so first rule of AP. you dont talk about ap hahah

[Rudolph]

What do you think the benefits of the Phase (OOBEs/Astral Projection/Lucid Dreams) are? Let's gather a list of reasons why everyone should do it.

Other than allowing people to see their Silver Cord and their Chakras and stuff it could help in finding God. Right now I am trying to see if it improves my Tarot card reading skill... and picking lottery numbers (duh! ).

Like Traveler I am not so sure this is for everyone. Paranoid Schizophrenics might not deal with it well. Those who go straight to hell during OBEs and NDEs might not want to do it either.

[personalreality]

there is an important aspect of traveling to the otherworlds that modern OBE techniques tend to neglect.

traditionally, the apprentice, the new walker, had to undergo personal cleansing and stabilizing before they were able to go to the other worlds for that very reason.  they would get thrown into "hell-like" realms that were manifestations of their own inner turmoil that hadn't been dealt with.  That was all part of the process of becoming a walker.  Nowadays, such preparation is neglected in favor of the short cut, modern OBE techniques.  In occult traditions you wouldn't even been eligible to learn the techniques of projection until you had evolved personally and spiritually to a degree that was determined by your master.

[Rudolph]

  In occult traditions you wouldn't even been eligible to learn the techniques of projection until you had evolved personally and spiritually to a degree that was determined by your master.

I came late to the Rosicrucian/GD/Thelema Schools -- long after I had been meditating and experiencing spontaneous OBEs. I met a lot of egotistical and ignorant members who lorded their initiation status over the lower ranks. I met only one who I thought might be tolerable as a 'master'.

And yes, it was clear that AP attempts would not be on the menu for at least a couple years.

I didn't join.

[personalreality]

I agree, which is why i am not in an occult order either.  I still believe that the concern is valid, but I don't feel that anyone but me can really know when I'm ready to take the next step.  I couldn't handle having a "master".  I'm too much of a solitary kind of practitioner. 

[blis]

I've made the mistake of getting drawn into conversations about the afterlife.  Everthings goes great until they suddenly ask where you're getting all these ideas from.

If there's someone I'd like to talk to about AP I find it safest to start with lucid dreaming first. If they're not very enthusiastic you know to give it a miss and you havent made yourself look mental.

I might bring up chakra's aswell. The subject's just about common enough for you only to be considered a bit strange instead of crazy.

If they still seem interested after LDing and chakra's it's a pretty safe bet they wont run when you bring up AP.

If you want to bring it up straight away you can always talk about someone you know who's into it. I know this native american medicine man and I'll bring him up in conversations sometimes and the metaphysical practices he's into. You can tell pretty quickly whether it would be safe to tell them you're into the same sort of stuff.

[the8reader]

Cuppa tea, anyone? I can make the best cuppa tea in the world. And then we can discuss some more AP.

just as long as you keep the mace and the bible out of it.. you can count me in hahaha

[Summerlander]

LOL! ^^

I'll add my input. I thing the Phase (OOBEs/AP/LDs) can help us in so many ways. It can improve our confidence, we can strengthen our weaknesses, we can get ideas there very easily (already manifest), memory retrieval, telepathy (my experiences suport this), precognition (my experiences support this), contact with the dead (my experience supports this with validations!), indulging in fantasies, etc etc.

Paranoid Schizophrenics might not deal with it well.

Hi, Rudolph! Great to see you here! About paranoid schizos...on their own it is probably not a good idea but...if they have support from someone who is more experienced, it might even help them to get to the root of their problem as it deals with the unconscious mind while the haloperidol they take helps to sort out their dopamine levels...you know, sharpen the cerebral tool for motivation and more efficient cognition and behaviour.

Thus they would tackle the root of the problem directly (using this newly-found metaphysical therapy) while the drugs help with dopaminergic transmission in the meantime which will put them in the right mood during waking states.

What do you think?

[personalreality]

in regard to schizophrenics, they are already there.

they see the otherworlds overlaid on our common physical reality.

but they don't know how to control it, it just comes through as sensory overload which makes it nearly impossible to function.

if they could be trained, they could be the seers of our time.  it's the treatment they are given by western medicine that makes it worse, exacerbates the issue.

one might even say that in native traditions, such a person would be sought out to become a shaman's apprentice.  the shaman knows when the child is born that they possess the gift.  i think it's the same gift, but the way schizophrenics are treated in the west just shuts them down, it's too much to handle, it's scary and not at all nurturing.

[Summerlander]

This is a simulation of what it's like in the mind of a schizophrenic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s33Y5nI5Wbc

[blis]

This is a simulation of what it's like in the mind of a schizophrenic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s33Y5nI5Wbc

That scared me a bit. It was like a bad trip.

[Stillwater]

This is a simulation of what it's like in the mind of a schizophrenic:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s33Y5nI5Wbc

You're dead.

This seems pretty accurate for a paranoid schizophrenic. The severity and frequency of the hallucinations varies with the individual, and some may not have auditory experiences, but only visual ones. It really is very debilititating though, especially when a person is driven to question they're very reality.

You're dead.

I could see devices like that being useful in situations such as helping to train jury members for trials involving specific kinds of insanity defenses; juries today are quite reluctant to accept insanity, and we have prisons full of schizophrenics on one side of the institutional bars, and thousands and thousands on the streets now too, thanks to Reagan's cuts to mental health programs.

You're dead.

[the8reader]

i Have a Question??? so if skitzos can see and hear the other side, wich is a great gift they cant control. have they done research into this or just call them crazzy pump them full of drugs and let them walk around like zombies... has anyone tried to train one to control it and how hard would it be too control it. I bet you would have to start at a very young age huh?

[Stillwater]

Well, the almost insurmountable obstacle you would face trying that is the prevailing scientific paradigm. The scientific community today believes almost unanomously in materialism (all of reality is explained by physical matter), and materialism does not leave any room at all for considering that everything out of the ordinary a schizophrenic experiences is not a hallucination- it is pretty much assumed at the outset. So you will never get funding for such an endeavor, since the bodies who could support such research would view it as exploitation of the mentally ill to further half-baked new age mumbo-jumbo that has no basis in reality. Getting a university to pay for research like that is like trying to convince a Southern Baptist that maybe he should donate some of his salary toward promoting Hinduism; there is just too much ideological friction for it to work.

[Summerlander]

Perhaps a DMT treatment coupled with AP/LD therapy would be ideal for them.

[personalreality]

Well, the almost insurmountable obstacle you would face trying that is the prevailing scientific paradigm. The scientific community today believes almost unanomously in materialism (all of reality is explained by physical matter), and materialism does not leave any room at all for considering that everything out of the ordinary a schizophrenic experiences is not a hallucination- it is pretty much assumed at the outset. So you will never get funding for such an endeavor, since the bodies who could support such research would view it as exploitation of the mentally ill to further half-baked new age mumbo-jumbo that has no basis in reality. Getting a university to pay for research like that is like trying to convince a Southern Baptist that maybe he should donate some of his salary toward promoting Hinduism; there is just too much ideological friction for it to work.

!!!!

[Rudolph]

Modern scientific method in the medical field requires statistical significance and reliable repeatability.

There is nothing to stop anyone from starting The New Age Mumbo-Jumbo Clinic for Personality Disorder Research. And there are drugless mental training therapies in development and even in practice for milder cases. Just offhand I do not see how AP could help at all in such a case. Part of Conscious AP is consciously and knowingly and willingly exploring altered states while these poor souls are seriously lacking in those necessary attributes.

Reagan?! How is a guy who hasn't been president for over 20 years somehow relevant to a discussion about contemporary treatment options? What did Clinton do to rectify the action? Nothing. And it isn't even a back burner issue for the present president. Why not complain about them? Besides, when you get right down to it, what does the FEDERAL govt have to do with Mental Health? Nothing, that's what. The State Mental Hospital is a better target for your complaints. I suggest you take the matter up with them. But then that would require personal effort and is much more demanding then tossing out complaints about dead presidents.

[personalreality]

Modern scientific method in the medical field requires statistical significance and reliable repeatability.

There is nothing to stop anyone from starting The New Age Mumbo-Jumbo Clinic for Personality Disorder Research. And there are drugless mental training therapies in development and even in practice for milder cases. Just offhand I do not see how AP could help at all in such a case. Part of Conscious AP is consciously and knowingly and willingly exploring altered states while these poor souls are seriously lacking in those necessary attributes.

Reagan?! How is a guy who hasn't been president for over 20 years somehow relevant to a discussion about contemporary treatment options? What did Clinton do to rectify the action? Nothing. And it isn't even a back burner issue for the present president. Why not complain about them? Besides, when you get right down to it, what does the FEDERAL govt have to do with Mental Health? Nothing, that's what. The State Mental Hospital is a better target for your complaints. I suggest you take the matter up with them. But then that would require personal effort and is much more demanding then tossing out complaints about dead presidents.

man...

i want to like you so bad, i really do.  you're obviously intelligent and i appreciate that.

i have my bachelors (in the mail as we speak) in psychology and i can tell you from first hand experience (both as a patient in drug rehab for two years and as a counselor and intern at medical facilities for the past 4 years) that you are really missing the big picture.  yes, scientific studies require statistical significance, this is true.  the science isn't bad, the scope of vision as to what gets researched is bad.  beyond that, there is the proverbial black list effect.  if your research isn't seen as "socially acceptable" or capable of providing more money to the right people, then your research doesn't get published.  peer-review my butt, the editor of medical journals decides who gets published and who doesn't, and if they don't like your research, they tell all of their contacts at every other journal not to publish you and you get black listed.  you can't do research unless you get funding and you only get funding if you research is within orthodox parameters.  bottom line.

beyond that, in practice, the only mental health treatments that get supported are the ones that make money.  do you really think that the reason psychology and psychiatry prescribe more medications than ever before is because the meds really work!?  bullcrap.  it''s like that because that's where the money is.  and the government has EVERYTHING to do with mental health.  Who do you think approves the medications that are being shoved down people's throats with little to no concern for the side effects?  the FDA, ie, the government.  who control public mental health facilities?  the government.  even the private facilities abide by government sanctions and laws.  there is NOTHING in the USA that the government doesn't have their hands in. 

[Stillwater]

There is nothing to stop anyone from starting The New Age Mumbo-Jumbo Clinic for Personality Disorder Research.

Mainly funding. Those who gather enough personal capitol to do the research themselves, like Monroe and Charles Tart struggle and struggle with keeping their enterprise afloat, and even when they produce seemingly repeatable results, it is still difficult to get legitimate attention, since what they are suggesting is occurring is so far off of what the community as a whole is willing to accept. Case in point- project PEAR at Princeton was apparently producing very rigorous statistics over literally millions of trials that seemed to imply that human conscious choice could remotely affect random events in the physical world to a very slight but statisticly significant and consistent degree. Now if this is true, there should have been a dozen follow-up studies in parallel at other universities and labs, but there were none- only attempts to write off the findings. There is a very real barrier that keeps alternative views from being entertained if they are far enough outside of the accepted pail.

Reagan?! How is a guy who hasn't been president for over 20 years somehow relevant to a discussion about contemporary treatment options? What did Clinton do to rectify the action? Nothing. And it isn't even a back burner issue for the present president. Why not complain about them?

Oh yes, every president since is just as guilty for not reversing the budget cuts. I merely mention Reagan since it happened under his watch and guidance, and that changes that occur under one president are rarely changed immediately, since it takes so much effort to get Congress to change their position again. None of the Democrats really liked the concept of Homeland Security, yet with Obama now in office, there is very little talk of repealling it; political changes are long and laborious, unfortunately.

beyond that, in practice, the only mental health treatments that get supported are the ones that make money.  do you really think that the reason psychology and psychiatry prescribe more medications than ever before is because the meds really work!?  bullcrap.  it''s like that because that's where the money is.

Yes, I am going to have to go with Personal reality again. The pharmaceutical turst is a powerful lobbying gorup, and has made a billion-dollar industry out of railroading drugs through a now-toothless FDA. Cognitve approaches may be just as effective or even significantly more effective, but you can't prudce good cognitiveists in a factory like you can the doctor in a bottle.

[Rudolph]

man...

i want to like you so bad, i really do.  you're obviously intelligent and i appreciate that.

i have my bachelors (in the mail as we speak) in psychology and i can tell you from first hand experience (both as a patient in drug rehab for two years and as a counselor and intern at medical facilities for the past 4 years) that you are really missing the big picture.  yes, scientific studies require statistical significance, this is true.  the science isn't bad, the scope of vision as to what gets researched is bad.  beyond that, there is the proverbial black list effect.  if your research isn't seen as "socially acceptable" or capable of providing more money to the right people, then your research doesn't get published.  peer-review my butt, the editor of medical journals decides who gets published and who doesn't, and if they don't like your research, they tell all of their contacts at every other journal not to publish you and you get black listed.  you can't do research unless you get funding and you only get funding if you research is within orthodox parameters.  bottom line.

beyond that, in practice, the only mental health treatments that get supported are the ones that make money.  do you really think that the reason psychology and psychiatry prescribe more medications than ever before is because the meds really work!?  bullcrap.  it''s like that because that's where the money is.  and the government has EVERYTHING to do with mental health.  Who do you think approves the medications that are being shoved down people's throats with little to no concern for the side effects?  the FDA, ie, the government.  who control public mental health facilities?  the government.  even the private facilities abide by government sanctions and laws.  there is NOTHING in the USA that the government doesn't have their hands in. 

The Federal Government is NOT the only source of funding. Folks getting stuck in that mindset is a big part of the problem. That is why I suggested starting your own operation if you are serious. Look at L Ron Hubbard. 

And once again, why did you say, " and the government has EVERYTHING to do with mental health."? oh...
I guess I phrased that badly. I did NOT mean to say the government had nothing to do with it in actual practice. My point is that mental health is not the Federal govt's job.
That doesn't mean the Feds aren't doing all sorts of things wayyy outside their job description. Personally I think the FDA needs to be shut down and the job can be turned over to some sort of Underwriter's Laboratory type outfit. Get twice the performance for half the price.

[personalreality]

Look at L Ron Hubbard. 

low blow, lol. 

And once again, why did you say, " and the government has EVERYTHING to do with mental health."? oh...
I guess I phrased that badly. I did NOT mean to say the government had nothing to do with it in actual practice. My point is that mental health is not the Federal govt's job.

my mistake

That doesn't mean the Feds aren't doing all sorts of things wayyy outside their job description. Personally I think the FDA needs to be shut down and the job can be turned over to some sort of Underwriter's Laboratory type outfit. Get twice the performance for half the price.

I agree that they need to be shut down.  I also believe that the FDA is a part of the "thinning of the herds" and intentional weakening of the species so that when our alien overlords arrive we will be ripe for the picking.

i'm completely serious right now.

[Rudolph]

None of the Democrats really liked the concept of Homeland Security, yet with Obama now in office, there is very little talk of repealling it; political changes are long and laborious, unfortunately.

That's because the fact is that the Dems created it. They only acted like they hated it when it looked like it would hurt Bush. They are experts at manipulating the press and the beliefs of the gullible masses.

The Patriot act was just a minor edit (to modernize to account for computer and internet and cell phone technology shifts) of the Clinton Anti-Terrorism act passed during the 5th year of his presidency, I think. Also the Partriot Act was a COMPLETELY Bipartisan effort in the House that was nearly complete before Bush was even sworn in. 9/11 merely fast tracked the debate and vote.

[Stillwater]

That doesn't mean the Feds aren't doing all sorts of things wayyy outside their job description. Personally I think the FDA needs to be shut down and the job can be turned over to some sort of Underwriter's Laboratory type outfit. Get twice the performance for half the price.

This sounds like a plan. Anything would be better than the FDA we have now; their idea of testing is giving the drugs to a goldfish, and approving anything that does not kill it in 20 seconds or less. As long as there is a way of monitoring the quality control federally, without relying on federal beuracracy to actually do the job itself, I would be all for that.

[Rudolph]

As long as there is a way of monitoring the quality control federally, without relying on federal beuracracy to actually do the job itself, I would be all for that.

This sort of thing needs to be done basically across the board with the entire Federal bureaucracy. Look at those incompetent goofs in the SEC! They Audited the Bernie Maddof Hedge Fund. They sent in a TEAM of accountants and they stayed resident for about a week going over the books. They were right there on the premises!! A week later they walk out handing Bernie a clean bill of health and their Seal of Approval. About six months later the whole sheebang goes belly up. What a bunch of incompetent buffoons.

And the tyrannical Dems think the solution is to INCREASE Federal Oversight! What a joke. It makes no sense at all.

When real work needs to be done they need to sub-contract it out to private firms. Moodys or one of the other rating services could have smelled a rat in a few hours of looking over the books and double checking actual holdings.

[Summerlander]

So you guys reckon if a form of therapy involving AP was developed, schizophrenics wouldn't benefit from it? Despite the materialistic view, science acknowledges OOBEs/AP to be a real phenomenon, albeit misunderstood. So my question is: why not test this thing that is so misunderstood in order to see if it works as therapy on the mentally ill?

Regardless of the New Age mumbo jumbo, of course. Beliefs on its nature here are not concerned, just whether it can function as a 'remedy' or not.

Or perhaps people are reluctant to do this altogether because they fear ridicule. For some, talking about this is academic suicide. What do you guys think?

[Bedeekin]

does cocaine make your eyeballs numb?

Yes... very!!