The thing revealed itself.

[Naykid]

What Xanth is going through is very close to what I went through, and when I posted about it yesterday I should have mentioned that I do believe there is evil in the world thus it does make sense that the evil should bleed over into the astral.  

My point in the post, that apparently I didn't make very good, is ignoring it.   In my opinion it is so much better than doing a series of anti neg rituals.   I believe, and believe me I can now say I have experienced evil, is to try your very best to ignore it.  I believe that doing such things like salt water baths, and all the other things Mr. Bruce recommends does nothing but feed the evil energy and give it strength whilst doing so.  I'm not about to try out my theory that if given enough strength the evil can physically harm you, but I've been told it can, and these people that have told me have done all the cleansing rituals that they could get their hands on. They ate, slept, walked, talked about Negs day in and day out.  I still believe we create the intensity of the evil.

[CFTraveler]

There is more than enough evidence to suggest their existence, which is why your "I haven't met them therefore they aren't real" conclusion is very flawed. While you are not expected to blindly accept their existence without having first experienced it, it is wholly illogical and overconfident (arrogant) to think that your lack of experience of them contradicts and supercedes the countless people who have direct experience of them.

Alan, here you are doing what you accuse Xanth of doing- which is call his conclusion "wrong" because you don't agree with it.  Now mind you, I don't have a definite opinion on the objectivity or 'reality' of the neg thing- but I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it doesn't matter- to me- whether they are objectively real or not- I just use whatever arsenal works for me to get rid of the manifestations, whatever their cause.
I find that fighting about whether they're real or not is a waste of time, because it's a very personal thing, and no one's opinion is wrong for themselves.

Dig?

[AlanRK]

Well AlanRK, we're just gonna have to agree to disagree then. 

If you read my many past posts on the subject, I very clearly have a logical reason for my beliefs.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe that these "entities" exist outside the astral as anything more than thought-forms.

I have read your thoughts on the subject on your blog, I assume this is a summary as I do not have the time to go through all of your posts. My points remain just as relevant, I don't see anything on your blog which contradicts them. Your main foundation on your opinion seems to be that since you haven't met any, they don't exist. I will now ask you from where you got the necessary data to conclude that all negative entities are thought-forms. If you haven't met them, then really you can't logically make the conclusion either way that they're real or imaginary, and it is most certainly irresponsible of you to be spreading your belief (as opposed to knowledge) around as if it is fact.

Your flawed logic can just as easily apply to the physical as well. I've met people who say they've never been in a fight in their entire lives; should they then conclude that violence doesn't exist?. Up until a few years ago I lived in a house all my life which had never been robbed; should I have then concluded that there was no one out there who would rob my house given the chance? Sure enough, I moved house and in the space of two years I've had around 6 successful and attempted burglaries.

I'm running out of examples, but basically I would like to know on what you are basing your conclusion, because right now it looks like an enormous assumption.

[AlanRK]

Alan, here you are doing what you accuse Xanth of doing- which is call his conclusion "wrong" because you don't agree with it.  Now mind you, I don't have a definite opinion on the objectivity or 'reality' of the neg thing- but I came to the conclusion a long time ago that it doesn't matter- to me- whether they are objectively real or not- I just use whatever arsenal works for me to get rid of the manifestations, whatever their cause.
I find that fighting about whether they're real or not is a waste of time, because it's a very personal thing, and no one's opinion is wrong for themselves.

Dig?

We are not fighting, we are exchanging information. Xanth has said in another topic that he doesn't mind being disagreed with or asked to elaborate on certain views of his.

I am not so much saying his conclusion is wrong (although I think it is wrong), but I am giving some very valid points on why his conclusion-making in this case is flawed, and I am offering some pretty solid evidence for that too.

[Xanth]

I'm running out of examples, but basically I would like to know on what you are basing your conclusion, because right now it looks like an enormous assumption.

I base them, as I already said, on my experiences.  But let's be honest here, what part of your belief that "negative entities" isn't an "enormous assumption" either?

It's not a knock on you or your beliefs... but I'm not exactly going to take you at your word either.  Neither will you ever catch me saying that someone elses beliefs are wrong. 

So we're really left at square one:  To agree to disagree. 

[AlanRK]

I base them, as I already said, on my experiences.  But let's be honest here, what part of your belief that "negative entities" isn't an "enormous assumption" either?

It's not a knock on you or your beliefs... but I'm not exactly going to take you at your word either.  Neither will you ever catch me saying that someone elses beliefs are wrong.  

My "belief" isn't a belief at all; I've had uncountable experience to back up my conclusion, as well as correlating experiences with dozens of others projectors and sources on astral projection, as well as common sense. I do not wish to entertain beliefs as I am not a religious person.

And again, you aren't basing it off your experiences because you've already said that you have no experience of negative entities. You are basing it off the fact that you have had no experience with negative entities, which is in itself a fallacy. You have taken it one step further, though, by assuming that all negative entities are self-created thought forms. I am asking; from where did THIS conclusion arise? Because it obviously cannot be born from experience, as we have already established you have no experience of negative entities. The only logical conclusion here is that you, yourself, have had no experience with negative entities in the astral. Further conclusions like; negative entities do not objectively exist, they are not independant beings, and they are thought forms are all either assumptions, or conclusions drawn from something other than your experience. Thus far it only appears to be the former.

So we're really left at square one:  To agree to disagree.  

Well... No. I did just list a variety of points which I used to question your conclusion. You did not attempt to address those points even slightly, and I have seen no answer to them from your perspective in previous posts of yours, nor have you gone into the level of elaboration which I went into even on your blog. You certainly can ignore those points if you wish, but if you aren't up to explaining your views when scrutinized under common logic, then you really should think twice about reciting them as if they are fact. This is not about being confident in your own beliefs, this is about how you present your beliefs to others, especially with the knowledge that people can absorb them unwittingly and allow themselves to be influenced by them. Speaking in absolutes is rarely ever a productive line that encourages genuine investigation.

You did indicate in an earlier post that you didn't mind disagreement and that you would gladly elaborate when asked. If I had known you weren't going to do that then I wouldn't have wasted my time typing out several paragraphs like this only to be ignored. I am not annoyed, just please let me know in future if you do not wish to pursue a certain topic as it saves us both time. Just like in lawful scrutiny, however, inferences can be picked up on through silence, and often it says more than an elaboration would have.

[Xanth]

I too don't see my "beliefs" as such.  To me they are 100% KNOWNS... just like yours are to you. 

I am asking; from where did THIS conclusion arise?

And I responded... "From my experiences".

I'm not going to bother pointing out all the flaws in your post, because it just does not matter.

As I said, you either agree with my belief, or you don't... I'm not gonna waste time, as you have (and admitted to) in trying to sway the belief or opinion of someone else.  That's not why I'm here. 

Do you understand now, why it doesn't matter?

[AlanRK]

I too don't see my "beliefs" as such.  To me they are 100% KNOWNS... just like yours are to you. 
And I responded... "From my experiences".

I'm not going to bother pointing out all the flaws in your post, because it just does not matter.

As I said, you either agree with my belief, or you don't... I'm not gonna waste time, as you have (and admitted to) in trying to sway the belief or opinion of someone else.  That's not why I'm here. 

Do you understand now, why it doesn't matter?

I have never at any point said I am wanting to sway the belief or opinion of someone else. <- It's as simple as that to point out a flaw in a post. I do not think you aren't doing it because it doesn't matter. If information doesn't matter, then why bother communicating? Communication is about exchanging information, after all.

I am still not interested in changing your belief, but what I, and seemingly a few others, are picking up on is a theme of you presenting your highly presumptious beliefs as if they are true. I have stated at least three times how this can severely impact people who are just looking for genuine, solid information to go about their methods. This thread is one such example; you made assumptions about the topic maker and their experience which is quite uncalled for. Although I don't value such a thing, the information underneath your username on this forum can give the illusion of authority and knowledge to newcomers to the astral. Whether you acknowledge it or not you are seen as a reliable source of information by some. Giving out information which you convey with absolute certainty is reckless, pure and simple. And I think I have more than demonstrated how your conclusion-drawing skills are just not up to scratch. I have asked for you to explain and elaborate on your viewpoint on this topic several times, and I gave you many angles from which to do this. You haven't done so, so I hope it proves to at least those who would otherwise take your words as reliable that they are less-than-so, even if it does not seem to get through to you yourself.

[Xanth]

*sigh*

Enjoy flogging your dead horse.  

*edit:  I've re-added my little disclaimer to my sig... apparently people can't tell the difference between belief and fact... so, it's still required.

[personalreality]

so, would the proper protocol be to preface every single post with "this is my opinion based on my experience which makes it absolute truth in my reality"?

i haven't actually read the discussion that's going down here, but this has been a problem in the past.  people look at things other people say as them being presumptuous and pretentious, but it's really not the case.  for that person, at that time, the statement is their absolute truth, what more can you say?

[Stookie]

In my case, I've never really come across anything I would label "evil", but I've come across beings that aren't all "good" either. Seeing that there are beings that exist in the astral, and there are evil/bad people in the physical, I'm not going to rule the possibilities of bad/evil astral beings. I'm sure there is a LOT that happens outside of my realm of experience.

[AlanRK]

so, would the proper protocol be to preface every single post with "this is my opinion based on my experience which makes it absolute truth in my reality"?

i haven't actually read the discussion that's going down here, but this has been a problem in the past.  people look at things other people say as them being presumptuous and pretentious, but it's really not the case.  for that person, at that time, the statement is their absolute truth, what more can you say?

Sorry but I do not buy into the "a persons beliefs are true for them" crap. Yes, it is true for them, but of what relevance is that? Objective reality trumps all of that. I don't see why one would even bother to pursue any sort of knowledge or information if they're just going to submit themselves to the belief that they're living in their own personal reality. Why bother to astral project if you're just going to have the attitude that it's all a (very elaborate) dream? It's obvious that we are living in dimensions with laws attached to them, try and apply a "personal reality" theory here practically in the physical and see how well that works out. It's more convincing in the astral, but by no means is it anything close to a rule.

And yes, the proper protocol in most cases is to just say something simple like "In my opinion...", "I think that...", "It's possible that...". The first one even has an internet acronym for it, it doesn't get much simpler than that.

Xanth: Good that you've added a disclaimer. At least that's something. You earlier told me that you don't mind being disagreed with and that you don't mind open discussion. You seem to have become exasperated for some reason, when all I asked was for you to present some logical evidence-based points. I can see now that you lied about being open to discussion, and as a result I wasted several paragraphs worth of typing. Please do not lie to me again, as I do not like lies.

[NoY]

i Kicked a Gnome 

[Naykid]

In my case, I've never really come across anything I would label "evil", but I've come across beings that aren't all "good" either. Seeing that there are beings that exist in the astral, and there are evil/bad people in the physical, I'm not going to rule the possibilities of bad/evil astral beings. I'm sure there is a LOT that happens outside of my realm of experience.

Don't forget Palin, she's pure evil. 

Ahhhhhh this discussion takes me back....I believe I have grown since then.  I think this little tete'tete could have been avoided had Xanth simply answered the questions.

[Xanth]

Xanth: Good that you've added a disclaimer. At least that's something. You earlier told me that you don't mind being disagreed with and that you don't mind open discussion. You seem to have become exasperated for some reason, when all I asked was for you to present some logical evidence-based points. I can see now that you lied about being open to discussion, and as a result I wasted several paragraphs worth of typing. Please do not lie to me again, as I do not like lies.

*sigh*

The question was fully answered... just because you didn't like the response is not my problem.  
It's the only answer you're getting, because it's the only answer that matters.

As for lying... wtf?
I'm sorry you felt that I lied to you... but you and I know that's not the case.  
If you wish to attempt to point out otherwise, please do.

I've always said I don't mind people disagreeing with me.  Disagree with me all you want.    It doesn't change my beliefs at all.
Now, what I did say was that I'd elaborate when I chose to and I saw no reason to elaborate in this thread.  So obviously you only saw what you wanted to see.  

EDIT: On second thought, I'm gonna leave this open for now.

[AlanRK]

The question was fully answered...

Then it has already been fully demonstrated to be a fallacy.

[Killa Rican]

Too lazy to read the whole thread but i cant understand what's going on. Everyone is entitled to there opinion and belief and freedom to express/share it as much as they want to. If you dont like what that person has to say without getting into something nasty, just take it with a grain of salt and ignore it or block it out.

I don't always agree with Xanth that entity's we may encounter are just subconscious fluff. But at least he stays true to himself if he says he doesn't believe then think in his perspective, if Negs to HIM existed then they would come to him whether he DID believe in them or NOT. There's really not much left to argue. This is worse then arguing religion where you cant even prove anything to the other person all it comes down to is "My Book says this and your book says the opposite." It cant occur to them that they both MIGHT be wrong.

What it comes down to is you can NEVER prove something to another person unless they were in your shoes, and vice versa. Maybe that's just how the subconscious works, in a way it interacts with you maybe in perspective it is only suppose to make sense to YOU. Everyone's subconscious do speak different 'languages'.

I really doubt the disclaimer is necessary. If it was then everyone should put it in there sigs. Fair is Fair.

[Xanth]

Then it has already been fully demonstrated to be a fallacy.

Wow dude...
Do you act like this on every forum you visit?

Ask a question... then when someone doesn't answer to YOUR satisfaction, you start calling them a liar and then outright attack their beliefs?  Calling them lies and fallacies?
You certainly are a piece of work.

I have given you nothing but respect for you and your beliefs since your first post, and you've done nothing but belittle me and mine.
I'm sorry you feel you have to act that way... if you can't post here with respect, don't post at all please.

I really doubt the disclaimer is necessary. If it was then everyone should put it in there sigs. Fair is Fair.

I agree wholeheartedly.