Why So Difficult to Scientifically Prove

[blade5x]

If we have this so called "Etheric Body" which is made up energy, why is so hard to prove something like an OBE when all you would have to do is detect energy levels dropping in the human body during an OBE, or actually detecting energy leave the body?

I think they are real, but I am beginning to question myself on how exactly these work.

[MisterJingo]

I've been asking these questions for years, but have no answers yet  .
People usually tell me it's impossible to scientifically verify, yet, if the ethric/astral body exist, they quite easily interact with physical matter (body and brain), so you would have thought it would be detectable to a degree.
My current view is that the ethric/astral (and other subtle bodies/energy systems) are belief systems. Such as repeated tactile visualisation of movement evoking the 'memory' of tactile sensation, this is interpreted as energy movement, and is reinforced over time. Another example is that I currently believe chakras are created through visualisation and abstract associations are made between the physical, psyche and this new 'structure' i.e. we don't have inherent energy systems (meridian point and chakras very closely match nerve placement and the endocrine system), but we can build them through belief and use them as a tool.
Where am I going with this? I believe there are no 'external' energy movements or effects by which to detect OBE (I think it's an internal phenomenon – this doesn't detract from it as even our interaction with 'external reality' is really internal) and our best hope would be to indirectly gain evidence of the OBE phenomenon. But to do this, we need people who can consistently exit on will, which seems a near impossibility in itself .

[kiwibonga]

Robert Bruce said he intends to "prove it" in 2007 with the help of scientists, I believe... I have high expectations for that

[Grigori]

What makes you think this "energy" is detectable by modern equipment? Also is this "energy" a constant? If it fluctuates normally then how would you know what a change means. Then Finally assume there is a change in energy (whatever kind it may be) how would this prove OOBEs?

Personally I think OOBEs are like most psi phenomena and you need to experience it to believe it.

[MisterJingo]

What makes you think this "energy" is detectable by modern equipment? Also is this "energy" a constant? If it fluctuates normally then how would you know what a change means.

If this energy exists, and if this energy has the properties attributed to it by advocates of the subtle body philosophies, it should be detectable. It's an energy which completely permeates the physical body; it has places where it is so noticeable that sticking a needle into that point creates effects on the physical (acupuncture). So either physical instruments can interact with it (the needle) or acupuncture has it's mechanics in physical means rather than in the energy body.
Also, this energy cannot be subtle since it can completely dominate the physical form allowing complete control and interaction on every level with the body and brain. This shows it's not like some of the most subtle particles we know in physics which barely interact with matter, this ethric stuff seems to fully permeate matter and interact with it completely. I'm quite shocked we haven't discovered it already, especially as many projectors state electricity interacts with their ethric body in interesting ways.

Then Finally assume there is a change in energy (whatever kind it may be) how would this prove OOBEs?

If an energy can be detected leaving the body, moving around in external reality in a seemingly conscious manner (such as moving to set points, doing certain actions), and then returning to the body – I'm sure this would be noticed by the scientific community. And I for one would see it as a kind of proof.
But I have a feeling such energy will never be found as its part of the creative visualisation (astral), and has no physical reality. But I would be more than happy to be proven wrong and have to change this viewpoint .

Personally I think OOBEs are like most psi phenomena and you need to experience it to believe it.

But even experiencing various paranormal/psi phenomenon does not prove its validity. I hate to say this, but many people take very natural and normal phenomenon to be paranormal simply because they can't see the natural mechanics behind it, or how it could have its roots in the reality we know. Too many people believe philosophies and ideologies far to easily based upon a personnel perception and no real thought behind how else it could have occurred.

[MisterJingo]

Robert Bruce said he intends to "prove it" in 2007 with the help of scientists, I believe... I have high expectations for that

Has Robert indicated how he's going to do this? I look forward to it anyway .

[mactombs]

I doubt it's impossible to prove in the same way it's impossible to prove that I dreamed about being in Diablo 2 last night.

If the etheric is real, then yes, it seems there should be some sort of experiment to prove its existence. If any of it is real, you'd hope that there would be some way of proving it scientifically. Either science hasn't progressed enough, APing hasn't progressed enough, or it simply isn't real.

[jub jub]

It seems it would be like proving the existence of alternate dimensions! Probably not going to happen any time soon.

[maverick7h]

Not going to happen anytime soon because if the scientific community were to "discover" something like this, the implications would be huge. Life after death would be proven a certainty and people would be forced to see the failures of dogmatic religion. The world just isn't ready for it yet.

You could always lay a card somewhere without ever looking at it, then project to look at the card, then check it once you wake back up. I guess that's still not 100% proof, but its a good 95% lol. Lots of people have done it.

You also have to consider people who have never read ANYTHING about the subject describe identical experiences during the process of an OBE, which greatly decreases the likelyhood that its nothing but a conditioned internal hallucination based on something we've already read. There is some variance between individuals, like a reaction to anything else, but its remarkably consistant.

[MisterJingo]

Not going to happen anytime soon because if the scientific community were to "discover" something like this, the implications would be huge. Life after death would be proven a certainty and people would be forced to see the failures of dogmatic religion. The world just isn't ready for it yet.

I don't think science would hold back to save the belief of religious people. Quite the opposite, I believe science will continue to research where it wishes regardless of potential consequences. A prime example of this is the discovery of splitting the atom last century.

You could always lay a card somewhere without ever looking at it, then project to look at the card, then check it once you wake back up. I guess that's still not 100% proof, but its a good 95% lol. Lots of people have done it.

The card experiment is hard to gain any sort of validity from due to the card either being read wrongly, not being clear, not being there or actually turning into another object. If someone could consistently read a card correctly, that would show 'something' I guess. But the bigger stumbling block is the difficulty in projecting at will.

You also have to consider people who have never read ANYTHING about the subject describe identical experiences during the process of an OBE, which greatly decreases the likelyhood that its nothing but a conditioned internal hallucination based on something we've already read. There is some variance between individuals, like a reaction to anything else, but its remarkably consistant.

On the surface it might seem to decrease it, but we cannot ignore that our world is interpreted and experienced filtered through a brain. Shared experiences might actually be produced by the same areas of the brain in each of us. This could explain why the experiences in general are similar, yet there are unique differences to each of us i.e. personal experience and belief systems change our interpretation of certain brain created experiences, and because we share the same brain, we share the same experience structure.
I'm not saying this is true, just that for every example of why OBEs might be more than hallucination, there is an equally compelling reason why they are not. This is why some form of validation would be great. It might answer such questions indirectly.

[Nostic]

We have a tendency to think that the scientific community operates with our best interest at heart. I don't necessarily believe this to be the case. That's not to say that good people aren't a part of that community, but I can't imagine that they have ultimate say as to what information is released to the public. So, you really can't assume anything. It wouldn't surprise me in the least to learn that many scientific discoveries have been made that we know nothing (or very little) about. There are many people in power who would like to keep the sheep just as they are- mindless and dependent.
There is no question in my mind that the OBE can be proven. It may be difficult I suppose, but certainly not impossible.

[jub jub]

Not going to happen anytime soon because if the scientific community were to "discover" something like this, the implications would be huge. Life after death would be proven a certainty and people would be forced to see the failures of dogmatic religion. The world just isn't ready for it yet.

Religious people and a good percentage of non-religious people already believe in life after death. The difficult part would be to prove or disprove where exactly our soul goes upon death.

According to Western religious dogma, there are two choices. If we could disprove the existence of "Hell" then I could see where the world religions wouldn't have a purpose anymore and therefore they would cease to exist. What would happen to humanity at that point?

Hmmm...maybe religion is not such a bad thing after all!

[mactombs]

According to Western religious dogma, there are two choices. If we could disprove the existence of "Hell" then I could see where the world religions wouldn't have a purpose anymore and therefore they would cease to exist. What would happen to humanity at that point?

Humanity doesn't behave just because of threat of eternal damnation. I certainly don't. I think religion has a greater tendency to destructive behavior than to positive. A lot of people give up personal responsibility - the devil made me do it, but it doesn't matter anyway, because Jesus will make up for it.

I'm personally offended by the idea of Christianity (and Superman), that mankind will never be good enough without divine intervention. It's co-dependency at it's worst. Everyone must pay for their own "sins" - I prefer to take responsibility for my own actions. It makes my life a whole lot more meaningful.

On the other hand, this isn't to say there aren't Christians I don't admire, or that I feel have a destructive or demeaning view on spirituality - I mean generally, the mindless faith saves no souls.

[jilola]

Talbot mentions detection of high frequency energies centered onn the traditional chakra locations in Holographic Universe.
The energy was at a frequency a couple of orders of magnitude higher than the usual EEG frequencies.

One of the reason why the etheric body has not been scientifically detected is probably that scientist don't know what to look for. Another might be that the signal is unwittingly filtered out as noise. Or perhaps there is nothing to detect?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[jub jub]

Talbot mentions detection of high frequency energies centered onn the traditional chakra locations in Holographic Universe.
The energy was at a frequency a couple of orders of magnitude higher than the usual EEG frequencies.

One of the reason why the etheric body has not been scientifically detected is probably that scientist don't know what to look for. Another might be that the signal is unwittingly filtered out as noise. Or perhaps there is nothing to detect?

2cents & L&L
Jouni

In electronics, whenever a potential measurement is made, the measuring device needs to referenced to to a source. In most cases this is ground, or earth as some call it.

Now, let's say that in order to measure the vibrational frequency that we are currently in, we would have to use a reference that we don't have access to, such as another dimension. A dimensional ground if you will. Where would we find it and how would we access it?

I've often wondered about our vibrational field and how we could measure it or look at it without a reference point. If we could figure it out then maybe we could look at other dimensions as well. It wouldn't be no different than looking at different frequencies using a spectrum analyzer.

Just trying to think outside the box.

[WindGod]

-edit- srry for going off topic. Scientific proof? high energy physics is making great progress IMHO-

Religious people and a good percentage of non-religious people already believe in life after death. The difficult part would be to prove or disprove where exactly our soul goes upon death.

According to Western religious dogma, there are two choices. If we could disprove the existence of "Hell" then I could see where the world religions wouldn't have a purpose anymore and therefore they would cease to exist. What would happen to humanity at that point?

Hmmm...maybe religion is not such a bad thing after all!

The existence of Hell? What about all the religions throughout history that have endeavored to create Hell on Earth? (referring to religions, not spirituality)
the crusades; the inquisition; the church graciously "forgives" Galileo after 500 years; endless persecution and exploitation of ignorance greed and negative emotion. Great thinkers and scientist simply trying to explain that the earth obits the sun were subjected to the worst abuse.

the only thing that keeps "religion" in check is government. Government forces the church in retreat to concentrating on good works of charity and that's were religion needs to stay.

I sincerely believe that if there is such a thing as the anti-Christ or satan or some powerful sadistic powerful being that chooses to incarnate on Earth, that it will surely become in charge of the most popular religion to influence the followers to create Hell on Earth.
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i'm not really a windgod, just like to eat beans and love to sail

[jub jub]

-edit- srry for going off topic. Scientific proof? high energy physics is making great progress IMHO-

Religious people and a good percentage of non-religious people already believe in life after death. The difficult part would be to prove or disprove where exactly our soul goes upon death.

According to Western religious dogma, there are two choices. If we could disprove the existence of "Hell" then I could see where the world religions wouldn't have a purpose anymore and therefore they would cease to exist. What would happen to humanity at that point?

Hmmm...maybe religion is not such a bad thing after all!

The existence of Hell? What about all the religions throughout history that have endeavored to create Hell on Earth? (referring to religions, not spirituality)
the crusades; the inquisition; the church graciously "forgives" Galileo after 500 years; endless persecution and exploitation of ignorance greed and negative emotion. Great thinkers and scientist simply trying to explain that the earth obits the sun were subjected to the worst abuse.

the only thing that keeps "religion" in check is government. Government forces the church in retreat to concentrating on good works of charity and that's were religion needs to stay.

I sincerely believe that if there is such a thing as the anti-Christ or satan or some powerful sadistic powerful being that chooses to incarnate on Earth, that it will surely become in charge of the most popular religion to influence the followers to create Hell on Earth.
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i'm not really a windgod, just like to eat beans and love to sail

Hey, you're preaching to the choir!

I'm not advocating anything. All I'm saying is that if people knew there was no such thing as heaven or hell, and that we all went to a nice place when we died, how much differently would we act knowing the Sheriff is out of town?

[WindGod]

Hey, you're preaching to the choir!

I'm not advocating anything. All I'm saying is that if people knew there was no such thing as heaven or hell, and that we all went to a nice place when we died, how much differently would we act knowing the Sheriff is out of town?

Lol, was just watching "Wildest Police Videos", yes I agree.

Seeing the new unmarked police cars in our community pulling over speeders has greatly reduced my traffic infractions.
___________________________________________________________
i'm not really a windgod, i just like to eat beans and love to sail

[mactombs]

Seeing the new unmarked police cars in our community pulling over speeders has greatly reduced my traffic infractions.

Knowing there are consequences for our actions certainly helps us behave better - but this is kind of artificial. We need someone to keep us from speeding with the consequence of a fine/ticket because we can't or won't see the consequence of endangering others by being irresponsible behind a ton of steel.

Maybe Hell is kind of the same way - an artificial, policing idea that serves as a pre-emptive caution for those incapable or unwilling to take responsibility for the longer term reality.

Religion has always struck me as being metaphorical and most people take the great wisdom of the ages and take it literally. If you can't understand it on one level, you go with the level of understanding you're ready for.

I wish I understood better what you posted about vibrational fields, jub jub. Sometimes I wonder about the Occult "veil" and earth's magnetic field, pole reversals, et al.

Suppose the greater awareness - or the ability to transfer the wider reality to our brains - is affected by the earth's magnetic field. It causes static in the transmission. Humanity's natural state is the waking life and the "dreaming" life - only instead of being remembered as hazy dreams, every night is an 7-hour OBE-equivalent.

What if OBEs are just a matter of getting wider-reality information downloaded into our brains, and doing so requires short trips, highly lucid, to have any chance of getting the memory downloaded into the physical because of the static (veil)? Without the veil in place, there's no static, and suddenly everyone is aware.

This is the only thing that has me anticipating 2012 - a real long-shot hoping that maybe it is something special, that maybe all this pole reversal talk and religious talk about the veil being parted has something authentic behind it.

I might be overly-optimistic, but I like the hope that humanity has something truly amazing in its future.

[jub jub]

I wish I understood better what you posted about vibrational fields, jub jub. Sometimes I wonder about the Occult "veil" and earth's magnetic field, pole reversals, et al.

Sheesh...jumping all over the place here!  

I'm under the impression that when we experience an OOBE, the vibrations we feel are actually our consciousness' shifting to another reality/dimension/thought plane/etc.

The reason that we don't feel the vibes all the time is because we are living them, we are them. It's the same as a bird standing on a high tension line. It doesn't get electrocuted because there is no path for current to flow.

When we experience the vibes, there is an astral ground (for lack of a better term) and we experience the phase shifting as our consciousness is shifted to a different frequency. Then our consciousness is no longer on the earth plane but somewhere else! That might help to explain why everything in the RTZ is so out of whack, because the consciousness has to reconstruct it from memory!

When you look at all the evidence, it gives good credence to the idea of a holographic universe!

[WANDERLEI]

Why would it be hard to prove where our souls go after  we die??Did you mean to the world or to ourselves??

[Selski]

That might help to explain why everything in the RTZ is so out of whack, because the consciousness has to reconstruct it from memory!

There's a thought.  I wonder if those with better memory construct a more lifelike RTZ replica and those who are less observant (such as me) end up with anomalies all over the place.  I think I'll start a new thread.  

Sarah

[Astral Projection]

For me, very good "proof" is that every person in the moment of death looses exactly 21 gramm ( I sad this few times on this forum ).

[MisterJingo]

For me, very good "proof" is that every person in the moment of death looses exactly 21 gramm ( I sad this few times on this forum ).

They don't though. The whole premise of the soul weighing 21 grams was borne from experiments by a Dr. Duncan MacDougall in 1907.
He weighed a number of people on death and noted some seemed to lose a certain amount of weight (grams). It would be amazing if everyone lost the same amount of weight, but as far as I know, some actually gained weight, and those that lost it didn't lose the same amount. The experiments were also said to contain a high degree of error.
To date these results of the experiments haven't been reproduced, so this whole idea is based on the minority of results from on experiment a century ago. I'm a bit reluctant to see that as proof of a soul.
I also know he carried out experiments by killing dogs and weighing them too. He supposedly noticed no difference in weight in any of the dog experiments.

This leads us to a few possible conclusions:
1)   The soul might have a weight, but not everyone has a soul (given some didn't lose any weight and some gained weight). Also no dogs have souls.
2)   The soul doesn't necessarily leave the body on death (or even exist) and the weight drop could be accounted for by the sudden rise in temperature on death causing sweat and moisture evaporation (which accounts for the dogs not losing weight, as they don't sweat). Also, a certain volume of air and gas is expelled from the body on death which would take the weight down too. There have been a few arguments against this, but as yet, it still seems plausible.

For me at least, I couldn't in good conscious take this as proof.

[Inward]

The question asked in this thread might seem very complex.

I think first one must ask what's the nature of reality. Some might be surprised how modern science theories have surpassed most religions & philosophies in the weirdness factor. Did you know that most scientists now believe in the MWI, Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Yes, MWI teaches there are infinite realities. Right now you can move your finger left or right or any position. MWI teaches there's a reality for all possibilities. That is, there's a reality where you moved your finger left, there's a reality where you moved your finger right, there's a reality if you sneezed, and on and on. Infinite possibilities.

The point is that perhaps the mystics were correct in that this physical existence is not as we might think. We might even go as far as to accept what they say, which is the universe does not and cannot exist without consciousness. If that is true, then we, all beings sustain this existence. Without "Us" there is nothing. So what is "We?"  Well, as many of you have discovered, we are multi layered beings. Many of you have dabbled with the Etheric and Astral bodies, and perhaps on occasion the lower Mental body. So that's at least 4 bodies including the physical. Just how many more bodies are there? For those very advanced projection explorers, have you noticed a pattern with each body that is higher in vibration? Is it possible that at such a high realm exists the part of you that some may refer to as god, with the little "g." Is it possible that we have what some call the Spirit within? Is it possible that we are all connected on a high level and participate in a sort of Matrix type experience?

If we continue this thought, some question might arise. Such as, does a falling tree make a noise in the middle of the forest? Well, how would this apply in a Matrix type environment? For simplicity lets use computers as the force that sustains the Matrix. So you're connected and inside this virtual reality. You travel to a forest and create a tree, but this tree is kind of weak. You leave the tree and over time it withers and eventually falls. The tree inside this Matrix falls, but you are no where near it and have no idea that it fell. Yet, did the tree fall? Yes, of course, because the Matrix is being sustained by computers. The computers continually simulate all things inside the Matrix. It is called a simulation. It would not be much of a simulation if for example you pick up a ball, then drop the ball, and while the ball is fall you turn your head and suddenly the computers stopped updating the falling ball, so the ball suddenly stops when turn your head. No, that's a poor simulation.

So the same would hold true for our reality as the above computer simulated Matrix. The popular term for this is "Group Consciousness."  If it is true that on some higher level there is force, perhaps what many call our Spirit, and all these spirits are connected, and this web of connections is the Group Consciousness, then this higher force would be responsible for our reality, our simulation if you will. Therefore, when the tree falls in the middle of the forest, it must make a noise for it is a higher force that sustains all things. That higher force is aware of that falling tree regardless if there are no physical beings within the vicinity.

Now, for the final thought. If it's true that what we call reality is created and sustained by this group consciousness, and obviously this group in totality would be highly intelligent, then it could be conceived as our parent in some way. Is it possible for instance that this higher force would allow someone to create and detonate an Antimatter bomb that would destroy this planet? Well, if for some reason that is what the group as a whole wills, then I am certain it will happen. What about proof of the projection of consciousness? Such global proof would cause massive changes in beliefs, etc. Perhaps that's what the group now wills, perhaps not.

Did you know that many researchers would tell you there already is proof of projection? There is an interesting phenomenon where the outcome of certain experiments is dependent upon who is present. Who is aware of this phenomenon? If the negativity/disbelief level reaches a certain level then the experiment will fail. What does this mean? It means that you can have the best out of body projector in the universe and if this projector is trying to prove this existence to a room of scientists and if there are enough disbelievers in the room then the poor projector will fail miserably.

What does all this mean? I believe it means that when the world is ready for hardcore proof then it may happen. Until then, it will not. I believe it means that the best form of proof for now is Personal Proof. Great if you can prove it to the world. I wish Bruce the best!

Consider the idea that to prove the existence of projection of consciousness to yourself is a piece of cake, relatively speaking . To prove such projection to your friend is a little difficult. To prove such projection to a dozen people is a feat of achievement. To prove projection of consciousness to 1000 people is out of this world. To prove it to nearly 7 billion people is a miracle from God.

This all might sound like a bunch of theories. Well, consider a recent poll that revealed the Many Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics is accepted by most scientists. So if you believe what some mystics teach then know you are not alone in the weirdness factor. That some of the brainiest people in the world probably have one up on you in weird beliefs.

Last, I enjoy your thoughts here, but I really have better things to do than post lengthy theoretical information. I just wanted to say the reason I made this post is because it is truth for me. So yes, I became friends with a so called mystic who without shadow of doubt proved these things to little old me, and I'm a tough cookie, lol, scientifically minded.  Oh, and my personal out of body projections didn't hurt either.  Like some of you, I spent a great deal of time projecting to far places in a large and complex city and afterwards went there in the physical to confirm that yes indeed I was there out of body. Yep, this stuff is real folks! Did it work every time? Nope, it failed miserably many times. I did many out of body experiments that failed. Thing is, obe is an art, a training. Like most things in life, it takes work. Have you seen people in shape who can do dozens of pull-ups. Sure, you can do hundreds of those out of body, but I'm talking about in the physical. Does that mean you can walk over to a bar and start doing them? No way!  Yet with time and practice most of you can. As you really know, same applies with obe's? With practice and time under your obe belt you learn to develop your bodies. Before you know it (well, okay, I think it usually takes like 5 years average of solid obe practice) you could fly just about anywhere on Earth and confirm the experience afterwards in the physical. Before you know it, you'll learn to sync to Earths Etheric and project there, and it is real folks. It sounds easy, but some end up believing it is difficult. Well, truth is, it is easy, but you just need to practice practice practice. Would you like to learn how to be a good singer? Not a professional singer, just a good old singer. Some might think it is difficult. After several months you might think it is nearly impossible. Sure, you might not be the next American Idol, but most vocalist will tell you just about anyone can learn to sing fairly well. Just takes time folks!  I don't mean to preach. You all know the story.

God bless,
Inward