Your viewpoints on the planes/ subtle bodies and projection....

[Synergy]

First of all I mean no offense to any of the prominent OBE authors out there as they helped me a great deal when I first was learning about my spontaneous OBEs. But I have noticed something....

Most all OBE authors seem to lump all OBEs into one category called Astral Projection.  I find this confusing since there is a very big difference between the different experiences.  Using the common occult / new age model for the planes (which gets roots from Tantric Busddhism) The levels go Physical, Etheric, Astral, Mental and so on.... Etheric is considered part of the physical and so retains much of the physical properties (This is why people can get stuck to power lines etc)

In Etheric projection (aka real-time projection) you perceive the physical world as it should be.... no mystical dreamlike qualities, and nothing out of place to suggest that it is a dream.  Most all of my spontaneous OBEs were etheric.  EP describes nearly ALL of the typical floating over the body type experiences.  Then why do the authors all seem to call this astral projection?? IMHO I think this confuses beginners. In EP we are using the etheric body to interact on the etheric plane.

In Astral Projection, things are much different.  From my own experiences, things were much more mystical, everything was brighter and it was like everything had a visible aura, even inanimate objects.  It was like colors were jumping off everything (not in a drug induced way btw lol) but more like everything just had more life to it.  Also, I could hear colors, and see music (if that makes sense) and actually both are closely related (both are vibrational octaves of 8 -> 7 + the base repeated)  So it was like I was able to sense the underlying vibrations to everything.  I did not perceive the physical world at all.... this was true astral projection, to the astral plane, and in the astral subtle body.  Completely different then what most authors seem to be calling astral projection.

And then we could get into mental projection.... but since its so rare I will leave it out of this question...

If you look in Occult literature, they are very clear on how the planes are divided, even in texts passed down through secret societies such as Rosicsucians.  They are very clear that etheric is closest to physical.

Why do you think that many authors (and again I mean no disrespect, for they have helped me a great deal too) but why do you think they lump all OBEs into the term astral projection, and seem to leave etheric projection out?  WHy do they describe an etheric projection and call it astral projection at all when its a completely different experience?  RB seems to be the only one I have found who describes 'real time' projection at all. 

What are your own viewpoints on the different types of OBEs and do you agree with calling them all astral projection?? Do you think that the reason why they have been lumped together is just to make things easier for a beginner to understand?

[Spawn_Xe]

I complete agree, i read your book and noticed you mentioning this very subject. When i first browsed the web for answers on what i was experiencing, i decided to visit forums because they are the easiest ways of getting your questions answered without trawling through pages of useless opinions and views. Unfortunately, i did encounter people using AP and OBE synonymously.. being a complete noob i was instantly confused, expecially reading through other peoples experiences where they'd switch between obes and ap wehn describing the same event.

So yeah, i'm aware of thier difference now because i've spent days reading about them... tho i guess it did make me more curious and inclined to figure it out lol.. so not always a bad thing eh?


personally i'm labeling APs as Dreams for now, being always slightly skeptical i'll researve that until i experiance it... too much to try and understand otherwise lol. Hopefully someone can give you an answer as, in retrospect, my post is probably just spam.

[kiwibonga]

I'm writing a guide of my own and I've spent a good deal of time trying to sort out how I should name things... The terminology is so confusing, and the fact that occultists borrow words from science and put their own meaning on them doesn't help!

I've decided that "dream" and "lucid dream" are words that have a definition in the scientific community, and are therefore useless. I don't think there is such a thing as a lucid dream -- it's an oxymoron, dreams are never lucid! Instead, I decided to use the word "nightly experience" wherever possible instead of "dream" ; nobody can get confused because the expression isn't in the dictionary . I avoid the expression "lucid dream" entirely ; a lucid dream is a projection to a subjective astral realm in most cases...

Another thing that bothers me is "sleep paralysis." I decided to use Muldoon and Carrington's term, "Astral catalepsy" -- when the projector is stuck in an etheric projection and has difficulty moving -- to differentiate it from the "scientific" term.

I decided not to keep Robert Bruce's "Real Time Zone" because it is the exact same thing as the etheric plane. I did however mention the "projectable double."

I'm still undecided on whether to use the word etheric projection for RTZ projection... If that's an etheric projection, then what do you call it when you shift your consciousness into the etheric body and are "stuck to the physical?" I think both "sleep paralysis" and "RTZ projection" are types of etheric projections, yet they do not occur in the same subtle body.

As for calling the etheric projection an Astral Projection, I think it's fine -- what very few occultists mention is that the etheric and physical planes are actually part of the astral... I think when physics and occultism meet this will be clarified.

[Synergy]

I view sleep paralysis as physiological... in the sense that all voluntary muscle tone is diminished.  The state can be recorded on EEG.  Narcoleptics often experience it.  I dont think SP in itself is a projection... I think it's just one step prior to separation.  In sleep paralysis, you can still move your physical eyes, and you know you are still in your physical body (although unable to move) so I do not think it is a projection. 

Thats intersting what you mention about etheric and physical being part of astral.  I have never read that!  Everything I have read puts etheric as part of the physical but astral as a seperate realm.  Can you give me a link? Id be interested in reading it

[Awakened_Mind]

IMO, the term "Out of Body Experience" is the most generic term used. As our understanding of OBE's grows, we need to redefine the terminology. There is a difference between AP and EP and all OBE's should not be called AP's.

The growth of projectors these days would indicate a future science of OBE's. Respected by the majority of the scientific community. The problem lies in observation. I don't think we are all suffering from mass hysteria.

We are the pioneers. Be proud.

I believe that OBE's to any higher level of existance is a reflection of consciousness. Where consciousness is reflected into the astral/etheric/mental etc planes. Enabling us to recall the experience upon re-entry. Quantum physics has recently discovered that an object can exist in two places at the same time. How this happens has to do with resonating frequencies. For example your computer monitor has it's own frequency. For it to exist in a different place it would just be another manifestation of the same frequency. This may be a little confusing. I think consciousness, or our point of awareness, reflects itself on a higher planes. Every plane/dimension are complementary to each other.

This viewpoint stems from our subjective nature. The point of view of the individual observer is always different. Different way of saying the same thing really. For example, if I look at my dog (IMO) I see something different than you would. Physically we see the same thing, but the way we interpret it is different. Concepts of ownership, sentimental value etc. If this idea is then applied to everything I look at, then in reality I am staring at myself projected out onto the world.

I care no more for the success of my words than is agreeable to truth.

-AM

[kiwibonga]

Synergy -- well, sleep paralysis in my experience is definitely not the same as the "scientific" definition ; it is a state of deep trance where the consciousness is able to control both the physical and etheric (energy) body. In that state you (usually) have full fledged astral vision and hearing, often much sharper hearing than in physical reality. It is possible to "sit up" in the etheric body while the physical is still sound asleep, but you can still feel and control the physical. Trying to move physical limbs tends to produce weird sounds, like crackling and theremin-like tones inside the non-physical head.

I noticed that I am in this state when I am dreaming, and my consciousness seems to be centered in an area above the navel. In order to exit the dream, I feel for my non-physical body and back out of this area to find myself in the room, not projected but not in the physical either, "trapped in my body" with limited movement capabilities. It's possible to remain in this state for as long as you do not move the physical body too much, if you make any sudden movements with the physical body, the trance is broken and you wake up. I don't think there's a physiological paralysis in this state because it happens during a phase of light sleep and all my limbs are operational, just slightly out of phase and difficult to command, but definitely not paralyzed.

There seem to be different "levels" of paralysis, depending on how focused you are in the etheric body. Sometimes it is a somewhat lighter state of trance where much of the consciousness is shifted in the physical, and any attempt to move the physical limbs immediately aborts the "projection," which produces strong pressure, as if you were sucked back into the body. In order to deepen the state and shift back into the etheric body, it can be useful to try and look around, to let the astral vision replace the darkness behind the eyelids. Once a deep enough state is attained (once you are properly focused/anchored in the non-physical), it becomes easy to project.

The symptoms of this "astral catalepsy" I experienced dozens of times are just so similar to the descriptions of sleep paralysis, I don't think they can be different... I do know that there are chemicals responsible for shutting down the muscles during sleep, supposedly so that we don't act out our dreams, but I don't see how people would report astral vision if they were really awake and 100% unable to move... It seems both "astral catalepsy" and legitimate chemical-related "sleep paralysis" have been put in the same bag ; if the latter really does exist, then there are two different types of sleep paralysis, and one of them is paranormal in nature, hence why I feel it's important to separate them.

The suggestion that the chemicals are meant to prevent us from acting out our dreams seems pretty weird to me, by the way... These are the same scientists who claim a dream happens over the course of a split second in the middle of REM sleep... How do you find the time to act out an instantaneous spurt of random garbage memory, Mr Scientist?


About the physical being part of the astral, it's pretty tough to explain, but it's what I gathered from reading Seth Speaks by Jane Roberts, the physics part in Adventures Beyond the Body by William Buhlman, Cosmic Journeys by Rosalind McKnight... Edgar Cayce researched this as well... I'll try to explain it...

Basically, the non-physical universe is a big blob of consciousness ("Thought-stuff", intelligent matter). The astral realm we live in was created by some entity in a very particular way: instead of creating a world like the other astral realms out of consciousness, it created a world out of the echos of consciousness.

Everything in the universe has to have an equal and opposite reaction. When a particle is created, an anomaly is created. Consciousness is considered "light matter," while physical matter is "dark matter." When a light matter particle is created in the astral, a dark matter counterpart comes into existence. Astral realms are made of this light matter, and are inhabited by light matter beings. These realms are as tangible as our physical reality, yet the degree of freedom experienced there is much greater. The difference between our physical plane and other realms is that we do not actually exist in the non-physical, we are made up of the anomalies created by the existence of "real" matter.

The etheric is the "real" world, while the physical is only an echo of it. The etheric is not separate from the Astral, it is actually right in the middle of it. I think it was in one of Monroe's books -- an entity described our realm as a spectrum going from 0 to 5, and we are at 2.5. The astral does extend both below and above the physical, so it would seem that we are right in the middle of the astral spectrum.

The idea is that the physical universe does not actually exist per se, it is more of an intentional by-product, which was designed specifically to prevent matter from traveling dimensionally by exploiting the properties of this "dark matter". So therefore, the physical and etheric are subsets of the astral, not actually separate dimensions.

I don't know if I explained it right, but that's the gist of it.

[Synergy]

very interesting kiwibonga...
its actually kind of how I visioned the planes anyway, its just easier to put them in a linear kind of diagram, but I always kind of visioned them like a big ......onion! (not the stink lol) I mean the layers, and physical is in the center, then etheric, both would be inside astral, astral inside of lower mental, lower mental inside of upper mental and so on... so when we project I kind of vision us esaping outward towards the source of creation. 

I have read that we are the product of conscious creation on the astral level. 

Regarding the seth books, there is an online free book by David Wilcock called Shift Of The Ages that writs about alot of the seth channelings.  Supposedly this whole planet (and solar system) is moving into a higher density, higher energy part of space and we will all become 4th dimension beings?? What I find hard to understand is the dimensions vs planes....  I think Seth is a 5th density being according to the readings??

[upstream]

There are at least 5 types of paralysis:

1. Passive (NREM) paralysis: very low muscle tone as a result of deep sleep or progressive muscle relaxation

Active paralysis (spinal motoneurons' membrane are kept hyperpolarised by a specific group of brainstem neurons causing motor weakness):

2. Cataplexy (don't confuse with catalepsy): a symptom associated with narcolepsy. The muscles are actively paralysed but the physical environmental awareness is kept, eyes can follow physical objects. Acetylcholinergic activity and hippocampal theta is similar to that of in REM sleep, but hystamine neurons (which shut off in all known stages of sleep) remain completely active. Another interesting thing is that noradrenergic activity in locus coeruleus strickly follows the cataplexy episode, meaning that noradrenerg neurons instantly and completely switch off at the onset of cataplexy episode then start to fire immediately afterwards again.

3. Active paralysis in a predream state: you are stuck in the paralysed physical body reflecting its inability to move from the hara region (pressure is felt here) - probably has the same neurophysiological background as cataplexy.

4. Normal dream state paralysis in REM sleep: one part of awareness (the dreamer) is in the body-bounded etheric body (bioplasm) associated with the solar plexus, the other part (the dreamt) experiences a dream (via the throat center that is appear to be mainly the projection of the hippocampus-amigdala complex). When dreaming attention collapses you are in the void of the bioplasm body, able to reconnect to the dreaming self or roll out in a phantom body into the dream version of the room (not a real separation). You can also ooze out with a portion of bioplasm body but it will soon reintegrate freeing up the body-unbounded RTZ field.

5. Paralysis via RTZ-projection: you are in the body-unbounded etheric body (which may realize itself directly from the physical vacuum), already projected and free to move around with this vehicle but for some reason still reflecting physical paralysis from the chest region (pressure is felt here).

When you enter the astral the compact sensory field of this "RTZ body" is supposed to decondense into a domain of Earth's magnetopshere. From the viewpoint of a waking observer it may look like an explosion in space by which all the activity that the RTZ double encompass would merge back into the physical vacuum. The field became intermingled with other consciousness fields but keeps coherence as a sign of individuality.

[kiwibonga]

Ah, good, now I know I'd better avoid "sleep paralysis" with more than 500% certainty

[catmeow]

Hmmm... well that clears that up then!

On a more serious note, I'm pleased to hear people on this board once again distinguishing "etheric" and "astral" projection.  I find it puzzling that while these terms were used by the early pioneers to mean quite different things, as pointed out by Synergy, the meaning has now been lost in all this talk about "phasing" and "focus of consciousness".  There seems to be this popular modern notion that EP = AP = LD = everything is really just the same thing. I've never really subscribed to that point of view.  The three experiences are quite completely different, IMO.

[MisterJingo]

Hmmm... well that clears that up then!

On a more serious note, I'm pleased to hear people on this board once again distinguishing "etheric" and "astral" projection.  I find it puzzling that while these terms were used by the early pioneers to mean quite different things, as pointed out by Synergy, the meaning has now been lost in all this talk about "phasing" and "focus of consciousness".  There seems to be this popular modern notion that EP = AP = LD = everything is really just the same thing. I've never really subscribed to that point of view.  The three experiences are quite completely different, IMO.

Things can be different but of the same medium. Phasing simply puts all experience into a single framework. I don't think anyone here would deny consciousness as a base for all these experiences. Phasing takes the view that it is all consciousness; these different experiences simply take place at different points on consciousnesses spectrum. Everything is a structure of consciousness, and while LDs might occur in 'perceived' 'internal' locales, and astral projection is the astral planes proper - they are ultimately born of the same stuff. RTZ OBEs which people usually invent an ethereal body for such experiences (to fit it into a preconceived belief system [conscious structure]) could simply take place in the areas of consciousness directly nearing the physical. So they would near enough mirror the physical, but can contain more creative elements.
One can continue to believe in energy bodies, etheric, mental, transcendental etc planes, but these are simply labels of conscious construct with no absolute truth or reality. Consciousness is and transcends it all.
I like phasing as it goes to the core, rather than getting caught up in structures built by thousands of years of reinforced belief. And as you can probably tell, I don't hold by tradition for traditions sake. All things change, including world (and death) views.

[jub jub]

My viewpoint for what it's worth, all matter exists simultaneously and occupies the same space dimension, even the realms of the astral, which are actually physical to the inhabitants there. It's the frequency, which defines the state. Because each realm vibrates at it's own rate, we are not able to perceive the other realms much the same way as you can only receive one station, or channel at a time on a TV or radio even though many stations occupy the same airways at the same time.

The lowest frequency represents the void or 3D blackness and the highest is pure white light, or knowledge, God if you will.

Have you ever wondered about ghosts or UFO sightings? I believe slight phase shifts cause the phenomena and allow us to view objects or people from another time and dimension. They momentarily phase into our dimension and you see what appears to be an apparition.

It seems pretty simple and basic doesn't it? That's why I believe it to be true. I work on the principal of KISS. If you add up all the evidence and throw in throw in some scientific principles, it just seems to make sense.

[blade5x]

This makes me think of String Theory - that everything is made of vibrating little strings of energy, and the universe vibrates in harmony at a certain frequency.

What if that energy was to vibrate "out of harmony" and take on a new range of frequency - new dimension, new plane of existance? Who knows.

Oh, and I am definently near paralyzed in SP. I feel like I can very slowly move my limbs, but in reality, I cannot. I've experimented, where it felt like I took my left and right arms over my chest and crossed them in resting position. When I broke out of it, they were laying down by my sides where they were initially.

[CFTraveler]

MJ wrote: 

Things can be different but of the same medium. Phasing simply puts all experience into a single framework. I don't think anyone here would deny consciousness as a base for all these experiences. Phasing takes the view that it is all consciousness; these different experiences simply take place at different points on consciousnesses spectrum. Everything is a structure of consciousness, and while LDs might occur in 'perceived' 'internal' locales, and astral projection is the astral planes proper - they are ultimately born of the same stuff. RTZ OBEs which people usually invent an ethereal body for such experiences (to fit it into a preconceived belief system [conscious structure]) could simply take place in the areas of consciousness directly nearing the physical. So they would near enough mirror the physical, but can contain more creative elements.
One can continue to believe in energy bodies, etheric, mental, transcendental etc planes, but these are simply labels of conscious construct with no absolute truth or reality. Consciousness is and transcends it all.

I'm with you on this.  You can label something because of it's properties, but perception is at the base of the experience- whatever you call it.

[Synergy]

My viewpoint for what it's worth, all matter exists simultaneously and occupies the same space dimension, even the realms of the astral, which are actually physical to the inhabitants there. It's the frequency, which defines the state. Because each realm vibrates at it's own rate, we are not able to perceive the other realms much the same way as you can only receive one station, or channel at a time on a TV or radio even though many stations occupy the same airways at the same time.

The lowest frequency represents the void or 3D blackness and the highest is pure white light, or knowledge, God if you will.

Have you ever wondered about ghosts or UFO sightings? I believe slight phase shifts cause the phenomena and allow us to view objects or people from another time and dimension. They momentarily phase into our dimension and you see what appears to be an apparition.

It seems pretty simple and basic doesn't it? That's why I believe it to be true. I work on the principal of KISS. If you add up all the evidence and throw in throw in some scientific principles, it just seems to make sense.

Thats how I view it... different base frequencies for each level or plane, and I use string theory as my model... actually I try to correlate all of the mainstream religions and how they view other realms... and I believe that we exist in all of the levels at once, kind of using the quantum physics experiment that showed a single particle CAN exist in two places at once... I try to integrate science, philosophy and religion into one. 

I wasn't so much trying to get everyones detailed descriptions of the planes (well... maybe I was lol) but I was more trying to find out what people thought about how many mainstream authors lump all OBEs into the term Astral Projection, when EP and AP are two very different experiences.  no matter what you label them, they are different from each other... so you cant call them the same thing IMHO.

[jub jub]

I wasn't so much trying to get everyones detailed descriptions of the planes (well... maybe I was lol) but I was more trying to find out what people thought about how many mainstream authors lump all OBEs into the term Astral Projection, when EP and AP are two very different experiences.  no matter what you label them, they are different from each other... so you cant call them the same thing IMHO.

OK, I feel like a dummy. I went back and read your question and I see what you're asking. I think it's just a matter of semantics for the most part. It's easier just to classify everthing as AP, at least that's the way I see it.

Let's think about this for a moment, what's the difference between taking a trip to some far off land or taking a trip to the corner store? They are both still considered trips but the distances entailed are much different. Why then should the etheric projection be classified differently than an astral projection? Same thing, different frequencies. But you have to call them something that people can relate to and understand.

Sorry, just felt like playing Devil's advocate.

[Synergy]

OK, I feel like a dummy. I went back and read your question and I see what you're asking. I think it's just a matter of semantics for the most part. It's easier just to classify everthing as AP, at least that's the way I see it.

Let's think about this for a moment, what's the difference between taking a trip to some far off land or taking a trip to the corner store? They are both still considered trips but the distances entailed are much different. Why then should the etheric projection be classified differently than an astral projection? Same thing, different frequencies. But you have to call them something that people can relate to and understand.

Sorry, just felt like playing Devil's advocate.

Yes ok... a perfectly good descriptor already exists that can be used to describe all of them: "Out-Of-Body Experiences"  

Leave Ap and EP for more advanced descriptions of them. 

[Mendel]

I think that Astral Projection was the only terminology available to describe both OBE and astral experiences until
people came up with terms like "out-of-body" and "real-time zone". I don't know about the word "etheric body"
Anyways, it's a traditional usage to mean all of these things.
But now that we do have some more specific terms we can be a little more descriptive. In Mr. Bruce's latest tome,
which I started reading out of curiosity, he describes many different bodies and projections.

In my view, there's at least an in-the-body RTZ state (seeing thru closed eyelids), and out-of-the body RTZ state, a pseudo-OBE
state where I think I'm going OBE, but I'm not even in my physical bedroom (really probably astral), and the astral state.
Then there's hybrids like dual-awareness states and self-perception states (like seeing yourself as a mirror image)

Ok, now with all these classifications, I would tell a beginner, if you can achieve any one of these states, then you can achieve any other. So I might make use a lump-together term like "projecting." to describe it all.

Synergy: BTW, I perceive energy bodies as concentric but in opposite order. Astral within Etheric, Mental within astral, etc. For example, when I try to project to the mental plane, sometimes I feel myself peeling my astral body off. Also, I think it's Buhlman who talks about commanding himself to go inward and finding himself in a higher vibrational plane.

-mike

[Synergy]

Hmm I will have to see what he sais about the seeing thru closed eyelids... I always considered this Remote Viewing... I have had it happen many times (spontaneously) while waking...  I KNOW I am in my body so I discounted it as being an OBE.  But at first I would see shadows and not relly in color... I would try to focus on the scene and Id be able to see colors, and movement, one was a scene of a valley with chale style houses (maybe like in Switzerland) but in Summer... and wisps of smoke coming from chimneys.  It was like I was standing on a hillside and looking down into the Valley.  Oddly enough my Mom has had these same visions, and of the same place! I still consider them Remote Viewing because I can feel my physical body, move my physical body, and know that I am in my physical body... its just that I can see like watching tv on the backs of my eyelids.

It's interesting that he considers that a type of OBE... which book?? Is it in the 90 days to Astral Projection one??

[Mendel]

The different types of "projecting" I describe are my own views not Mr. Bruce's. His
MAP talks about a lot of different energy bodies, though.

Notice, I call it "in-the-body." Now that I think of it, "in-the-body" vision can lead
to RTZ vision, where I see my bedroom with closed eyes. It can also lead to an astral or mental experience where the field of view starts small and expands into a full immersive experience. I'm not sure where RV'ing fits in...

-mike

[catmeow]

1. Belief Constructs

What is "real" and what is a "belief construct"?  When does an etheric body stop being "real" and become a belief construct?  We can never say, because there is no distinction between these two ideas, they are equal. 

The "reality" in which we find ourselves is simply a consensus environment in which all consciousnesses agree on a common environment.  The rules of this environment become what we percieve as the "out there".  However there is no need for there to be an "out there" at all.  Most likely there is no actual "out there" at all, just a common consensus of how things are.  So our "physical bodies" are just a consensus belief construct - in fact a very pwerful one.  Similarly the etheric body is a consensus belief construct. 

But there is no distinction between a "consensus belief construct" and a "real" objective thing.  So for this reason I think it's just as valid to talk about "etheric bodies" as it is to talk about "physical bodies".

2. Phasing Model

What I see as the big difficulty with the phasing model is that it's over-simplistic. Our "physical bodies" eventually pack  in and "die".  I haven't yet seen anyone explain how to "phase" back into your physical body after it has died?  If life were just a simplistic continuum of consciousness, as suggested by the phasing model, then why do we physically die?  Why can't we just phase back into the physical?

Well we can't because things are a bit more complicated than the phasing model suggests.  I do believe that it is over-simplistic to suggest that there is a simple continuum on which to place PWC, EP, AP LD etc.  I think it's a bit more complicated than that. That's why I don't really buy into it.  It's not all bad, but it's not completely accurate.

[MisterJingo]

1. Belief Constructs

What is "real" and what is a "belief construct"?  When does an etheric body stop being "real" and become a belief construct?  We can never say, because there is no distinction between these two ideas, they are equal. 

The "reality" in which we find ourselves is simply a consensus environment in which all consciousnesses agree on a common environment.  The rules of this environment become what we percieve as the "out there".  However there is no need for there to be an "out there" at all.  Most likely there is no actual "out there" at all, just a common consensus of how things are.  So our "physical bodies" are just a consensus belief construct - in fact a very pwerful one.  Similarly the etheric body is a consensus belief construct. 

See bottom.

But there is no distinction between a "consensus belief construct" and a "real" objective thing.  So for this reason I think it's just as valid to talk about "etheric bodies" as it is to talk about "physical bodies".

If we look at any astral philosophy, objectivity is an illusion, as they usually all see reality as a consensus construct built by consciousnesses for some reason (usually to learn or such).
We can believe in energy bodies, and chakras and energy systems, But to me, they are not really necessary – if you put belief into them then sure, they might have a reality to you – but I see it as burdening oneself with extra belief systems.
Most people talk of returning to the source, or seeing reality as an illusion – yet to attempt to achieve this they seem to take on a lot of extra baggage (belief systems). It seems a bit like walking further from the goal to me.

2. Phasing Model

What I see as the big difficulty with the phasing model is that it's over-simplistic. Our "physical bodies" eventually pack  in and "die".  I haven't yet seen anyone explain how to "phase" back into your physical body after it has died?  If life were just a simplistic continuum of consciousness, as suggested by the phasing model, then why do we physically die?  Why can't we just phase back into the physical?

Well we can't because things are a bit more complicated than the phasing model suggests.  I do believe that it is over-simplistic to suggest that there is a simple continuum on which to place PWC, EP, AP LD etc.  I think it's a bit more complicated than that. That's why I don't really buy into it.  It's not all bad, but it's not completely accurate.

If you take 'reality' to be a model built by powerful consensus belief. Firstly, you agree that reality is a shared construct somehow manifest from this belief, and secondly, rules have been imposed on reality to give it the form it has now.
Phasing would see reality as a conscious construct (belief as you stated above) moulded out of consciousness itself.
The rules imposed upon this would give the reason why we cannot phase back into a physically dead body.
If you believe in this powerful consensus belief between consciousnesses creating reality and its rules, then that is literally the phasing model.
PWC, EP, AP LD can simply be seen as experiences on and in different constructs.


I'm not sure I'm articulating what I mean, but I'll try. Simply stated, I believe energy bodies, chakras, etheric bodies etc only hold reality in the human sphere of belief. They are constructs which have been formed over a very long time.
They exist because they were created, not because they are fundamental elements of the overall reality.
We can use these tools if we wish, but they are not essential. They are simply tools fashioned from humans cultural evolution and attempts to understand reality in and outside of themselves.
Other AP philosophies see these beliefs as absolute realities essential to all life. Phasing would see these beliefs as constructs fashioned over time out of consciousness.

Personally, I consider the possibility that physical reality was not created by consensus belief, but that its seemingly consistent nature between all inhabitants is due to causality driven processes cascading down the ages from the big bang. That is, sciences model might be correct.
For whatever reason, rudimentary consciousness formed, its been refined, and now we find ourselves here (as per evolution). The astral and areas stretching off from it could be a product of consciousness in the 'physical', rather than the physical being a product of the astral and higher realms.
Different areas of the astral would then have direct parallels with our base and higher emotions (which seems to be the case), and as one journeys deeper into the astral, the structure that the consistency of reality provides falls away, giving rise to increasingly abstract locales which have not got the cohesion of those nearer to reality.
This idea would place the physical as the source, and perhaps the perceived source as a sate so far out from the shoreline of reality that no interaction occurs so it is pure consciousness.

[Enoch]

I think the terms you speak of are much like religion. They are a means to a way. The human is so narrow in or linear in thinking in the present system we have that these terms are essential to the process of evolution and occult studies. Words and symbols are everything in this time. So we use chakra which is related to our physical makeup but also our astral body. Indeed the relation between chakra, the biblical rainbow and the tree of life is too close to consider it just a human made belief. I do agree tha some terms limit us, but some we need just to get people on a path. 

[upstream]

1. Belief Constructs

What is "real" and what is a "belief construct"?  When does an etheric body stop being "real" and become a belief construct?  We can never say, because there is no distinction between these two ideas, they are equal. 

The "reality" in which we find ourselves is simply a consensus environment in which all consciousnesses agree on a common environment.  The rules of this environment become what we percieve as the "out there".  However there is no need for there to be an "out there" at all.  Most likely there is no actual "out there" at all, just a common consensus of how things are.  So our "physical bodies" are just a consensus belief construct - in fact a very pwerful one.  Similarly the etheric body is a consensus belief construct. 

But there is no distinction between a "consensus belief construct" and a "real" objective thing.  So for this reason I think it's just as valid to talk about "etheric bodies" as it is to talk about "physical bodies".

My exact thoughts on the subject, catmeow.