what exists without consciousness?

[bjb1234]

Well after giving it more thought i think:

We do have a soul, im not sure what this soul is...  Maybe life force.  Science has no idea really how life came from non life.

We are of course at some level all from the same source, the same substance, so its plausable that we could all be linked.

Our mind generates our reality...  Our eyes and ears take in data and our mind interprets it and somehow gives us what appears to be our physical reality.

I do believe we live on after death and reincarnation to be the most likely process. 

Our current brain / mind seems to be like RAM memory on a computer, just temporary... maybe we have a way where we can "raise our consciousness" and get access to the hard drive of the universe and select our next physical experience.


At the end of the day it does not really matter,  i think for now as humans we need to realize what ever the reality of well reality...  we are lucky to be here and we all come from the same source.  We need to get our systems in check, sort our physical world out, and when we have sorted it out maybe then focus more time on discovering other things. 

I dont think physical science will ever truely solve some of the mysteries to do with the mind, as what ever school of thought you come from...  its mostly guess work and assumptions.  So just be happy and help make the world a better place for the next generations (after-all if reincarnation is true, you will in some way feel the consequences of todays actions).

Peace

[SikWilly]

All there is is One.  It reflects upon itself, immediately creating for itself the illusion of another. A relationship is born which immediately creates experience.  This experience becomes a catalyst for more relationships, creating more illusions, and creation becomes the tool upon which the One experiences itself through the use of the illusion of separate others and the relationship between these others.  This "reflecting upon itself through the experience of relationships with others" is consciousness.  It is what collapses the quantum wave.  It is the process that brings the manifest into an "illusionary" existence. 

When we talk about the reality of the material world, and how it is an illusion, well... it is an illusion, it all is.  The thing is, everything is an illusion.  Your dreams, your thoughts, your reality, your life, your experiences, your doubts, your joy, your car, your beliefs, your religion, your soul, your god, your lies, everything, for they are all reflections of the One, and these reflections are all dreams in the mind of the One.

What exists without consciousness?  There is no "existing" without it.  It is the medium through which the One is expressed in ALL its forms.

SikWilly

[Synergy]

I am not quite sure how you would label my beliefs... and sorry for the long post but I hope it will make some people think edit: Actually, I believe I fall nicely into idealistic Monism...

-The Universe IS consciousness.... the 'big dream' if you will.  The Universe was created by the 'I AM' (God) through contemplation (Thought)
-As Above, So Below - our consciousness and existence are in the 'image' or thought of the creator, based on the experiences of the creator, and we in turn create our own experiences and our own dreams... the 'little dream within the big dream'
-All energy, matter and thought within our universe is derived from the Prima Materia which is pure consciousness of the ONE
-Our separateness is an illusion, time and space are illusions.  Consciousness is all that is. 

(You might have recognized that the above follows very closely to how creation is explained in the Emerald Tablet... and you know where my faith / beliefs lie.  I am a Rosicrucian with a vested interest in spiritual alchemy)

The best way I can visualize the universe paradox (ever expanding, but what lies beyond? Nothing? but what does it expand into then? there must be something beyond it?) is this way:

Close your eyes and visualize a world... it can be any way you want it to be.  You have just created your own Universe by contemplation.  You are the 'I AM'

Now imagine some characters within it... they are all created from your thoughts, the trees, the sky, the ground, the oceans... the stars etc.  You have created them all within your mind. They have no physical substance in our current definition of the word, but if you dream of this world when you sleep, everything will feel very real to you and all of your created characters.  These characters even seem to take on consciousness of their own, as in you are not directly controlling their every move, though you can interact with them in a dream etc.  Also, from inside your created thought world... you could travel infinitely, and not run out of space... but your universe can expand (you can always add new ideas to it) - what's it expanding into? So it can be both infinite and have a 'beyond' (you and this physical world being the beyond) - the paradox?? (a very important revelation for me!)

There is also no concept of 'time' as we understand it.  You can recall your world at any time, at any period in your world's history, you can even imagine events that would take centuries to accomplish... in the blink of an eye, to you anyway. There is no linear time with thought. It is only apparent from inside of it.

So in this world in your mind, there IS time and space as perceived from within that world (ie: to  character within your mind world, or when you immerse yourself in it by dreams etc) but to look at it from beyond... describing the memory of your thoughts... it has no space, no time, no substance... they are an illusion. Yet this diverse world still exists!

How can you describe what a thought actually IS?  What is consciousness? "I AM" is ALL THAT EXISTS! It doesn't exist 'within' anything... it is simply all there is! 

In the case of your own imaginary world, you are the "I AM".... or are you really?  Looking at the larger picture, you are also in the mind of the creator, you are completely created out of thought... that's why matter and time and space etc are all illusions to us. 

There is a reason that why we feel more awake and aware of reality during a lucid dream, than even during wakeful consciousness.  Both sleep dreaming, and full wakefulness, are states of consciousness where we are oblivious that there is anything else.  (if you were in a dream and never woke up, and there was nothing inside that dream to indicate to you that you were dreaming... would you ever know?  Would you just keep going on about your life in that dream world?) In a lucid dream (or even OBEs) we have awakened from our illusions, and become more aware of the 'big dream'

Our universe can expand (gained knowledge) and yet it's not expanding into any physical space... there is no space beyond it, yet there is also no 'nothing' beyond it either.....yet there IS a beyond. The beyond is THE ONE, it's God!  The 'I AM', which we are all a part of!

--

So in conclusion, to answer the OP's question about whether the universe could exist without consciousness? The answer is no... because the Universe IS consciousness!! 

[catmeow]

Synergy, that's very similar to how I see it.  The only thing which exists is consciousness, and the world we live in is just a "dream" effectively.  This simple fact, as you say, explains the paradox of "what is space" and "where is space".  Space doesn't actually exist, it's just a figment if our imagination.  The paradox is solved.  Forget worrying about the mystery of what lies beyond the universe. It doesn't matter because there is no universe.

[Stookie]

While I haven't figured it all out (I'm trying to though), my current method of looking at it is: it's not that the universe doesn't exist, it just doesn't exist in the way we perceive it to exist. Things are real, just not the way we think them to be.

This way I don't feel like the universe is a huge, cruel practical joke being played on me. I'm gonna be really upset if it is...

[Philip]

Assuming that universe is consciousness and that consciousness is universe; where does physical life fit into all this?

Is the focus of consciousness into our vehicle of expression (our body) in the physical just a means to facilitate/make possible the human evolution of consciousness?

Or is this question too complicated and the answer (which seems a little blasé) just that EVERYTHING is a consequence of the sole consciousness notion of "I AM"?

[CFTraveler]

While I haven't figured it all out (I'm trying to though), my current method of looking at it is: it's not that the universe doesn't exist, it just doesn't exist in the way we perceive it to exist. Things are real, just not the way we think them to be.

This way I don't feel like the universe is a huge, cruel practical joke being played on me. I'm gonna be really upset if it is...

The way I see it is that the universe is not how we think it is- the old 'illusion' vs. 'nonexistence' conundrum.  An illusion is not what it seems, it's just something more than what it seems.
So it's not that it's not, it's that it's more.
If it's not, I'll be pretty upset too.   

[catmeow]

Is the focus of consciousness into our vehicle of expression (our body) in the physical just a means to facilitate/make possible the human evolution of consciousness

I believe we are all connected together, and we are all effectively "one".  "Physical existence" brings down shutters between us all so that we each of us live in a little cell of our own and are unaware of the connectedness of everything. This is necessary for us to experience things which we couldn't otherwise experience, like jealousy, admiration, hurt, love, loss etc. If we all knew exactly what each other was thinking, ie if the cell walls were "lifted", then this learning and enrichening would be impossible.

As for the "reality" of the universe, well it's quite "real"!  Just because it (might be) all in "our minds" so to speak, doesn't mean it's not "real".  Illusory is NOT the same thing as "not real"!

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

Shakespeare said:

All the world's a stage,
And all the men and women merely players:
They have their exits and their entrances;
And one man in his time plays many parts,
His acts being seven ages.

And he was spot on.  I believe we are all consciousnesses using physicality for the purpose of evolution. Our main goal is to "wake up" and discover our real sevles.  The advantage of this system is that we learn about ourselves little by little (through every emotion, incarnation etc).  The downside is that the physical world can be so enticing that we forget our main purpose and immerse ourselves into all things physical.

In a way, as Shakespeare said, it is a play we come here to act out.  Sometimes when things get rough, I tell myself this is a f***ing illusion anyway, why should I care so much! That's my confession. lol

[Philip]

I believe we are all consciousnesses using physicality for the purpose of evolution.

I think that makes sense.

Though whether we are all one consciousness of multiple consciousnesses; or whether we interact with the energy making up universe or if consciousness and energy/universe are equal I can't make out.

[Aquarious]

If the Universe is just an illusion...

Then everybodys answer is correct. Every possible imagined scenario exsists.

I'm not comfortable with this notion as morality changes from each individual. i.e. My idea of heaven would be different to that of a Peadophile, Rapist or Nazi.

If we all create our own universe, then the theory of enlightnement (which is a universal concept) should be debunked as there would be no yardstick to measure when an individual reaches it. Because it would be different for everone. And that difference would include a subjective view on morality at somepoint. A viewpoint wouldn't be subjective if it is constrained by what Enlightenment considers moral or immoral.

I'd like to think that our thoughts are illusions but our actions are real. Actions are inspired by the illusion of thought but that doesn't make the thought real. The universe is a very real place constrained by the laws of physics. The structure of the universe can't be manipulated by thoought alone.     

[Stookie]

I'd like to think that our thoughts are illusions but our actions are real. Actions are inspired by the illusion of thought but that doesn't make the thought real. The universe is a very real place constrained by the laws of physics. The structure of the universe can't be manipulated by thoought alone.    

If consciousness is all that really exists, then "thinking" is the action, and the percepts and concepts the thoughts are linking would be illusory. The act of thinking may be the only "real" thing about us, used to create an illusory universe.

Perhaps that's where the idea of eastern philosophical "non-thinking" came from. It's just a method to stop thoughts from linking percepts and concepts that create the illusion, and then be able to experience the pure "action" of consciousness before it creates illusion.

[Aquarious]

So 'the pure action' of consciousness would be an act of stopping thoughts?

Thinking isn't always an action. We can actively think of something but even when we aren't active, thoughts will continue to be present.

As long as the nuerons are firing, every human is accompanied by thoughts throughout their life. Only when we die and our brains stop the magic sparks is when we experience nothingness. But then we wont and know anything about it.

If we have no thoughts then we don't have an experience.

 

[Synergy]

Only when we die and our brains stop the magic sparks is when we experience nothingness. But then we wont and know anything about it.

I don't believe that we ever experience 'nothingness'.  Even when in dreamless sleep, we seem to experience the passing of time (though not to the degree of waking consciousness) and people have experienced consciousness while out of body during surgery, under general anesthetic, where the anesthetic is known to suppress REM sleep.  Near Death Experiences also come to mind as an example where the neurons have stopped firing - in fact, the entire part of the brain responsible for memory is shut down during clinical death, so in theory these people should have no recollection of the NDE at all! - but they do!  So where are the thoughts coming from?  It can't be all 'neurons just firing'.

Besides, quantum physics is starting to point more and more to the fact that consciousness exists outside of the physical body.  Watch the movie 'What the Bleep do we know?!' or try these free vids on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vN686OUAJM&feature=related (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ko4ehMxt17M&feature=related (part 2)

[Venus_Goddess_of_Love]

Stooky I agree with you totally.

Aquarius - I'd like to add to what Stooky said.  You know already that every action begins with a thought.  Specifically, Thought + Emotion = Action.  Some thoughts never get actioned on because there just isn't enough emotion invested in them. 

Incidentally I am reading R Monroe's book The Ultimate Journey.  He describes an area in the astral plane where there is a collection of unmanifested human thoughts.  I find this fascinating.  I also read an article sometime ago which describes somebody's OBE to such a place where he saw his own thoughts in formation.

This tells me that:
1. be careful what you think because "every thought is a prayer"
2. thoughts are real - to manifest them, we need to be passionate enough about them
3. by their nature, thoughts travel like radio waves.  This means we are constantly in contact other people's thoughts. What this means is that you could easily have other people's thoughts in your mind, and others could have yours.  What happens if it's a half-formed thought in the astral plane?  Is it possible to action on it?  Is this how evolution of a species occurs, i.e. communication though thought without even being consciously aware of it (meme)?  If we knew how it works, would we send positive thoughts all the time?

Sorry going off topic now. 

[catmeow]

Good videos Synergy.... I agree with what you say.  NDE's indicate, even prove, that human consciousness can exist with a completely flat EEG and zero blood flow through the brain.  There are many cases.  This is the clinical definition of brain death and yet people report seeing exactly what surgeons were doing whilst they were clinically dead.   Science simply has no answer for this.

If we all create our own universe, then the theory of enlightnement (which is a universal concept) should be debunked as there would be no yardstick to measure when an individual reaches it. Because it would be different for everone.

Not really (as i see it).  We all together create the same universe. The way i see it is that we all co-operate at an unconscious (or super-conscious) level and create a virtual universe with a virtual set of physical laws.  This creation (which is our own creation) allows us all to experience a physical life, together with all of its rewards and pitfalls.  We are unaware of our connectedness in this world. So this gives rise to selfish behaviour, and also selfless behaviour. We age, learn, hurt, enjoy, act, react, love, hate, kill and care in this world and learn from our experiences in it.

This physical universe is just one of many which we have created for ourselves, so the astral would be another, governed by different laws.

There is no incompatibility between this theory and your own ideas of morality, Aquarious, as I see it.  However, i will say again, it is just a theory, though it makes sense to me.

The universe is a very real place constrained by the laws of physics.

Yup.  But we have created the physical laws, though we don't realise it.

The structure of the universe can't be manipulated by thoought alone.     

Well according to quantum mechanics this statement isn't true, and I'll repost this dinky video, which shows that when we observe something we change the way it behaves:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfPeprQ7oGc

[Aquarious]

Ah Yes, I have the DVD of 'What the Bleep..' Its an interesting format, the way its presented and has that 'feel good' factor with it. There is a lot of theory and philosophy there but I was disappointed to find out that three of the directors belong to 'Ramtha's School of Enlightenment'. Ramtha is the entity that supposidly channels through JZ Knight who features heavily in the film. She is a channeller of some kind of warrior from Atlantis thousands of years ago . JZ Knight is CEO of Ramtha' School of Enlightenment'. So its easy to see how the final edited verion can be manipulated to satisfy the directors. I aslo remember that one of the Scientists said the film shaped his quotes completely out of context.

NDE's are anecdotel. Nuerons fire upon wakening and people can only report what feels like a memory once they're awake. Theres no way of telling if the memory is of a real experience or of if the brain just created it upon wakening. As for the validity of NDE's, They are extremely rare considering the amount of people that come close to death around the world every day. There are only a few unexplainable events compared to the amount of people that nearly die.

Catmeow: Thanks for the little snippet also from 'what the bleep'. But Observing is an act. Not a thought.
 

[catmeow]

Catmeow: Thanks for the little snippet also from 'what the bleep'. But Observing is an act. Not a thought

Busted! Yes you're quite correct of course, but still it's interesting that observing should have an action on our "physical" world.

I didn't realise my clip was from "what the bleep".  Your critique is interesting.

What's anecdotal?  Everything is anecdotal. NDE's are no more anecdotal then the work, say, of Olaf Blanke, a so-called "scientist" who attempts to debunk OBE's, by reporting one or two cases which HE SAYS happened in his lab.  Unreproduced, unverified, not peer-reviewed, tiny sample, abnormal (epileptic) subjects.  And he is taken seriously, but all of those thousands of NDE'rs aren't!

Also when NDEs are verified and attested by doctors and nurses they are no longer anecdotal. I could dig up cases where the experients described things such as conversations and procedures which took place whilst they exhibited a zero EEG. This blows that well-trodden theory that these are just memories created on awakening out of the water.  I think there are a few in the book Mindsight by Kenneth Ring.

"There are only a few unexplainable events compared to the amount of people that nearly die."  Absolutely. We only need a few.  We only need one "white crow" to disprove the theory that "all crows are black".

I don't accept the "anecdotal" thing I'm afraid. I believe sincerely that it is just a cop out by scientists trying to ignore something they cannot explain.

"Whatever the humblest men affirm from their own experience is always worth listening to, but what even the cleverest of men, in their ignorance, deny, is never worth a moment's attention" - Sir William Barrett

[Synergy]

I have to agree with Catmeow... and there is another experiment I can think of off hand where thought is shown to DIRECTLY affect the physical, and can be reproduced by anyone, anywhere, at any time.

The water experiments of Masaru Emoto. He has shown that thought, both negative and positive can affect water crystals as the water freezes.  Negative thoughts towards a particular 'sample' caused disorganized crystals, while positive thoughts of love etc caused beautiful structures in the crystals. 

Link:
http://www.life-enthusiast.com/twilight/research_emoto.htm

[Aquarious]

I didn't realise my clip was from "what the bleep". 

Thats where we all have to be careful about where we get our beliefs from. Im not saying that the particular clip was right or wrong but its a cartoon! and there are a lot more unanswered observations in Quantum Physics than conclusions. From what I've gathered, Scientists are not even close to understanding Quantum Mechanics. So for us Laymans to look at one piece of data and apply it to basically 'the theory of everything' is nuts. (But I do it to so Im also in the Nuts brigade  )

In general, people are mislead quite easily without questioning the validity of information.  Salesmen thrive off the lack of questioning people ask when pitching a product. Mystics are paid handsomly for preying on the vulnerable. Governments will go to a war with a media friendly reason and people out there believe it. Its how cults are formed. On a deeper note, a lot of people wouldn't dare question the validity of the Bible or the Quran but they believe away.  

Synergy... Yet another example you give from 'What the bleep..' Do you go to Rathma's School of Enlightenment?  The problem with Masaru Emoto's experiments are that they are not always consistent e.g. there are water crystals that have negative prayers where the shape looks subjectively beautiful and vice versa. They are very selective with what they present.

Im not saying its wrong to have beliefs but I sometimes wish a lot more people would ask 'Why' they believe.

[catmeow]

Good points, we have to be careful, but my clip represents our current understanding of Quantum Mechanics accurately to the best of my knowledge.  There's the difference.  The clip is accurate.  The fact that it's a cartoon is irrelevant btw.

NDE's are anecdotel. Nuerons fire upon wakening and people can only report what feels like a memory once they're awake. Theres no way of telling if the memory is of a real experience or of if the brain just created it upon wakening

This is true of all of our memories, not just NDEs. Maybe your memories of everything which happened yesterday were just created when you woke up. Why single out NDEs for this critique?  Well I know why, it's because they contradict mainstream science.

Well the fact that a person's experiences contradict physical science is not a reason to discount them out of hand.  It's a reason to scrutinize them very carefully!

[Aquarious]

Yes but the difference between what I remember yesterday is that I can produce evidence of what happened or what I did. Lack of evidence widens the scope for the possibility of an illusion or a mind trick. Its how a court of law works.

I'll be honest, I don't how much proof there is on NDE's. But I do know there's a lot of anecdotal cases are around kind of similar to UFO stories.

And what can you do about Anecdotes? Believe or not believe I suppose.   

[Synergy]

Yes but the difference between what I remember yesterday is that I can produce evidence of what happened or what I did. Lack of evidence widens the scope for the possibility of an illusion or a mind trick. Its how a court of law works.

I'll be honest, I don't how much proof there is on NDE's. But I do know there's a lot of anecdotal cases are around kind of similar to UFO stories.

And what can you do about Anecdotes? Believe or not believe I suppose.   

Actually there are cases where the details were verifiable with NDEs.  I remember one story that the neurosurgeon corroborated the details.  She had described an instrument exactly that he had used, and this instrument was not a usual surgical instrument that the general public would know how it looked.  The surgeon said he was blown away by the details she recalled from the surgery... it made him a believer.  I wish I could find the link again...

Anyway there are many more cases of NDEs and OBEs that have more than anecdotal evidence.  In the case of OBEs, the Dutch experiments, and Tart's experiments proved that something has to be going on (more than just dreams or hallucinations etc) because the control groups verified placards that were placed away from their physical bodies.  In the case of the Dutch experiments, they were measuring body weight and found that it decreased by a certain amount EVERY time a verifiable OBE occurred. In Tart's case, EEG readings were taken that showed that although OBEs can occur in REM, not all of them did.  In fact there was no measurable discreet state at all... suggesting that the brain might not have much to do with OBEs in the end.... Another experiment was with an psychic and a guy from the US named Alex Tannous, where a person in OBE projected to the location of the psychic, and he was described (down to clothing details exactly) from quite a distance away by the psychic. 

As for th double slit experiment, yes it was in What the bleep.... but it IS a valid experiment.  It's not some fluffery created by the movie. 

[catmeow]

Hi Aquarious.

What Synergy said. (!)  By and large NDEs which occur in hospital theatres, typically contain detailed verifiable information of what took place during the surgery.  So these memories are entirely consistent with the memories of everyone else in the operating theatre, and therefore should have the same status as my memories of what happened yesterday.

NDE memories include details of the surgical equipment used, the people present, what they were wearing, what was said and even details about people in adjoining corridors.  In this respect NDE evidence is superior in general to OBE evidence which tends to contain more fantasy constructs. NDE evidence, when it's present, is usually spot on.  This is a matter of some interest to me, because I think that people who OBE are not fully "out of the body" whereas people who NDE are, and that is why their observations are more accurate.

Why we should therefore treat NDE memories as somehow "fake" or created suddenly at the moment of waking up, when they actually contain all of those elements of consistency and continuity with other living individuals, which we associate with "real" memories, I do not know. Well yes I do, as I said it's a sad cop out by those who are unwilling to consider the unconsiderable.

btw - sorry if this feels a bit like a "pincer" movement by myself and Synergy... but... well..  tough!!!!

[jub jub]

So this is where the philosophers hang out. 

I've enjoyed reading the different takes on who and what we are, but personally, it made my head hurt. I really don't know where I stand on this matter.

Since you all were talking about NDEs an corroborating evidence, I would like to share some information that actually happened to me and made me think twice about life after death.

I had a 19 year old daughter who was killed in a car accident. On the second day of her death, she appeared to us by taking over her son's spirit who was staying with us at the time. How do I know this you ask? She made her spirit manifest to me, my wife and my youngest daughter (at separate times I might add) by morphing her face on to the face of my grandson who was two at the time. I could tell without a doubt that my daughter was reaching out from beyond the grave. She stared intently into my eyes for about 30 seconds, without a word and then the face of my grandson returned and he would go back to doing whatever it was he was doing. Pretty freaky eh? I know it gave me goose bumps and when I told my wife what had happened she said that she saw the same thing but thought I wouldn't believe it if she told me.

Whatever view you take on who or what we are doesn't really matter, it is fun to think about though and gives way to great discussions like are in this thread. In the end, every notion that we conceived as humans will probably be wrong and we'll just smack ourselves in the head with our hand and say to ourselves, "I didn't realize!"

Maybe the universe is just what it is, a physical place and then maybe it's one big hologram!