Reincarnation ...I dont think so!

[Amber]

Gooood topic. Especially since there are so many valid arguments for both sides of this one.

When I first started studying religions, I decided that Reincarnation sounded like it was the most appealing theory out of the many I saw. The fact that life would move circularly makes a lot of sense, but it would also explain things like, why some people attract difficult life lessons or why some people are geniuses and such.

But then someone pointed out that the idea of Reincarnation was so popular because it is so convenient. You can screw up as much as you like in this life...you'll just get another chance. And then there is the point that mathematically, Reincarnation doesn't actually make any sense. There simply weren't enough people on this planet to support each person now having had hundred of lifetimes here. Unless some of those lives were lived in different dimensions or planets, then it could have some validity...


And yet, the idea is still appealing, that our soul is here to live out lessons and experience being human over and over until we have completed our term here.

So, I'm on the fence. I think that it is possible that humans are souls or spirits that have certainly lived elsewhere before this lifetime, but whether or not we get to 'graduate' to another experience after this...well, I am rather inclined to think that we do not. I think most of us fail here and do not move onto another stage of life, when we die...it's Game Over. I do think there are alternatives to this fate, but that they take a lifetime of work and dedication.

Amber

[Makaveli]

I hope there isn't reincarnation there is no way I'm coming back again as a different person.

[Nerezza]

It seems to be too convinient and very much like the Christian bad excuse that Jesus always forgives

This is the first time i've heard someone complain that the Christian belief is too lax[]. You can't just say, "Im sorry" and be done with it and very few denominations would say otherwise. As a Christian, I am fully aware that my actions will have repercutions in the afterlife, as I will be the one to answer for them and accept any punishment forthcoming. I do not expect to be forgiven, that in itself is a sin to me. However, I expect to be treated according to how I treat others(which isn't to well these days i'm afraid).

It's the same with Karma isn't it? We lead a bad life and karma acts to ensure we pay for it in the next(I can't really say though, I don't believe in it, at least not the current notion).

[James S]

I look at reincarnation, at it's most basic level, as being the conservation of energy, or recycling.

The idea of dying then going to heaven to spend eternity is a concept that makes no sense to me. A spirit is created, lives its life in a physical body, then goes on to a permanent storage area. To me this seems wasteful, and is inconsistent with most natural laws of energy, matter, etc, as the universe has a tendancy to recycle things.

I believe we have a choice, but I doubt very much that the considerations we have towards such a choice while we are here in the physical world will mean anything to us when we are in the spirit world. The perspective from the spirit world is entirely different.

James.

[naturechick89]

For as long as I can remember I have considered reincarnation as the only possible solution that could explain to me what happens when we die(physically) . It just makes sense to me, you are born, you live your life, you die, and you are born again. Then circle of life, it just is something that makes sense to me....but what one of the previous posters had mentioned gave me an idea....he said that the only logical way reincarnation could make sense were if some of the original souls came from different dimensions and such. What if, a person during one of there lifetime had a multiple personality disorder experience. there mind split up into many different personalities, would that mean that when they die there are now more then one different spirits. That could maybe explain some of the population increase.(plus other diseases) keep in mind its midnight so I'm not thinking too clearly and this could just be some excrement theory that really would never make sense...but hey it was worth a try.

[SilverSlider]

I am on the fence as well like Amber said. I have ideas for why reincarnation seems more plausible and the same for the Christian belief. In both belief systems there are repercussions for what is done in this life, whether there is another or not, and most people would probably want their next...experience as human on earth or a spirit in heaven or wherever, to be good. With this I don't think people (or at least I wouldn't, can't account for the rest of the population) would make bad decisions or do whatever just because they have another life ahead of them. This is basically what Nerezza was saying with the fact that Karma takes care of the bad decision making that people might do if they think they'll come back again

The idea that reincarnation doesn't make sense mathematically because there aren't enough people to come back and make the population the way it is today (since it's growing). Well, with the Christian belief, new spirits would come all the time (obviously) so why couldn't new spirits come with reincarnation? People need to end the reincarnation sometime so new spirits need to come into their place, so I would think that new spirits could just come into the world, somehow or for whatever reason, to make the population grow. Either way, new spirits are coming to the world.

I'm sorry but I have to disagree with Mustardseed with the idea that maybe only kids come back. To me that doesn't make too much sense because for one, where would the limit be? what constitutes as a kid, or one who would come back? I would think that either everyone does (besides the one's who are finished) or nobody does.

Hopefully all this makes sense because I wrote it fast, I'm tired, and I was talking to my brother meanwhile. Keep the topic going guys, it's very interesting.

Brad

[KP]

Have you ever seen anything die?  Leaves fall from trees, but they become the ground, then back in the trees/plants.  Oranges get eaten, they become part of us, then our excrement, sewage, water... air...
People die, but become the ground, insect food, trees, whatever.

When does life begin?  When you are born?  In the womb?  What about before that.  The sperm?  Where does the sperm come from?  And before that....?

It looks like there's just a constant change, a movement.  Not really death.  What do you think death is?  You have some idea of just emptiness?  What will that feel like?  Can that exist?  Even just a small glass when emptied isn't really empty.  It's still full of air.  Is air dead?

Questions!

[Mustardseed]

Well Frank that is actually an interesting point. I do project. All though I am a born again Christian I disbelieve many church doctrines and some New age stuf for want of a better word. Tell me this!! if there are so many people or souls in the higher and lower levels what are they doing there......? why are they not being reborn? Wether you or Monroe or any of your other teachers believe it to be true, it is intirely possible that this life is our only chance on earth in this dimension and anyone who claims to know better .....well as I said it is convinient isnt it. When I started to project I had to revise and update some beliefs in light of these experiences . I think many in this forum and all over have it too ...figured out!! Dont be afraid to challenge previous beliefs.
Regards Mustardseed

[bomohwkl]

Mustardseed,
If we don't know the the purpose of the existence of us in this universe, there is NO way we can get conclusive answer to the question of reincarnation.
What is the purpose of reincarnation? What happen if there is no reincarnation and does it agree with the purpose of our existence in the universe?
As a matter of fact, a lot of questions can be known if we have a glimpse of WHY we are here. Do you know what are the purposes of our existence in this universe? There is no dogma or belief in the universe, just our very own lack of understanding.

check out
www.thefreedomofchoice.com

[Gandalf]

the argument that says re-incarnation is impossible because the population is larger than before has always smacked of pure close mindedness to me. I often hear this argument from sceptics.
Unfortunatly, re-incarnation DOES appear to be a fact which you will encounter if you have a chat with anyone from the astral.
What people have to remember is that all 'humans' originated from outside of the Earth Life System, so in effect we are all from 'other dimensions'. New members join constantly along with those already here in the middle of the human 'learning process', and this is not even including all the animal life forms who progress to a level where they have a choice whether to become 'human'.


Nerezza,  I realise that you follow christian belief systems so you are used to the concept of divine punishment and reward, and are expecting this in the afterlife. You might want to watch this though as the reality is that in the afterlife, your only judge is yourself, no omnipotent white bearded god, sending out thunderous judgements upon people, this is a purely human (judeo-christian) concept.
The afterlife regions are full of people who have effectivly handicaped themselves by believing themselves 'damned' for one reason or another.

Regards,
Douglas

[Nerezza]

James,

To be put into permanent storage is more of an atheistic belief. Christians believe in spending an eternity with God in paradise, as a rewarded for leading spiritual, non material centered lives. We seek God, and we find him in the afterlife. It is not mundane, but beautiful and peaceful. Think of the perfect world, and you have heaven.

Perhaps we have the choice, I do not know, nor does anyone really. What I do know is that whatever awaits us will make today and this debate seem futile and unimportant, as with all debates really. But we have to do something in the meantime, right?

[Nerezza]

Nerezza, I realise that you follow christian belief systems so you are used to the concept of divine punishment and reward, and are expecting this in the afterlife. You might want to watch this though as the reality is that in the afterlife, your only judge is yourself, no omnipotent white bearded god, sending out thunderous judgements upon people, this is a purely human (judeo-christian) concept.
The afterlife regions are full of people who have effectivly handicaped themselves by believing themselves 'damned' for one reason or another.


I follow Christ, not any man made system. We essentially agree on the judgement part(with minor distinctions), and no white bearded god(used as abstraction for children). We even agree that if I am to be damned, I will damn myself(we are in control of our actions, we will be the ones to answer for them, if not before God, then to ourselves). It is interesting that my lack of belief in reincarnation did not come from the bible, but rather from random ponderings. There is only one real mention in the bible of one life(and several hints).

I do not try to be a good person due to fears of repercussions and expectations of great rewards, to do so is fake and anyone, God or man, can see through it. I try to be a good person because it is a reflection of the Holy Spirit within me(I do not expect you to believe, that is fair).

Of course there are days when I ridicule people and there are days when I will treat them as they deserve, any Christian claiming to be perfect, well, isn't.

Thanks for the warning, but if you're right and reincarnation exists, I will try better next time[].

no omnipotent white bearded god, sending out thunderous judgements upon people, this is a purely human (judeo-christian) concept.


I actually pictured Zeus, even Gandalf(maia are god's in a way, they're god's right?)[]

[Nick]

About 5 or so years ago a group of us went to hear a speaker in Los Angeles named Brian Weiss. He is a medical doctor and psychiatrist who also did not believe in reincarnation.

That all changed for him when, during the course of treatment, a patient began recalling past lives in vivid detail. This is all set forth in a great book entitled: Many Lives, Many Masters.

He has written several subsequent books, however I would invite all critical thinkers who think reincarnation does not exist, to give this first book a try. Here is a link to his website:

http://www.brianweiss.com/

Very best,

[Nerezza]

In the end, only experience can tell us what is real and what is not. Even then, authenticity can still be in question. Oh well, we'll all find out someday.

Also, shouldn't this be in the spirituality section. It's a good topic that would attract a different set of eyes(more accoustemed to thinking about such things).

[beavis]

If first-incarnation is true (and I'm sure it is), REincarnation would just be a repeat of what has already been done. It is not illogical. It is also consistent with what I was told while in astral.

If reincarnation exists or not, I'm not coming back to earth after death. There are too many opressors, too much work, and not enough fun. I prefer to move on to places farther from here than astral. Most people think they will be controlled, so they allow it. I will not.

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by Nerezza

James,

To be put into permanent storage is more of an atheistic belief. Christians believe in spending an eternity with God in paradise, as a rewarded for leading spiritual, non material centered lives. We seek God, and we find him in the afterlife. It is not mundane, but beautiful and peaceful. Think of the perfect world, and you have heaven.

Having been a christian for over 16 years I know well the descriptions of heaven, and it is certainly made very apealing. If however, being in heaven does not allow the ability to choose either move freely about the entire universe and spirit realms, or move on and have your spirit placed in another host body, then to me it effectively becomes just a glorified (no pun intended) storage area.

The other possibility that just came to mind is the concept of heaven could be a human way of describing the return to the oneness of the Source. This to me is a concept that has merit.

James.

[Gandalf]

I follow Christ, not any man made system
----------------------------------

Oh dear...

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that one. From both my experience of the astral *AND* my viewpoint as an Ancient Historian, the religion of christianity (in all its forms), like all other religions, is a purely human construct, but of course, followers of each do not see this and think of their own particular favourite in the same light as you see your yours, often leading to all kinds of problems!
From a historical point of view, you will find that early christianity is quite different from what people know today.

Much of what you would recognise as christianity is down to Emperor Constantine who held a conference of christian leaders in the 320's AD where various basic tenants of christian dogma were hammered out.
For example, did you know that it was at this conference that it was decided (by vote!) that Jesus was a god rather than just a prophet?, Before this time, no one had decided definitavly. Likewise, it was decided at this time that re-incarnation was incompatible with christian dogma. This is all 300 years after the events.

If you go back to the very early dead sea scrolls, you will find a jesus with some crazy extreme beliefs, characteristic of extreme jewish sects at this time, like oulawing fire and only eating uncooked vegetables. It is not suprising that some of Jesus' more extreme notions were 'watered down' as it became romanised, with christianity basically being usurped by the roman elite.

regards,
Douglas

[Augray]

I believe it is a personal choice.  I believe when we die we can move on, or we can come back again.  I don't think there is any way the brain-meat can comprehend death in it's true form. There is no possible way to prove either side wrong.  If we do have a choice, I think I could go for another round of humanity, I mean, there's no way to be sure if where we go next there will be high-school, women, fourth of July parties, and cigarettes!

[Nerezza]

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that one. From both my experience of the astral *AND* my viewpoint as an Ancient Historian, the religion of christianity (in all its forms), like all other religions, is a purely human construct

Of course all religion is of human construct, but it is divinely inspired, and that's the origin of Christianity, Jesus making Peter the leader of the Church and giving him authority to run it. All popes have this authority(there are non catholics who will disagree with me but the point is essentially, Christianity is based on Jesus giving the message, his apostles taking over when he left).

Much of what you would recognise as christianity is down to Emperor Constantine who held a conference of christian leaders in the 320's AD where various basic tenants of christian dogma were hammered out.
For example, did you know that it was at this conference that it was decided (by vote!) that Jesus was a god rather than just a prophet?, Before this time, no one had decided definitavly. Likewise, it was decided at this time that re-incarnation was incompatible with christian dogma. This is all 300 years after the events.


You mean the first council of Niceia(I think that's the spelling)? If so, yes, there was a vote to decide whether or not Jesus was less than God, or equal. It was because of one priest(Arius) about five years earlier who taught that Jesus was God because of grace, and not by nature. Of course, this was not what everyone else was teaching(nor was it ever taught by anyone before Arius, maybe origen though, I think Arius was one of his students), so Constantine wanted to hold the council in one city, but I think(can't remember, it's been awhile) there was a priest or bishop(or his own advisor) there that tried to prejudge the whole matter before the council, so he decided to hold it at Niceia instead. The whole council was started to prevent a theological war between the school in Alexandria and the other top school(can't remember the name).  

At Niceia(or however it's spelled), it was decided with only two(or five, different accounts give different numbers) votes going the other way, that Jesus was equal to God, for they were the same according to earlier teachings. It's here that we get the Nicine Creed(or the first version of it). The council(and creed) was needed to prevent something like the Arius controversy from happening again. Similar other councils were held for many years. It was not only a matter of stamping out heretics, but defining the faith.

And reincarnation? The council of Niceia was two hundred years too early.

Any 'wiping' of reincarnation from church dogma came at the council of contstantinople(once again, spelling) in approx 550. It was there that origenism was condemned because it was incompitable with christian dogma. It did NOT however teach reincarnation as so many wrongly attribute. Origen taught the notion of pre-existance of souls, not reincarnation(as Shirley McClaine would have people believe). Origen did speak on reincarnation, and he was against it(but reincarnation had nothing to do with him anyway so....) Origen was one of the most original(no pun) thinkers of early christianity, but he was not in favor of a reincarnation doctrine. The end.

If you go back to the very early dead sea scrolls, you will find a jesus with some crazy extreme beliefs, characteristic of extreme jewish sects at this time, like oulawing fire and only eating uncooked vegetables. It is not suprising that some of Jesus' more extreme notions were 'watered down' as it became romanised, with christianity basically being usurped by the roman elite

The dead sea scrolls are interesting, but no where will you find the name Jesus(or translations), but yes, it does allude to a great teacher who will be persecuted and what not. I always thought that they were are nice prophecy of what was going to happen approx 100 years after they were written(and yes, there is controversy going on today about it all). I really need to study them more, but im more interested in the early church fathers(I blame a professor for this). But really, in the end I havn't studied them enough.

What I meant by the sentence, "I follow Christ, not any man made system", is this: I've had minor miracles involving Jesus in the past. I do not expect anyone to believe me so I will not talk about them here(it's between me and Christ anyway). Words fail me on this subject, so moving on...

If I was not a Christian, reincarnation would still be unlikely to me, as I've already mentioned, so any attack on early Christianity will only urge the side of me that enjoy's reading about early/medieval Roman Catholicism, not my spiritual side. However, I have no urge to debate the validity of Christianity as a belief any longer, I've already spent years debating the subject, it's gotten very old, very quick, now it's time for something different. Im not interested in condemning anyone else to Christianity's version of hell, nor do I expect the new age version to be cursed(for lack of a better word) upon me.

James,

Having been a christian for over 16 years I know well the descriptions of heaven, and it is certainly made very apealing. If however, being in heaven does not allow the ability to choose either move freely about the entire universe and spirit realms, or move on and have your spirit placed in another host body, then to me it effectively becomes just a glorified (no pun intended) storage area.

This is where we have different loves. I want to join God, but you want to return to the world. I see the body as a form of temporary storage, with the soul being freed, thankfully and finally, at death.  

[Mustardseed]

Well spoken I would say. You sure know your stuf!! I guess for me it is not really a matter of church counsels and I am sure lots of people can qoute lots of stuf that happened many years ago and postulate that this is not real and that is a fake and so on . I am not particularily full of faith in history. As such I have chosen to believe through FAITH and faith is the substance of things not seen , as we say as Christians "its all by faith" I am a bit doubtful about peoples motives who in order to argue for their point have to attack others. In other words I would feel it wise to refrain from bashing Christians or Jesus because he7they was supposed to be the one to say "it is appointed for man to die and after this the Judgement"I assume that is the one scripture you talked about. I am aware that this makes a lot of people very angry but so what. I believe it together with millions of others right!!. I could easily concieve of Life on earth being the "womb" so to speak and as a metafor we are not going there again. There is nothing to contradict a progression through various levels of the Astral or spirit world that might be like a rebirth. All in all I feel that some are too docmatic in this beliefsystem and I for one will feel free to explore and challenge it as to me it seems too much like a "cop out" and convinient excuse to be too laid back about life and the choises we make.
Kindly
David

[Gandalf]

The dead sea scrolls are interesting, but no where will you find the name Jesus(or translations)
---------------------------------------

well, this is simply untrue.
If you keep up to date with translations, new ones are released periodically, Jesus is indeed mentioned as part of the extreme essene jewish sect.

The point I'm really trying to make here is that these texts are essentially all out of date, mistranslated, edited, omitted, etc etc and the way that hard core christians, esp the bible belt in America seem to assume that every word is carved in stone, straight from god himself, never fails to amaze me.
Some of these mistranslations have huge implications. For example, in the King James version, it says that 'sinners' go to hell for 'eternity'. However, in the older Greek versions, the word used is 'aeon'. Now the length of time for an aeon varied depending on when it was used, usually it refered to 1000 years, but it was certainly a finite amount of time.
However, in the later version the translator has displced 'aeon' with 'eternity'. While this may be a mistake, the translater has used the word 'aeon' with little difficulty in other contexts, so the replacing of terms is purposeful.

At the end of the day, things have moved on with better information now available. Its like an engineer desperete to hold on to his outdated biplane manual when there are jetplanes flying above him. In the past, the trend was for spiritual wisdom to be taught to those on earth but this has been largely a failure with the many mistranslations, garbling and agenda setting as described above. Now the trend is for us to go *there* hence the increased interest in the astral, obe, such as this forum.

In the end, It doesnt really matter, your beliefs are catered for in the astral, along with everyone elses, but I do encourage you to actively explore the astral regions as you will find them extremely enlightning, especially with regards to the nature of human belief systems, including mainstream religions and science.

Douglas

[Nerezza]

well, this is simply untrue.
If you keep up to date with translations, new ones are released periodically, Jesus is indeed mentioned as part of the extreme essene jewish sect.

Once again, I know very little about the scrolls. But I will trust you on it.

The point I'm really trying to make here is that these texts are essentially all out of date, mistranslated, edited, omitted, etc etc and the way that hard core christians, esp the bible belt in America seem to assume that every word is carved in stone, straight from god himself, never fails to amaze me.
Some of these mistranslations have huge implications. For example, in the King James version, it says that 'sinners' go to hell for 'eternity'. However, in the older Greek versions, the word used is 'aeon'. Now the length of time for an aeon varied depending on when it was used, usually it refered to 1000 years, but it was certainly a finite amount of time.


Fair enough, I don't use the KJV version for similar reasons. I do agree that there are alot of words change/lost in translations and it has caused alot of pain and persecution.

In the end, It doesnt really matter, your beliefs are catered for in the astral, along with everyone elses, but I do encourage you to actively explore the astral regions as you will find them extremely enlightning, especially with regards to the nature of human belief systems, including mainstream religions and science.

Im actually in the process over doing so, albeit very slowly(lack of time). I've had one OBE, trying for another. Im sure that my views will change/modify, and i'll be thankful for it. I do not believe the bible contains the full reality of existance(it is foolish to think so).

[James S]

quote:Originally posted by Nerezza

This is where we have different loves. I want to join God, but you want to return to the world. I see the body as a form of temporary storage, with the soul being freed, thankfully and finally, at death.  

Nerezza,

This idea I think is in line with my last comment "The other possibility that just came to mind is the concept of heaven could be a human way of describing the return to the oneness of the Source. This to me is a concept that has merit."

As an analology I see to this, for anyone who'se watched Star Trek DS9, it would be like Odo or another changeling going back to be a part of the Great Link.

This to me seems more sensible than the idea of sitting around in some celestial mansion for all eternity completely blissed out watching the clouds go by. Unfortunately it seems the concept of returning in spirit to rejoin with the Source (or God) might be beyond a few people's ability to comprehend. It wouldn't surprise me if the concept of heaven has been "dumbed down" and probably badly misinterpreted over the years.

No, I suppose I don't really wish this for myself, at least not from my current point of view. When I'm free of this body, I'd like to go out and explore a bit. I've always been fascinated by astronomy. There's so much I'd love to see. Mind you, eternity gives me a fair bit of time to work with. After I've seen everything, maybe twice for the good bits, then what'll I do???

Truth be told, I don't really know what I will do in spirit form once I leave this earth. I don't know what changes might occur in my thought processes at the time. I'm curious to know, but I'm not planning on rushing to find out. []

James.

[BillionNamesofGod]

quote:I have been thinking a lot about it, and I believe I am making up my mind that Re incarnation is a false. !!

This is quite odd.  It's my first post here, and I can't
believe how absurd the above statement is.
It's clearly so hinged in belief systems, it's like saying I don't believe in god, a pretty pointless exercise.
You either have a belief system that believes it or you don't, it really is as simple as that.  
Why the hell should anything make any sense anyway?
Personally, Reincarnation, makes complete sense to me and stories I've read of Indian cases were enough to convince me.
It's a shame that there are too many skeptics about, to handle this type of thing effectively, people just argue if they believe it or not, and that's about as deep as it gets.
I mean, being sent back to earth again and again, until you learn the real truth makes so much sense to me!
I mean can anyone out there believe that being given 70 years on this planet is enough - it's all too short for me!
What's more shocking is that, I really surprised to see people
in this kind of forum that don't believe in it - now that's opened my eyes, people out there believe in Astral Projection, the afterlife, but no re-incarnation?  Amazing!

[Mustardseed]

Well I guess you met one such fool now then. However I would challenge you to consider the point I and others have brought up. If you just hang on to your belief and sit and wonder how people could be so "silly" you seem similar to people I have met in Churches who say the same about those who believe in ReIncarnation. For once try not to be so set in your ways my friend. In order to reach a desision between two opinions they should both be equally considered with a mind to look if it could be so. If you doggedly hang on to one and refuse to even consider the other I would say you are ....dogmatic.  It is intirely unproductive to use words that make people feel hesitant to bring up questions that challenge accepted beliefs. You also seem to contradict yourself first asking " does it have to make sense ....and then "it makes sense to me" So explain me what you mean without emotionally loaded words pride and polishing your own superior knowledge and insight, with respect for one who does not believe as you do but is willing to consider your point of view. That is love. Do unto others what you would have them do unto you.