Tom Campbell

[Ricochet]

It all goes back to the title of his book (and his perspective): *MY* Big Toe.  It's paramount to understand why that word "MY" is in there. 
Lumaza mentioned it earlier in this thread.  His Big Toe is based entirely (100%) on his own experiences... and you can NEVER have his experience. Never.  Many people try to have the experience which someone else has shared, and you'll never do it.

I'm a little confused. A scientific hypothesis, as I'm assuming Tom is wanting to present, is based on falsifiable and repeatable experiments. For example, I can stand on a building and drop rocks all day long and they will always fall DOWN. I can have all 7 billion of the earth's population do the same thing and they will all have the SAME experience. This is how we know things, we conduct many experiments and get predictable results and make predictions.

I haven't had the experiences you all have, but I realize that the experiences are different for different people and probably much of it is a metaphor and gets filtered through one's own interpretation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Here's my beef. From what I have seen, Tom presents his Toe as a fact more or less. Consciousness is finite. You are a bacterium in a gut. Love is a process to lower entropy. This is what happens when you die. Reincarnation happens this way. Sims game, Yada yada yada. If these experiences are not repeatable st some level, what's the point? You can't have it both ways. You can't say "this is how it is" and than say you can never duplicate my experiences - i.e. test my conclusions. Why even bother? Like I said earlier, there is other information from various sources that dovetails together and paints a different picture than what Tom is saying. Isn't it more reasonable to craft a Toe from the experiences of many rather than just one? To see what is repeated over and over again? Unless of course, you are going to tell me that the ultimate reality is different for everyone, in which case whatever Tom has experienced is only for him and what has it to do with me?

[Xanth]

I'm a little confused. A scientific hypothesis, as I'm assuming Tom is wanting to present, is based on falsifiable and repeatable experiments. For example, I can stand on a building and drop rocks all day long and they will always fall DOWN. I can have all 7 billion of the earth's population do the same thing and they will all have the SAME experience. This is how we know things, we conduct many experiments and get predictable results and make predictions.

When we compare results within the constraints of this physical reality, yes, within a small variance (VERY SMALL, we're talking micrometer differences), experiences are going to measure out relatively accurately.
That's because we're all using, relatively speaking, the same measuring devices, which are all physical-based.

We can't make the same comparisons when it comes to the non-physical.  Science is physical.  We can only measure things using science in terms of how they interact "physically" with us.  Otherwise, there's nothing to do science on.  That's why, when we're doing 'science' in regards to things like projection, we attempt to bring a physical component to the mix which we can track.  It's not perfect and it, too, has it's problems, but it's the *ONLY* way we can do it.  For example, putting a playing card in a separate room and trying to read it while non-physical.  Even in such a scenario, there are variables which we don't even know exist working against it.  That's why most "scientists" shy away from this kind of research, because it's, as you said, not falsifiable.

Tom does derive most of his book in a scientific manner, as per the experiments and such he did with Monroe and the other explorers back in the day.  But in the end, we're still talking about something "non-physical" which is unique and personal to each person.  It's scientific in as much that he's brought as much physicality to the mix as he is able to.

I'm not sure if that answers your question, but it should provide you with some more context.

I haven't had the experiences you all have, but I realize that the experiences are different for different people and probably much of it is a metaphor and gets filtered through one's own interpretation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

That's correct.  The filters you use to interpret your experiences are based upon what you've already experienced throughout your life... and your life experience is YOUR life experience.  Different from anyone else's. 

Here's my beef. From what I have seen, Tom presents his Toe as a fact more or less. Consciousness is finite. You are a bacterium in a gut. Love is a process to lower entropy. This is what happens when you die. Reincarnation happens this way. Sims game, Yada yada yada. If these experiences are not repeatable st some level, what's the point? You can't have it both ways. You can't say "this is how it is" and than say you can never duplicate my experiences - i.e. test my conclusions. Why even bother? Like I said earlier, there is other information from various sources that dovetails together and paints a different picture than what Tom is saying. Isn't it more reasonable to craft a Toe from the experiences of many rather than just one? To see what is repeated over and over again? Unless of course, you are going to tell me that the ultimate reality is different for everyone, in which case whatever Tom has experienced is only for him and what has it to do with me?

*HIS* TOE is fact to him.  He's experienced it directly.

This is what always gets my goat (baaaaaaaaah) around here and why I, also, refuse to start discussions with phrases such as "in my opinion" (although I do sometimes, out of pure habit)...
*EVERYTHING* you read is an opinion.  It doesn't matter how strongly someone puts that opinion forward or how "factual" you feel they're trying to be... what someone says is nothing more than an opinion... and it should be treated as such.

If you understand that all experience is personal and unique to you, then you can understand why you can't craft a TOE from any experience other than your own.
For example, if I tell you something you *ONLY* have two ways of interacting with it: You either believe it or you don't believe it.  That's it.  It can never be part of your experience which you draw from, because YOU never experienced it.

Yes, the ultimate truth of reality IS different for each person.  The most you'll find are similarities between what YOU experience compared to what someone else experiences, but that's it.  That's the closest you can/will ever get to that.  Sometimes it's those similarities which help us to get over the next hurdle of understanding. 

But yes, you're essentially in this spiritual growth thing for yourself.  It's actually, in a way, a very selfish endevour.  hehe

Although, in the end, if you feel Tom's information has no value to you... then don't read it, don't listen to it.  It's all good.  I thought it had no value either when I watched my first lecture of his... then a couple years later I went back to it and gave it another shot and found I understood what he was trying to say much better.  Every so often, as I progress, I get a better and better handle on what he's trying to say.

[Bluebird]

Xanth, my man...

It's just that... that "feeling good" shouldn't be the driving force for WHY you did the good act in the first place.

Why not? If it's not feeling good, then what is the driving force? This goes along with the whole enlightenment carrot and stick game.
I often do things for people without thinking "what am I going to get out of this" but I'm sure subconsciously I'm going to somehow feel better in the process of helping, or after the helping is done.

Being a physical entity requires you to be selfish.

then you're not really doing it for a good reason, you're doing it for a selfish reason really.  The INTENT behind the act is paramount to deciding whether it causes spiritual growth or the opposite.

Why is selfishness not a good reason? And what do you mean by "good"? Is it something God deems as good? I know you don't mean that. Can you explain this enlightened "INTENT" of yours?

[Xanth]

Xanth, my man...

Why not? If it's not feeling good, then what is the driving force? This goes along with the whole enlightenment carrot and stick game.
I often do things for people without thinking "what am I going to get out of this" but I'm sure subconsciously I'm going to somehow feel better in the process of helping, or after the helping is done.

Being a physical entity requires you to be selfish.

If you don't understand what I'm saying at this point then it doesn't matter what answer I give you as it doesn't mesh with what you want to understand.
I wouldn't have understood what I'm saying a few years ago either.  In fact, I remember arguing with other Astral Pulse members against what I'm saying right now.  Funny how things come full circle.

You will eventually understand, but I can't take you there.

Why is selfishness not a good reason? And what do you mean by "good"? Is it something God deems as good? I know you don't mean that. Can you explain this enlightened "INTENT" of yours?

http://www.unlimitedboundaries.ca/2014/02/23/best-method-astral-projection-paths-spiritual-growth-2/
Read that.  It might not fully answer your question, but I can't think of any other way to answer it which I haven't already said.  In that article I explain Love-based learning and Fear-based learning.

Apart from that, I'm not sure what else you're looking for.  I can't help you anymore than what I've already said.  Sorry.

[Bluebird]

If you don't understand what I'm saying at this point then it doesn't matter what answer I give you as it doesn't mesh with what you want to understand.

That's not what I'm trying to communicate. I don't really understand anything. That's why I've stopped telling people how I think they should spiritually progress. What actions are progression and what actions are digression is not up to me to judge. All action is a movement.

I wouldn't have understood what I'm saying a few years ago either.

Does this mean that you are more spiritually advanced than me? That your intent is more loving than mine?

I remember arguing with other Astral Pulse members against what I'm saying right now.

I hope we are not arguing! I'm honestly not trying to have a debate or prove anything. We are all learning from each other. I've learned a lot from you.
I'm hoping to contribute to you and others by asking questions and sharing ideas.

You will eventually understand, but I can't take you there.

But there's nowhere to go. No one can take anyone anywhere. So I'm questioning this higher purpose or better place that is promised by so many. Hoped for by so many. Demonstrated by so very, very, very, few.

[Lumaza]

That's not what I'm trying to communicate. I don't really understand anything. That's why I've stopped telling people how I think they should spiritually progress.

That's good, you should never "tell" anyone how they should Spiritual progress. That's for them to learn themselves. That's why we came to this realm in this "physical form" in the first place.

But there's nowhere to go. No one can take anyone anywhere.

You are the one that takes yourself there. This is why we Astral Project. On some level it has been decided that we are ready to see and experience more than just this "physical realm". That we are ready to see "outside the box". That's what a shift in consciousness entails.

I have said that everyone can learn how to create that shift, but it doesn't mean they will actually be successful with it. Many come to this Forum, they read what they can, try it a few times, fail, then quit. Others come here and use practice, patience and in the end they do persevere. It's not the "flavor of the day" to them. They realize this is a "lifetime" experience. They know there is no rush and that when they put in the work and effort, they will reap the rewards. But that's the same with anything in life that you truly put your intent and focus on.

[Ricochet]

Yes, the ultimate truth of reality IS different for each person.  The most you'll find are similarities between what YOU experience compared to what someone else experiences, but that's it.  That's the closest you can/will ever get to that.  Sometimes it's those similarities which help us to get over the next hurdle of understanding.  

So you're saying that what is the ultimate underlying truth/reality of everything is different for each person? Tom's might be his Big Toe and reincarnating millions of times into his Sims game, lowering entropy etc etc; what he says is only really for him? Yours and mine are completely different?

[Xanth]

So you're saying that what is the ultimate underlying truth/reality of everything is different for each person? Tom's might be his Big Toe and reincarnating millions of times into his Sims game, lowering entropy etc etc; what he says is only really for him? Yours and mine are completely different?

Pardon me.  Not "ultimate truth"... I meant "experience".  "Experience" is different for each person.

My allergies are going crazy right now and up is down and left is right for me right now.  LOL 

[Bluebird]

That's good, you should never "tell" anyone how they should Spiritual progress.

Of course. I never was the type to stand on a soapbox and preach, but I deeply felt like I knew the way spiritually, and it pained me that others were so misguided. Since then I have changed the way I feel about people and truly know they are where they need to be, and where they are has nothing to do with where I am. The desire to bring people to where I am has left and along with it, a heavy weight.

You are the one that takes yourself there. This is why we Astral Project. On some level it has been decided that we are ready to see and experience more than just this "physical realm". That we are ready to see "outside the box". That's what a shift in consciousness entails.

And the main purpose I'm here is to learn how to project, not because it is going to make me a better person, or give me a one up on everyone else, or bring me closer to the source, but because it's exciting and I want to feel good!
Perhaps "it has been decided" that I'm ready to explore outside the physical but I'm not aware of that. I don't feel special.

[Lumaza]

And the main purpose I'm here is to learn how to project, not because it is going to make me a better person, or give me a one up on everyone else, or bring me closer to the source, but because it's exciting and I want to feel good!
Perhaps "it has been decided" that I'm ready to explore outside the physical but I'm not aware of that. I don't feel special.

This isn't about "one upping anyone" If anything it actually teaches you how to control and tame your ego. There is no feeling special involve here. Like I said it's like learning anything else in life. Does a Guitarist feel special, do they feel they are better then everyone else? No they put in the effort, intent and focus to learn and now they and can play. Non ordinary states of consciousness are the same way. But what you learn will definitely change your mindset and view on what is and what isn't. It opens you up to a new way of thinking and that's why I believe that not everyone is ready to experience this at this moment in their current reality. It could change many things, your relationships with people in general, your occupation, all kinds of things. I and many others have seen this first hand.

[Xanth]

Of course. I never was the type to stand on a soapbox and preach, but I deeply felt like I knew the way spiritually, and it pained me that others were so misguided. Since then I have changed the way I feel about people and truly know they are where they need to be, and where they are has nothing to do with where I am. The desire to bring people to where I am has left and along with it, a heavy weight.

So now, instead of preaching directly TO people... you do it passive aggressively. 
You do realize that the only thing you've changed is HOW you preach to people, right?

As for myself... I post what I post simply to help anyone who wants to learn.  However, when I feel someone is just jerking me around, that interaction stops.  I have little time to waste satiating someone's ego. 

Ultimately, what I post is nothing but an opinion.  I'm but one voice in a crowd.  I'm a loud voice, for certain... but it's not loud because I think I'm right and everyone else is wrong.  It's loud because I speak with confidence and conviction in my experiences and perspective.  Because of that, nobody on this forum can claim to be more or less "spiritual" than anyone else.  It's a meaningless concept anyway.

One BIG thing I try to make sure as the administrator of this forum is that there are a wide variety of people sharing a wide variety of perspectives... because mine, obviously, isn't the only one.

I hope we can move past this pretense now and onto more meaningful things... such as teaching you to project. 

[Bluebird]

So now, instead of preaching directly TO people... you do it passive aggressively.  

Lol, not what I'm trying to do!
I'm going to take your advice and focus on projection.

I'm new here and it just takes a second to figure out whats acceptable to discuss. Or rather what most peoples views are. I'm certainly not trying to jerk you around.

Another strange thing to consider: I've been reading this forum and your website for quite a while so I guess I feel like I know you and we are pals but I have to remember you don't know me! I promise I'm a peaceful person and have no other motives than to participate and learn.

Moving on!  

[Xanth]

It's all good.  I'm still talking, aren't I? 

I hope to get to know you as you've gotten to know me. 

[astralm]

@Xanth

Just because my conclusions are different than yours does not make them wrong.  But thank you for spitting in the face of my opinions, very nice of you.

[Xanth]

@Xanth

Just because my conclusions are different than yours does not make them wrong.  But thank you for spitting in the face of my opinions, very nice of you.

Whoa there tiger.

You posted what I viewed as some major misconceptions regarding Tom Campbell and his work... I attempted to clear them up for you. 

I'm not exactly clear where the "spitting" part comes in...

[Ricochet]

I came across this article today. I'd be interested to know if you feel it is saying much the same things as TC does, and based on your experiences, whether its on the money or not.

https://www.scimednet.org/content/quantum-shift-where-we-seem-be-now-life-after-death