learn. You already know what's "garbage" and what's not. Good to know. Now, please can you just reply to someone else? I have no time to waste with your ego, I already told you.

You people are hilarious. You ask but then you don't want to either try what I told you to do. Again, why did you ask me if you already did know what was "wrong" or "right" therein and that had not intention of doing anything I said anyway?

You just wanted an intellectual discussion on what's "right" and what's "wrong"? If you care about these things I'm sure you will find a lot of people around really interested, as your friend. I'm not. You asked for directions, I gave you them. If you are not interested on acting but just debating then I'm not the person for you, I'm sorry.

This is a rather involved exercise and takes quite a while to learn how to do it properly.

It's obvious, or did you expect everything for nothing. Did you expected a course of 30 days in where you became a master? Good luck on your search.

This plus 2 to 4 hours a day Raja Yoga and then maybe, what?, 30 minutes to an hour  a day developing the "Body of Light"? ... hmmmm. Do this for a few years and the chela will 'soon' be Astral projecting "at will" ??

You have neither reasearched a bit on the things you are talking about and I've told you to do, this already shows everything about how much you really cared to begin with .

If you did at last try instead of growing up your ego on silly things you already would understand what Raja Yoga is and what it does. As for the Body of Light it's a method that does something specific, and, also there, you, as your friend, cannot and will never understand how it works because it's not a thing that you can understand just by "thinking" you know how it works.

Sorry Charlie but that does not even begin to compare to the efficacy and results of the obe4u approach.

If you say so...

A shame that the thingsI told you to do goes well beyond simply "exiting" the body.

Now just to put this in perspective I had been doing the Robert Bruce MAP work for almost two years and had been getting OBE about once a month before I stumbled across the obe4u method. But when I tried it, it took my success rate to a whole new level in about a week. (And as I already said, I had been practicing a branch of Surat Shabd yoga for decades before the Baba Fakir Chand revelations and I became disillusioned with the entire Hindu yoga culture and methods).

Your "success" rate means nothing. You were just intersted in "results" on the experience of an OBE and sleep methods give you that very fast. But you have no control when you are out and this doesn't interest you, good to know.

As for Surat Shabd, that has nothing to do with Raja Yoga, and, in fact, it is just sillines brought upon by yet another "guru" and it will never bring you to an OBE (if you cared about it) because, apart being really weak in itself, it's not either meant for it.

Then what's Hindu Yoga? You don't either know of what the hell you are talking about. Hindu Yoga has so many branches, everyone of them doing something specific and with a different results, converging only on the end of the path, but "sidestepping" all the others, depending on the method. Hatha Yoga, for example, will never bring you to "OBEs", nor it will Bhakti Yoga, etc. but they will bring you to Samadhi that's the end of the path for every type of yoga. After, when you have reached Samadhi you can do everything you want but you usually care no more since it suffices for itself.

As you see, your "knowledge" on the things being talked is really, really low. You didn't either know what you were doing and what to expect when you started doing it and now you blame the method instead of yourself. If you try to go to Rome via inland you cannot then blame the road for not letting you see the sea, blame yourself for not doing something that would bring you to that path and more than anything else blame yourself for caring about what you didn't "saw" instead on coming to Rome.

Raja Yoga is netiher "Yoga" (or, better, it is, in the meaning of the term, it isn't for what people consider "yoga" nowadays) it's just a term to indicate a series of practices that have the scope of giving you full concentration, ranging from the physical to the mental. Again, if you would have researched instead of figthing me, you would already know.

So, your ambiguity and general hand waving and claims to needing to know more a out the individual level of development is not holding water, Selea.

As you like.

Still it's not me that asked you something and then pretended I did know better. It's not me who pretends to discern what's "garbage" and what's not without clearly either knowing of what I'm talking about. As I said you, either if it was garbage, you would not have the knowledge nor the experience to understand it, so why pretend you do?

Make up your mind. If you really did do some yoga (garbage style or not) and your ego is still so strong I wonder what the hell you have really done...

You made a bold claim but you have backed it up with basically nothing.

And naturally you can judge this with your... knowledge? OMG.

[Selea]

@ Rudolph:

Don't stretch yourself. I think Selea only brought up the Body of Light to contradict me. I don't think he even knows what he is talking about there but, I'm not making any accusation, Selea...just thinking out loud.

Again a personal attack, I see. Still pretending to talk badly about a thing I already demonstrated you know nothing about, I see. But if you still pretend to know better I will be more than happy to oblige. Post a thread were you "analyze" that "method" and how it should supposedly works and I will let you see that what you think you "know" about it it's all completely and irremediably, WRONG, and that, in fact, all your "analysis" is just silly talk of an intellectual nature. Naturally this will make you do a really bad figure in the eyes of all others here and your supposed "popularity" will fall badly, and, since this thing it's very important for you, take it in mind.

You have not been able till now but to try to show your popularity, you have not been able to neither tie act and words, you have never been able to listen because you were more intent on just talking, you insiste on debating on things you did not know from personal experience and just pretending to be an expert upon,  and yet you think you can decide what's "right" or "wrong", you have neither been able to have a conversations without resorting to peronal insults and silly behaviour.

You see, OBEs means very little in the end. The things you are "doing" brings you nowhere, you are full of yourself and pathetically insecure as to always have to attack others personally, having confirmations from your "friends" or backing-up their statements, and to brag you successes around, and what's worse is that these are neither "yours", in the end.

So, all in all, everything you say about yourself and what you think you "know" it is contradicted by how you act and behave.

You know the saying: "by their fruits you shall know them"?

[Summerlander]

Ahh...I see. So that's your problem. My apparent popularity...

Selea, I think you should think before you post.

Another piece of advice...try not to say "shame on you" to others so much and quit pointing out their egos because you've one too.

You are right that it's not Raduga's method, sure...but he's highlighted the main areas and he's helped many. There is someone else who has many decades of experience and he undoubtedly understands the whole process better than I do. He also agrees with Raduga. If he saw the things you've been posting here - especially about the Body of Light method being superior, he would most probably urinate from his eyes. He's working on a film at the mo though...

[Selea]

Ahh...I see. So that's your problem. My apparent popularity...

Again missing the point, totally. Why don't you ever read instead of being so wrapped up in your words?

As for popularity in this forums, that's an easy thing to get. If I was interested (and I was, many years ago, being like you) I would act totally different.

Selea, I think you should think before you post.

If only for once you would follow your advices to others for yourself....

Another piece of advice...try not to say "shame on you" to others so much and quit pointing out their egos because you've one too.

The difference between my ego and yours is too much evident in the posts here. If you weren't not so full of yourself you would see the the difference in how I behave and how you do.

You are right that it's not Raduga's method, sure...but he's highlighted the main areas and he's helped many. There is someone else who has many decades of experience and he undoubtedly understands the whole process better than I do.

I would be curious to know this guy, but, just for your information, having years of experience doesn't really mean anything at all, on itself. If you have 20 years of experience in "chess" it means nothing. Another guy who has "experience" in it for 2 years it is has become a GM while your ECO has grow at most to 1500; there are a lot of these cases around on the net.

Do you know the difference? The method and what you do, experience without structure means nothing at all.

Reread my example on music, maybe you will get what I mean here.

He also agrees with Raduga. If he saw the things you've been posting here - especially about the Body of Light method being superior, he would most probably urinate from his eyes. He's working on a film at the mo though...

Let him come here and debate about the method. I hope he's better than you on seeing how it works because, elsewhere, he will just make a silly figure as you have done.

Urinating on things you know nothing about thinking you are so smart just wastes urine and make a fool of yourself.

[Summerlander]

Ok, Selea.

[Selea]

Ok, Selea.

Good debate and good points, as always.

P.S: If you want you can bring your friend and we can do a "race" on whom has the most years of experience. "I have 25", "I have 30", "No, but I have 31 considering that I was already doing it when I was a child", since these are the only things you care about. Surely this will make everybody see who is the "best" one.