The RTZ OBE

[RenaissanceMan]

In my own experience, while out of body, the less I thought about what was around me, the more accurate it appeared to look (and sharp but usually black & white).

[Greytraveller]

Again I stress the importance of not placing too much importance on either 3 dimensional physical senses or any one's own " higher" senses during an OBE. Perceptions are not always accurate and therefore are subjective.
The OBE researcher Robert Crookall noted that many RTZ/here-now/ethereal OBEs involved very confusing and vague perceptions while a person was in close proximity to his or her physical body. People who were OOB in this state often reported a dense mist or fog and the inability to accuratey perceive their (physical) surroundings. Crookall called this state the 'body-veil' state of consciousness.
I suspect something similar (if not identical) is taking place during RTZ projections. Perhaps a persons "higher" OOB perceptions are interacting with, and being distorted by, their nearby physical body's energy field. Or perhaps various thought forms or non sentient energy fields manifest as objects in a familiar RTZ location. :question:    That might make sense because many people have reported being able to create their own environment while being out of body.

[Inward]

Hi,

I wanted to add my own perspective / spice.

It's true that we have our unique experience and it may take some people a few years to become advance while others may take decades. I usually throw in the typical 5 years of solid obe experience before the average person begins to get past the illusions and such. So at 3 obe's per week, five years comes to 780 obe's.  I recall while in high school how I wanted to know what the average was. While going to numerous astral projection seminars there were other people who also wanted to know. I have no idea if 5 years is the correct average, but that's what they say. Now if you only get 1 obe per week then that might not count at all. For example, if you play tennis 40 hours per week then perhaps in 10 years you could be a professional.  So that's 20800 hours. Yet that does not mean you'll become a professional if you put in 20800 hours of tennis in say 40 years.

Personally I'm all for help and advice. Hey, the universe is infinitely old, so surely there are and always has been those far more advanced capable of seeing my charkas and present state of being and I'm not talking about the fakes in India, no offense to anyone. If I break my arm, I'm going to seek a doctors help, lol. I'm not going to tread the path alone and not allow anyone to influence my reality. I want to be open minded. If I want to become a doctor, then I go school and seek the help of others who have treaded the path. Yet I still become my own unique person, not a copy of my teacher.

Sorry, I just find it odd how so many people are appalled by a spiritual teacher. Perhaps it is due to so many fakes and frauds in the world. How sad because a real teacher can save one from a world of pain and time. For example, the last thing one wants is to experience unnatural kundalini pain because that's a whole knew type of pain that makes you want to die!

Here's a little test to experience just a smidgen of perhaps a new type of pain. I call it panic attack pain, but it's nothing compared to improperly developed kundalini pain. Now do this at your own risk and seek your doctors' advice. Hold your breath and wait until you start involuntarily gulping for air. It will kind of be like hiccups, but your mouth will remain closed. After several of these gasping gulps with your mouth remaining closed, you should begin to feel an instant dreadful cold chill in spine and soon enough the panic attacks will hit you. This might not work on everyone though. Now multiply that times a thousand, but then you will not be able to open your mouth and make the pain go away.

Folks, that's what happens when you seek the path with help and no care in the world. When you get older you begin to think more about pain. All types of pain, but physical pain in nothing in comparison. There have been too many nightmare reports of badly developed energy system / kundalini. They say physical pain is dreadful, emotional pain is a killer, and mental pain is out of this world. Kundalini pain is a road to hell.

So in good conscience I can't recommend any path alone without some guidance. Help from teachers is good. Big brothers are good. Friends are good. Just stay away from the fakes.

Inward

[Inward]

In all fairness, I should say that pain promotes growth, but all in moderation and balance, right?

Inward

[mactombs]

So at 3 obe's per week, five years comes to 780 obe's.

Just how does one have 3 OBE's per week?

It's not that I think it's impossible, I just don't understand how 3 OBEs per week is natural for one person, and to another 3 a year is a godsend. There has to be a reason why.

So in good conscience I can't recommend any path alone without some guidance. Help from teachers is good. Big brothers are good. Friends are good. Just stay away from the fakes.

How do you propose we tell the difference? Demand proof?

[Hagethuriel]

It's the anomalies that we experience that intrigue me.  Why are windows in the wrong place and pieces of furniture totally missing?

I think that we mirror the view , the etheric double is not an exact replica , and some things become invisible or have not become visible yet because of the energy attached to them .

[upstream]

Usually what people call here RTZ OBEs are "fake." After the first couple of "real" RTZ OBE the root of the OBE state naturally shifts "upward, " retracts further from the here and now to lessen the shock that "etheric projections" exert on the organism.

So what is a "real" and what is a "fake" RTZ OBE? Both experience use the same interpretating system and pictures from the available (waking state bounded) memory to represent what is perceived. Similarly, in both case perception is composed from "internal" and "external" components, that is, representing the state of the total self and the external world (physical or "non-physical") at the same time.

The difference is that in a "real" RTZ OBE you access external information via a dens energy field that interacts with objects of the physical world. If you have a "real" RTZ OBE your movement and perception is pretty chaotic and high tension power lines show up all the time. This energy field 'decondensates' in the magnetosphere but keep its coherence during a "fake" RTZ OBE.

In a "fake" RTZ OBE you perceive the "low astral," or more precisely a specific region of it what I call "landing unit." This is projected around yourself to protect you from the "real astral" (sort of an enormous 3D space).

This shield is partly constructed by your expectations based on the act of separation (somatosensory detachment is not directly related to the change in perception). This is a bubble of some sort made by yourself and partly shaped or even designed by other beings. By being put in a test you will be trapped in this region as long as you found your way out by solving the test.

So if you found yourself in a weird looking bedroom the best thing you can do is to ask aloud what you can gain from this situation. "Anomalies in your bedroom" are to make you realize your actual state of being and to ask for the reason. The state where false awakenings take place is actually a parallel state. You can always hear a voice if you ask something and plug in the ear of your dream body.

[Astral Projection]

Just how does one have 3 OBE's per week?

There are people that can project at will... Nothing unusual..

[Inward]

Astral Projection is correct. There are people who can project at will. My friend can project within 10 seconds, every time.

So in good conscience I can't recommend any path alone without some guidance. Help from teachers is good. Big brothers are good. Friends are good. Just stay away from the fakes.

How do you propose we tell the difference? Demand proof?

The same way you tell any fake. Analyze and test them. Sometimes you can quickly spot a fake. Sometimes it takes time.  It's a shame there are so many fakes!

Inward

[Inward]

One way to tell you're in RTZ is testing. While out of body you could go to a place you've never been and study the surroundings. Then go there in your physical body and verify. One problem is that this could filter out a lot of legitimate projections. Even though it might not be RTZ, it could still be a legitimate projection to a parallel universe. The popular Many World Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics teaches there are infinite parallel universes. You could easily project to one of those parallel universes. I think the trick for most is trying to sync in the universe that your physical body is located.

Inward

[upstream]

How can you believe that your friend can project within 10 seconds, every time? I'm not saying that it's impossible (could be though), but to have such acquaintance is very unlikely.

Countless of my "RTZ projections" degenerated into semi lucid dreams about parallel universes. It is strange because I'm certainly not obsessed with the theme. These dreams seem to be too naive to be taken as any kind of evidence. I don't know, probably they are both unconscious expectation and insights into the work of my future creating parts.

A more serious, I mean lucid experience would start with zooming around then missing a target, or by having an autopilot session, allowing myself to be transported like a leaf in wind. Then I would go through a border symbol of some sort (typically a series of enormous walls) and end up in a city / classroom setting. The transition between symbolic landscape and the living scene is always smooth and powerful. I would instantly meet someone telling that I'm asleep and dreaming. To get a clear situation right at the beginning I would prove my claim with a trick. Then we would talk about the differences between our world.

The entire scenario looks too simple to be true, but one thing persists that may add some credibility: we use visual symbols in excessive amounts. It is like projecting brief movies into each other's heads and almost exactly the same feeling I have with other dreamers (without the pronounced heads). Vision is never a concern in these dreams. Its mechanism even tend to escape from my attention just like the unusual way of our communication. Another common elements are lifts and an authorization process at the end of these dreams which I have to pass through before waking up. For some reason I never wake up prematurely from these dreams.

[Inward]

How can you believe that your friend can project within 10 seconds, every time? I'm not saying that it's impossible (could be though), but to have such acquaintance is very unlikely.

I agree it's a rarity to hear about such people. I think there are a lot of these people, but they more or less choose to watch in the background. I think there's a stage in a persons human emollition where they change in a relatively short period of time. Sort of like evolving to the next level. Anyhow, most people don't really publize such abilities with the exception of a few like Samael Aun Weor. Actually I don't know much about Samael except that his students say Mr. Weor would have to be careful while even walking down the street. He could be walking and suddenly realize he's not in his physical body, lol. I heard that face to face from one of his main students.

Inward

[stubborn-envelope]

http://www.robertpeterson.org/obebook.html

In this online book, the author deals with the problem of differences between physical reality and the OBE state.  He describes seeing some vague mass of astral matter floating in the air, and he couldn't tell what it was.  He believes these things occur because the right side of the brain (artistic side) is interpretting the experience, so to engage the left side of his brain, he mentally performed some math problems.  As he did, the mass of astral matter became clear, and he was able to tell it was a plant in his room, sitting on the dresser (not floating in the air).  Did this work because he believed it would or because the right side of the brain really was interpretting the experience until he changed the fact?  Who knows, but I think that the theory should be considered and applied as a solution to the problem.

James

[Inward]

I think it's not only the instrument of brain that needs training to accurately translate the information but also the astral instrument needs to help accurately transmit information to the brain. It makes sense if physical and astral are different realities with unique laws.

Also, the projector eventually learns to not influence the environment. The novice could have easily created the plant without knowing it since astral matter is easily influenced?

Inward

[upstream]

I think there are a lot of these people, but they more or less choose to watch in the background.

I'm sure this is the case.

[nwb]

3 obes a week is a lot? i used to have obes every night all night for 3 months, i used to count how many obes i had but i just stopped counting after so much, i would rarely have obes while awake tho, sometimes when i would be sitting down i would catch a glimpse of myself from the back of my head, for some reason if i threw up too i would see myself from the back of my head, not sure why throwing up would cause an obe tho