What is the difference between a lucid dream and visiting somewhere in Focus 3?

[orian]

What is the difference between a lucid dream and visiting somewhere in Focus 3?

My understanding is that Focus 3 comprises of various "places, levels, planes" that we can change the look of by thought, or create objects in them by thought. I might be wrong, but that is the impression I get from reading some stuff Frank Kepple wrote.

Given this, if correct, how does a person who is experiencing a place in Focus 2, know that they are not just having a lucid dream - or indeed visa versa: how does a person having a lucid dream know they are not just experiencing a place in Focus 2?

[Xanth]

This is where Frank and I go our separate ways.  I don't view consciousness as being so neatly divided between a personal area of consciousness and collective area of consciousness.

Consciousness is a whole, you perceive what you experience and that's it.

The question I feel you're really asking is what is the difference between a lucid dream and an astral projection.

To that I answer the difference is only the level of awareness you have during the experience. The closer you can get to having the same kind of awarness you have now (I call it a waking awareness), the closer to a full projection you are.

[Szaxx]

Generally from what I've read many moons ago Frank labelled level 3 consciousness as an experience totally unlike the typical experiences we expect eg lucid dreaming. The 3 experience is on another level. Example, a state of mind where you are a point of conciousness and you perceive your environment as pure white light. You have no body and there's nothing there to see but this light. However, what you feel there is absolute bliss. There's nothing on earth like it. The purity and intensity overwhelm our human minds. The bad point is you don't want to return, its that intense. There are other examples but you need a lot of experience to become one with Frank's level 3. They are quite rare too

[orian]

The question I feel you're really asking is what is the difference between a lucid dream and an astral projection.

To that I answer the difference is only the level of awareness you have during the experience. The closer you can get to having the same kind of awarness you have now (I call it a waking awareness), the closer to a full projection you are.

So in effect there is no such thing as what we call lucid dreaming and astral projection, but rather a continuum of consciousness at varying degrees of perception. With the more practiced practitioners able to get the clearest perception of what they experience or "see" on this continuum? 

[orian]

Generally from what I've read many moons ago Frank labelled level 3 consciousness as an experience totally unlike the typical experiences we expect eg lucid dreaming. The 3 experience is on another level. Example, a state of mind where you are a point of conciousness and you perceive your environment as pure white light. You have no body and there's nothing there to see but this light. However, what you feel there is absolute bliss. There's nothing on earth like it. The purity and intensity overwhelm our human minds. The bad point is you don't want to return, its that intense. There are other examples but you need a lot of experience to become one with Frank's level 3. They are quite rare too

Frank does talk of a Focus 4 which sounds like what you describe as level 3. I was reading the Resource on him and he said there is Focus 1, Focus 2, Focus 3 and Focus 4. Focus Four is like what you describe. He said that Focus was "populated" by humans who got together and created the physical universe. That part of it sounds a bit outlandish. Because if they created the physical universe where did they come from if they were humans. I think Frank got a bit too enthusiastic there.

[Xanth]

Generally from what I've read many moons ago Frank labelled level 3 consciousness as an experience totally unlike the typical experiences we expect eg lucid dreaming. The 3 experience is on another level. Example, a state of mind where you are a point of conciousness and you perceive your environment as pure white light. You have no body and there's nothing there to see but this light. However, what you feel there is absolute bliss. There's nothing on earth like it. The purity and intensity overwhelm our human minds. The bad point is you don't want to return, its that intense. There are other examples but you need a lot of experience to become one with Frank's level 3. They are quite rare too

I believe you're referring to Frank's F4oC.  That's the point he described where what you explain occurs. Apparently.  👍

[Xanth]

So in effect there is no such thing as what we call lucid dreaming and astral projection, but rather a continuum of consciousness at varying degrees of perception. With the more practiced practitioners able to get the clearest perception of what they experience or "see" on this continuum? 

Yup!

[Szaxx]

Ha, Looks like another read would be my best option here. I forgot Frank has 4 levels, I mixed up a tad on this one doh!
Nice reminder Xanth, recall activated....

[Phildan1]

Szaxx, the reality frame you described is Focus 4 according to Frank

Focus 3... I know guys I don't write anymore but I have hundreds of Focus 3 experiences. I guess a human life is not enough to have enough of it, roaming around there at existing places.

[Xanth]

Szaxx, the reality frame you described is Focus 4 according to Frank

Focus 3... I know guys I don't write anymore but I have hundreds of Focus 3 experiences. I guess a human life is not enough to have enough of it, roaming around there at existing places.

Do share! 

[Volgerle]

In my personal view and (some) experience backing it up, a Lucid Dream 'starts' in F2 because I believe in 'dream state' you cannot automatically 'go to' F3. F2 is 'dream land' no matter which degree of lucidity you have.

However if you get lucid in F2 then you can turn it into a F3 experience by applying methods to 'get there' changing your level and state (I made a thread about this kind of 'conversion' recently).

So in other words, imv a LD is another way of travelling to F3 just like a direct projection is, which usually starts in the physical or from the Void (placed as the 'borderland' between F2/F3 by Frank Kepple) although the Void also often leads to F2 (at least in my case) if you are not focussed and lucid enough then.

You can also be lucid in F2, e.g. when you visit other people's dreamscapes or do retrievals there (Monroe F22 or F23 levels). Just not the other way round (unlucid in F3 or above).

[omcasey]

I am enjoying the conversation. But I still haven't heard what the difference is between F2 and F3, aside from a deeper lucidity. Let me ask this directly, is it the same difference as between a 'private' and 'consensus' reality? -- the latter being 'consensus'? Or is this off base?

[EscapeVelocity]

Casey, I think you are right. The experiential difference between F2 and F3 is one of moving from the personal to the consensus NPR. In different terms used over the years-

Personal versus Consensus NP Realities
Personal/Dream versus Consensus/Dream Realities
Personal Astral versus Consensus Astral
Personal Astral versus Astral Proper
Lower Astral versus Higher Astral

Using the Theosophical perspective, Higher Astral also involves/moves into Lower Mental and Higher Mental which eventually leads into Causal/Buddhic and higher-level experiences (the formless levels of Frank's F4)

Many of us have had experiences up & down and within these various levels

The fun is in the re-telling and exploration of the answers/insights!

It's been a few years, but maybe time I do a re-read of Frank's excellent Phasing Resource.

This thread maybe starts a whole new discussion of what we notice as differences from F2 to F3 experiences? For me, it is both the quality of higher lucidity, as well the fairly obvious "outside" construct of the situations/simulations/experiences themselves...they appear to be beyond my personal construct and something above and beyond...maybe Higher Self? But I think further outside.

Thoughts, anyone?

[Phildan1]

Do share! 

If you mean, Xanth, sharing mine, I will write an ebook soon. Who knows when, working life is also there. I can't really tell a date.

[Phildan1]

I am enjoying the conversation. But I still haven't heard what the difference is between F2 and F3, aside from a deeper lucidity. Let me ask this directly, is it the same difference as between a 'private' and 'consensus' reality? -- the latter being 'consensus'? Or is this off base?

I may share my insights and I tried to follow Frank's model all along. Not because I'm a believer, but to experience it first-hand, how it works.

Focus 2 is very deep in its nature. I tried to experiment with what seems to be "not right" about it. I mean not right about the whole model, I mean this part of the model. I didn't say Frank was wrong, but I'M not a believer type at all and we talked a lot about these with Szaxx personally years ago. It is the mind, sure, but hell, that mind of ours is just capable of making anything out of blue. You have no control most of the time, so I'm overwriting myself with self-suggestions each time when I try to experiment there.

I figured out something with the mechanics, from probably over a thousand of conscious F2 events. If you are passive and 100% focused, it is rock solid. You lose consciousness, it is fluctuating like you never notice a slight place shift where you are at another place. Maybe Focus 3, maybe another F2. If you concentrate back, it becomes solid again. This same spectrum of solidness will be true for Focus 3 too, being there. Or between both.

Focus 2 and Focus 3 is like you would never know for sure which is which because your interplay will endlessly overlay one with the another. Overlays are changing while your focus is here or there. The more you focus on Focus 3, being at a real place (real means consensus, everything is real, even your scenery being generated automatically), the more "solid" it is and you are needed to be passive. I managed to get to Focus 4 a few times, not that easy.

I found out a spectrum of awareness and focus of attention over the years. Here you go guys and girls and my main approach is not phasing but falling asleep. I can do phasing too, much harder.

Falling asleep > regain focus = Focus 2 sceneries > regain more, physical alike awareness, you solidify the Focus 2 interplay > lose focus > Drop into TPS (Third Person Sight) as an observer, seeing yourself as a character.

From TPS, you have two options according to the intent before sleep. It kicks in, you regain more focus of attention, Focus 2 solidifies, you are there fully again. You lose consciousness for a split second, it changes, the whole place or other stuff. You lose it more, False Awakening happens, you wake up with another memoryset at another "place". It can be still F2 or F3.

Now, when you are at Focus 3 places, worlds, you KNOW it. You lose consciousness there, you end up in an interplay loop of F2 overlays until you either end up in TPS, FA or physically waking up. I know guys I cannot explain it so well in a few sentences but I have a lot of work in this.

The main problem is that we don't notice the most of this. I try to notice even the slightest changes. Focus 3 is amazing. Focus 2 is also amazing! I cannot give an answer whatever we are doing Focus 2 fully or Leland was right about guides giving test.

But what I noticed that sometimes - if not always - guides will give sceneries for teaching purposes. One of my first diary from my first 6 years is around 1400 pages. Yeah, I'm not a believer but an experimenter. So when people are saying after a few, after a hundred of these that they "know" it... nah they are not even close.

And I didn't even mention experiencing parallel lives, probable or alternate lives, meeting with entities who know you, meeting with other versions of yourself, helping out strangers or rescuing "people" as a task, doing stuff you are doing in another life... all that stuff, all is there right now. A human life is truly short for this and there is always more. And people outside of this whole stuff will deny it or can't even imagine this whole stuff being real. And of course, if will also vary how you experience the same thing according to your worldview.

[Xanth]

I am enjoying the conversation. But I still haven't heard what the difference is between F2 and F3, aside from a deeper lucidity. Let me ask this directly, is it the same difference as between a 'private' and 'consensus' reality? -- the latter being 'consensus'? Or is this off base?

I don't see things as being as neat and tidy as Frank or Monroe would have us believe.  The focus models (of either) are too linear.

Private area vs a Consensus area... I simply don't see the dividing line. 

I wrote this article a while back for my website regarding this very subject:  http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2015/01/23/astral-projection-individual-collective-areas-consciousness-exist/

There are these non-physical concepts floating around that there are these "areas" of consciousness which are "individual" in nature, meaning it's only you there experiencing it and "collective" in nature, meaning that it's you experiencing the reality with many other individuals/awarenesses/entities/beings/etc. When you look at consciousness as a whole, you realize that this kind of separation is simply illogical. Allow me to explain.

By the very nature that everything is consciousness – everything is collective. There is only "everything". The simple fact is that the individualness you experience on a daily basis (the idea that you are separate from everyone else) is an illusion. So when people have a projection and they seem to be in a reality all by themselves, or they have what they will arbitrarily label as a lucid dream, they come to the conclusion that they were within some individual area of consciousness which is only for them and them alone.

There's only your perception of individual and collective experiences. The difference is like standing in a crowded room with a blindfold that blocks all light from your eyes and ear plugs that block all noise from your ears and then making the, obviously plain as day assumption that you're all alone. Your perception says that since you can't see or hear anyone else that you were all by yourself, even though standing all around you are these other individuals. That's how the non-physical / consciousness kind of works.

You're never alone. You only perceive yourself to be because that how you're currently interpreting the reality that you're experiencing. Someone / something could be standing right in front of you and you'd never see them because you just don't perceive them.

This is also what I mean when I say that WHAT you experience is Objective, but HOW you experience it is Subjective. So how do you experience something closer to how it's Objectively presented? You need to keep yourself grounded and centered. This will remove as much subjectiveness as possible which is being fueled by your own awareness. Even then, if you're able to do that, you still might not ever experience something 100% objective as it's really presented.

[Volgerle]

I am enjoying the conversation. But I still haven't heard what the difference is between F2 and F3, aside from a deeper lucidity. Let me ask this directly, is it the same difference as between a 'private' and 'consensus' reality? -- the latter being 'consensus'? Or is this off base?

I'd say 'yes' to this more or less.

But there come more attributes that come with the 'private' and 'consensous'.

First of all the 'consensus' is based on group thought and thus more stable, you cannot always change the environment if it was upheld by thousands or millions of souls, e.g. "The Park (Focus 27") or similar higher Focus levels.

Second, the 'consensus' is also 'collective' and so you can meet 'real' other people while most in F2 are dream characters or your own thought forms (but not necessarily exclusively).

So the 'private' is very thought- and/or emotion-responsive and to me it is therefore practically identical to s.o.'s 'dreamscape'.

But there is fluidity and you can easily enter a higher - more stable - area from a dream (F2) by way of focussed thought and increased lucidity combined with strong intent / willpower. It is also the other way round, so there are no clear boundaries which often makes it difficult to differentiate between the two or to determine "where" in mindspace you are.

As a sidenote: This is why I love the Void so much since there things are 'clearer' and more straight all the time even if you manifest or receive inputs with your different senses (visual, audio, kinesthetic). You have a lot of control as long as you are in this state.

[Szaxx]

Recently I set up an experience based upon a concept.
 This was the intellectuality of everyone as an individual and why some are 'recieving' a small dose whilst others get buckets full.
 I can post a brief version of it here if you wish. It may be F3 or F4 related, you label it. It was very lucid as I had to control the NP substrate it was built on.
 I managed to manifest entities this time for me to stay out of the formless mental zone typical with ideals and concepts.

[omcasey]

Hey, thanks for your responses, EV, Phildan, Xanth, Volgerie..

I have been away on a little trip the past couple weeks and I will be away for one more, not much online time to absorb and comment but I am reading and really appreciating what everyone is saying. When I get home I will absorb more and dive in if it seems the conversation has an in for me. Right now I just want to say thanks for your inputs. I always meant to study Frank's lay of the land more in depth. I really enjoy the various patterns outlined by others of us. I have my own, but I also have the ability and propensity to shift my own to understand another's. In fact, it is one of my favorite things in all of existence.

Nite nite, everyone..  (  dream sweet  )