The Lord is My Light --REVISITED

[Bhikku]

I hear what your saying brother. It is going to come down to facing yourself in the end, no one else. It will be your choice of where you want to go after this life, and it is sad to know that some will choose the lesser light. As far as the Christian bashing goes, I have never looked down upon anyones beliefs, no matter how far removed they were from my own. I just think that the attitide that the Cristian church has towards those who do not participate in their religion is very harsh, therefore making folks take an "offensive defense" -if you will, towards Christianity. The message I get from the Christian church is "No matter what you believe in, if it's not what we beleive in, your going to hell. End of story" Even you participating in this website discussion, and the practices it realates, would be looked down upon by your holy men. It just seems too harsh a standpoint for something with so little backup. Just my 2 cents though.

"Look within, thou art the Budda"

[Adrian]

Greetings!

Yes indeed, although it is correct course of action to call upon the sacred name(s) of "Jesus", this has little to do with "christianity" as a popular religion. The the original Ancient Hebrew name is "Yod, Heh, Shin, Vavh, Heh", the "Shin" being inserted in the sacred "Tetragrammaton" to form the sacred "Pentagrammaton". "Shin" looks like three small flames in Ancient Hebrew, and represents the flame of Divinity, sometimes called "The Holy Spirit", "Ruach Elohim", "Chi", "Ki", "Prana", "Kundalini" and many other such names. Anyone who would seek to be a saviour unto themselves, must be able to unite with the Divinity by way of the "Holy Spirit" or "Ruach Elohim". The Pentagrammaton came to be pronounced "Yeh-hah-shu-ah", which became "Joshua", and then in Greek "Yay-su" and finally arrived in English as "Jesus",(but which is effectively a title, not a person, and which anyone can come to hold), and subsequently, in an almost totally unrecognisable form the basis of the bible and christianity thanks in no small part to King James!

But then of course there was "Christ" who was the great Master (of christianity), just as Buddha and Hermes (Trismegistus) were also great Adepts among several others.

The point I am making is that it would seem that "christianity" is terribly confused, and equally it seems to me that the christian church has no real comprehension of the Ancient Hebrew origins of these cosmic factors. They glibly speak of Jesus Christ, Heaven and Hell, and as has been pointed out, the dogma of the bible, which they compell everyone to believe in, for fear of being sent immediately after death to some dark spiritual plane.

I am not judging christianity.  Christians have an absolute God given right to believe in whatever they like to believe in, and which suits their life, and all I would humbly and sincerely ask in return is that christianity does not judge me.

As for rituals and excorcisms for the fighting of demons, negs etc., calling upon the sacred names of "God" as the "Tetragrammaton" and in the sacred name of "Jesus" i.e. the "Pentagrammaton", is very fine indeed, but again, it is nothing really to do with christianity.

I hope this adds another perspective at least to this debate

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[PeacefulWarrior]

Bikku- thanks, but I must tell you that there are no "holy men" in my church.  I am a Latter-Day Saint, thus we have no paid clergy.  We do, of course, have leaders--but every worthy male recieves the priesthood.  Each week in church the members themselves, men and women, speak to the congregation...needless to say this fosters a true learning experience.

Adrian- it's interesting you bring up the name Elohim... that is the plural for "god" in Hebrew, thus GODS.  As a Latter-Day Saint, we don't believe there is one God, well we do...there is one God for us, or at least we say this to keep things simple, but really there are many Gods...in fact we believe that every person may become like God...that is why there was a council of Gods to decide about the organization of this world...

I think it's important to learn about what we as LDS believe because we are like NO other Christian faith...other Christian churches have only begun to accept the truth while, I believe, as a LDS Christian we accept all truth.



Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

[Adrian]

Greetings Daniel!

Well I do endeavour to familiarise myself at very least with as many popular beliefs as possible, because I do not like to formulate opinions from a standpoint of ignorance.

But at the same time, I do not subscribe to, and could never, ever be swayed towards any "packaged belief system" or "religion". The only spiritual truth for me, is my own spiritual truth as discovered, formulated and interpreted by myself, from my own spiritual experiences, and spiritual knowledge acquired on my ever ongoing path.

I don't know much about LDS, but I would admit that you do seem more open minded and receptive to universal realities than many christian organisations. It is still a packaged belief system though is it not? But I totally respect your right to follow that path - the choice is yours and yours alone.

Kind regards,

Adrian.

[Bhikku]

"The only spiritual truth for me, is my own spiritual truth as discovered, formulated and interpreted by myself, from my own spiritual experiences, and spiritual knowledge acquired on my ever ongoing path."

Couldn't have been said better.


"Look within, thou art the Budda"

[PeacefulWarrior]

Where to start?  Well, let me say this first: I agree with you to a point.  I also believe that, when it's all said and done, it's the individual, and his/her experiences and desires that lead to exaltation (my word for the ultimate enlightenment, perfection) but I also believe that Christ is the Son of God...the only half mortal, half God that ever lived on the face of this planet.  This is where we differ because I don't think either of you believe this.  

Since I believe in the divinity of Christ, I also believe in the divinity of the organization that he designed while on the earth...namely an institution comprised of a prophet (which He was) and 12 Apostles.  I believe that after He ascended to the presence of the Father (which was after he ministered to those spirits in lower realms/planes and came back to show the Apostles that He was indeed still alive and he ate with them to prove He was restored to a physical body-although one very different than we have right now as mortals)- so after he ascended to the Father and after the Apostles were all killed, then things went wrong.  The truth and authority he had bestowed on the Apostles and other disciples was lost...there was an apostasy...and we are all familiar with what Christianity became, and still is for the most part.  

As Latter-Day Saints we believe Joseph Smith, at the age of fourteen, prayed to know what the truth was.  As he prayed he felt a deep, dark presence and he thought he was going to be destroyed...and just as he began to give up all hope suddenly he saw a pillar of light, beyond description, and everything around him became as if it were luminous and transparent, the whole forest itself seemed to vibrate and became gloriously bright, as if the nature of all the matter in the vicinity had somehow changed.  Then he saw two personages, bathed in a light like none he had ever seen, and soon they were just above him.  One spake saying, "This is my beloved Son, hear Him..."  And then the other spoke and told young Joseph not to join any church, for they all had wonderful things on their lips, but their hearts were far from God.

This simple experience, which many scorn, is, in my humble opinion, one of the greatest pieces of news ever to be told.  At the age of fourteen Joseph, in a very intolerant community, told his family and then others what had occured.  He was spat upon and ridiculed, but he never took back what he said happened that night.  He died defending what he had experienced.  

Smith taught many principles: that spirit is matter, but of a more subtle type.  He told people that what we are would blow them away, and it did.  He said, for instance, that one could leave his or her body and then leave that body and be a "point of light, capable of seeing in all directions."  Things like this led many to believe he was crazy.  More importantly he taught that all men and women are children of God, part of a divine source...and that "a man is saved only so fast as he gains wisdom" and "the glory of God is intelligence".  Such doctrine was deemed radical and the Saints were driven and murdered, until they sought refuge in the then swamps of Salt Lake City.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything, only to explain where we are coming from.  We, as Christians, are not accepted in the Christian community.  Other Christians say "our" Jesus isn't their Jesus...which, in effect, is true...for they limit themselves to a point of view so narrow as to choke the truth and love and light out of what Christ really stands for.

whyprophets.com is a wonderful website to learn more about the LDS faith.

Anyway, peace!!!

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

[Mobius]

Hi all, heavy going ons in here.Adrian you thought stealer!
Mate, its what I believe in all over.
If you need some one to tell you what to think & do, how it was & is,
you are indeed one of the sheep & not a shepard.
If you need to write reams of hypocritical material or go around
knocking on peoples doors to tell them THIS is the word, it is you
who needs saving.

All the best on your journeys.

Mobius

[Joe]

G'day All,

Mobius - not sure if you meant Adrian, Daniel, or LDS in general?. I don't think Adrian is LDS...

I (like others) thought I'd chime in with 2c on the belief system discussion. I have to say that I feel people generally over-simplify and misconstrue religion, especially Christianity. It is vogue in Western postmodernism to shun heritage beliefs, while pursuing exotic or novel belief systems as if they were any better. Every religion has a core of truth, surrounded by a thick slab of ritual, dogma and human tradition. The trouble with modern Christianity is that the heart of simple and powerful truth was lost in centuries of Patrician and Dark Ages corruption and lost ways, and has never fully revived - today we are left with a shell of moral teaching without the spiritual power that gives it life.

I think we make a mistake though, in isolating a "fashionable" Jesus from "unfashionable" tradition - he surely must have said *some*, if not much, of what is in the Gospels. In addition, many of the Christian church fathers were *extremely* adept at spiritual practices, ie Francis of Assisi in Samadhi, Jean Vianney and entity warfare, and many many others. I would firmly disagree that Christianity has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Jesus' name, or that none of it is relevant to today's "enlightened" thinking population. The heart of Christ's teachings and His example are very powerful - we just need to dig a little further to find the core of truth and spiritual depth... And keep that baby, minus the bathwater. This applies equally to all religions - Buddhism, Hinduism, etc (although not sure about Islam - some of the things that came out of Mohammed's mouth are scary)

My best to all.




Edited by - joe on 14 March 2002  14:48:03

[andy]

I too agree with Adrin.
My intutive side told me at an early age not to subscribe to anything I had a hard time believing.I never really understood at that age 7ish why christianity didnt hit home with me.The first thing that I did realize around the age of 12 however was that upon being told that I would go to hell should I not choose to follow christ was this:
God & street gangs follow the same rules," Fear and Obey or Pay".After studying history I was fast to realize that christianity was in fact the largest gang that ever existed and were far more ruthless than any street gang around today.

Now,im only sharing my personal deterent.Not bashing,if taken that way I apoligize! In fact I am always curious about what people think on this subject and have never recieved a decent response on the matter.I have noted that a lot of the christians that i've know came from big christain familys.What a child will believe,imagine what would have happend had our parents never told us that Santa Cluas was'nt real?Would the bible be as big today if it were not forced upon people in the past?

Opposed to my past of disscarding the bibles theroy I now firmly believe that a bunch of of o.b.ers were to be credited for what would become the basis of the book.Thats my take.However I know little about the bible and upon getting Daniels view of things have to say im approching it with a more open mind in the sense of trying to understand rather than building up my defense against it.

BTW,last night I dreamed that I was looking up the LDS web site provided by daniel else where.[I plan to check it out this weekend.]

I am in know way saying im right and the christians are wrong,I believe no one person will ever have all the facts/truth.This however a very interesting subject and so long as everyone keeps an open mind im seeing better potencial for understanding on both side.

Much peace,Andy   (:

[Adrian]

Greetings Andy and everyone!

Andy, Yes, I have to agree with you on this.

I rejected christianity at the age of 7 years old also - it just made no sense at all to me, and as I was also in interested in astronomy, astrophysics and evolution, it made even less sense to me. But above all of that, I intuitively *knew* that I *had* to lead my life in discovery of my *own* Spiritual truth, and that is more or less what I have done ever since.

One thing that I am extremely unhappy about is that in Britain, schools compulsorily teach christianity as if it is an incontrovertible fact, rather than part of middle eastern history and geography. Children are taught that the bible is absolutely beyond question, and that all it contains is factual rather than open to historical and philosophical interpretation. Anyone child who dares dispute these teachings is treated very adversly. I know, because, at the age of 7 years, I openly stated to my religious education teacher, who also happened to be the village Church of England Vicar, that I could not accept what was being taught as fact. That caused a real storm I can tell you

But this is a serious situation - children are impressionable, and look to their teachers and parents for the absolute truth in all things. Children are being seriously misled at best and for what - in an effort to keep the christian church and religion alive no doubt.

Fortunately, my three sons aged 11, 10 and nearly 9 years, have also totally rejected christianity of their own accord. I have not sought to influence them in any way whatsoever, because, as I did at their ages, they also study such things as the big bang theory, evolution etc., (and even carry books on these subjects to read in the car on the way to school), and can see the religious teachings for what they are. They dare not say anything at school however - the head teacher is a devout practicing christian methodist, and would not approve of such dissent. My eldest boy is already following a high spiritual path, and follows Astral projection and many other spiritual possibilities.

But what sort of educational system seeks to deny a child the right to their own spiritual path at such a very young and highly impressionable age - a path they will be following throughout this incarnation, and throughout all future incarnations?

Children should always be taught the facts and facts alone, and never be subjected to such religious dogma. They should be encouraged to discover their own truths about who God (i.e. The Divine, The One) as the creator and master of the universe and his heirrarchy really are, and their fundamental cosmic realities in this multi-dimensional, spiritual universe we are priveledged to be an integral part of, and of all other beings of all types on *all* planes and dimensions of existence everywhere and everywhen.

Daniel: I respect your faith and dedication to LDS, notwithstanding the fact I don't know much about your religion. You are clearly very sincere in your beliefs, and LDS does seem somewhat more enlightened and spiritually aware than many religions. I don't know who Joseph Smith was, but clearly he was a great person, and with many characteristics of the great spiritual leaders, and was apparently, like some of them was prepared to die to convey his message. But let me ask you this question - if you have, or will have children - will you teach them that LDS is THE only way and bring them up accordingly, or will you present them with the facts about ALL possible spiritual paths, and let them determine which spiritual path is right for them?

Best regards,

Adrian.

[PeacefulWarrior]

Adrian:  In regards to your question about how I will bring my children up.  First off, let me start off by analyzing what you said about your own children.  It sounds like they are taking the same path as you, and no doubt your example and what you believe, or don't believe, has had a huge impression upon them...it's inevitable.  

I will never force my children to believe anything, and what they choose to believe it up to them because they are seperate, individual beings...given to me to raise by God, but I attend church once a week and my children will too.  At church we testify of the things we have come to know, and at home we teach that there is a God, we are His children, He loves us and He wants us to return to Him.  We also teach that Jesus Christ is His son and our brother.  So, I guess the bottom line is that my children will be brought up under these beliefs, but at the age of eight is when they will have decide for themsleves.  In order to be baptized in the LDS church, a child must wait until the age of eight and then have an "interview" in which he or she is is asked if they want to be baptized.  

This might seem too young, and so of course they are going to say yes.  But this isn't always the case, if they are not sure or don't seem ready then they are encouraged to wait.  I don't think any other Christian churches do like wise.


Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

[Adrian]

Greetings Daniel!

In your enthusiasm, you posted the same message as a reply three times - I have deleted the first two postings as they are identical to the final one. I assume it was a mistake on your part.

But please read your own post, you speak thus:

quote:
...but I attend church once a week and my children will too. At church we testify of the things we have come to know, and at home we teach that there is a God, we are His children, He loves us and He wants us to return to Him. We also teach that Jesus Christ is His son and our brother.

This to me is religious indoctrination and dogma, every bit as much as christianity, as you are still presenting these things to children as if they are facts rather than ideas or concepts.

I must stress, I would never, ever seek to deny people these rights to follow any path they choose, but what you say does highlight my point about influencing children, who, for the most part, are unlikely to go against the religion expected by their families.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[Mobius]

G,day all again on this 2000 year old debate, I must admit, it
hasnt degenerated into slanging matches as some bible debate sites have,so we are going all right so far by the looks of things.
To joe, I know Adrian is not LDS, & I trust & hope he didnt think
I did, the 1st & 2nd line of my post was to Adrian & the 3rd line on
was to anyone, but probably more Daniel.
I will tell you a little bit about my involvement with Christianity,
Kristos, Mr Ben Panthera.
My Mothers side of the family was devout, strict Christians, totally
& utterley giving their all to it.My cousin is a Christian priest &
my uncle is an LDS priest & up until I was 10 I was an altar boy.
I "know" what my cousin, uncle & the priests got up to, really thought
about & what their actions were.I,m not saying all are bad & do
the wrong thing by people, so many were & are just good people
wanting to do good but being used & lied to.
If you believe so much in these great men, why not do what they did.
Good things for people, without a book, a set of guidelines, churches,
donations, Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests, Rabbi,s .
It should be something that comes naturally, not forced or designed
for the benefit of a few at the expense of many.
The thing is Daniel, when I read your posts I get a bit frustrated, but not angry, you see my name is Daniel also & when I read your
posts it reminds me of me, 20 years ago & I just wish the present
me could tell that past me to go & read a critics opinion of what
I,m involved in.The courtroom is Life & you are the Judge, are you
going to let one side come in & tell you what the story is?

All the best on your journeys

Mobius

[Rob]

Interesting debate,
I was brought up on Christianity, sunday to church every week, but now though I may basically hold many christian viewpoints, I would consider myself to be more of a universal religion - I appreciate something in all of them, and I trust that the ones I am not so familiar with (yet) also have good teachings.
My point is this: If someone is brought up well, and not encouraged to have a closed mind, then that is the way they actually grow up. Past that point, if they are aligned to the spiritual, they will discover all these things themselves. My father is a strong catholic, my mother protestant, both relatively closed minded to all things like OBE, but it does not really matter. If someone is the type to find their own way, they will, nomatter what religion they were taught at an early age - although they may appreciate that way more that others, this is simply because they know more about it;. What is important is the attitudes they were encouraged to hold, religion in that respect for most kids is very, very insignificant.
Further, I believe to follow dogmatically a certain religion is good for some people (eg my dad) because it provides them with comfort in the ritual, and they are not looking for anything else, happy as he is (bte my father was not brought up in that religion, he changed at about 20)

have had a few drinks, hope this makes some sense

peacus

Rob

Edited by - Inguma on 15 March 2002  02:58:57

[Mobius]

Hi again all, just thought I,d post one of my favourite sites on
this excellent subject, well its not just this topic but anyway
check it out, its a summary from Laurence Gardiners book
" Bloodline of the holy grail ".
http://www.nexusmagazine.com/holygrail.html

All the best on your journeys

Mobius

[PeacefulWarrior]

I like what everyone has to say on this subject, it's all very interesting and enlightening.  I like what Inguma said near the end...if one is brought up in a belief system that is positive, although you might feel it is restrictive, if the belief system promotes free thinking and "presonal revelation" as does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, then individuals have the opportunity to grow and make their own decisions.  

I personally feel in a world like this, especially with individuals and organizations having as much influence as they do through media channels, etc.  I know that we must teach our children what we have found to be true...ideas and beliefs that help us to grow and know who we truly our..to understand our potential, etc.  If not they will be eaten alive by violence, pornography, etc.  Trust me when I say that I have been there and back.  I have seen the abyss and I have seen the light...and what I choose isn't dogma, it isn't ignorance...it's something that I KNOW and I have EXPERIENCED.  I hold nothing against others who don't follow the precepts by which I live, and I don't force my beliefs on anyone, that would be evil (I really expound on that).  

Trust me, it's tough, even within my own community, to be a truly open minded Christian.  It's tough in this world, for I feel unaccepted by most Christians who don't regard LDS as Christians because we are really far to the left in comparison to their largely dogmatic beliefs, and then of course amongst mystics and spiritualists I am frowned upon as if I were some niave child who bursted into a conversation which I should know nothing about.

Peace!

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

[Adrian]

Greetings Daniel!

I do respect and admire your stance, believe me - because it is very sincere. I do find the LDS church somewhat of an enigma from what you have kindly taken the time to teach  us about it here in this forum - but that is not to judge it in any way - I suspect its congregation are more devout and sincere in their beliefs and practices than many catholics, protestants etc. are.

But a couple of things that I must point out. Yes - we have a duty as parents to protect them from, and teach our children about, *every day* dangers of life - of which there are all too many at every turn.

But from a religious or spiritual standpoint, the only truth is ones own truth - you say:

quote:
I know that we must teach our children what we have found to be true...ideas and beliefs that help us to grow and know who we truly our..to understand our potential, etc.

But what is true for you, might not be true for them, and therefore you are unwittingly influencing their real truth from an early age, and which it might take them many years to turn about, if their truth turns out to be along an alternative spiritual path.

The only way to approach this matter with children (in my opinion) is to point them in the right direction of where to discover the truth for themselves, without putting forward any pro-forma opinion, and definitely without compelling them to attend any church where they are saturated with the truth of others as if it were the absolute and only truth. This is why I object strongly to religion, any religion being taught in schools as if it were every bit as much of a fact as math, history, science, geography etc..

Let them read about astrophysics, evolution, metaphysics, Magic etc., and when they are old enough let them read the Kabbalah (no mean task), Hermetics, Buddhism and so on. BTW - I am not a Buddhist and could not become one - it is not my own path - but I do have a particular respect for Buddha and Buddhism generally.

Our duty as parents is to facilitate the truth, not indoctrinate our children.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[Rob]

Adrian, I agree with what you have to say in theory - that bringing children up under certain "pre-packaged" beliefs is restrictive, but not in practice. I expect you have your own personal reasons for holding your opinions, but I personally have never seen anyone who has been adversely affecting by religion. Some people are closed minded christians, but I seriously believe they would be closed minded people even if they were not brought up under the umbrella of organised religion. This is because quite simply, that is the mindstate most of humanity is in. People who go looking for their own way, like you, me, Daniel and most people here are rare, as is the way of society. Further, it is also possible to find people who are new age/mystic/claiming spiritual who are just as bad at being closed minded.
Lastly, I would like to say that although everyone has to find their own way, for some this way is organised religion. There is a chatholic priest/bishop (pretty high up, Mon Seignor?) person I know from back at the church in the falklands, who is the truly the most spiritual and holy man I have ever met. Nobody I have met in person comes close, he practically shines. He is a true Christian, who follows the catholic "dogma" (though he is relatively low and relaxed for a catholic), but I just have to think, look what he managed to accomplish with it.
So for someone who is aligned to set religion, it may well not matter if they are brough up in christian/buddhist/hindu because a) children reflect their parents b)if this is their way, they will follow it, c)if not (like me) they will go looking elsewhere and possibly d) the main organised religion in a country reflects the mindstate of that country (cause or effect? Both I reckon, symbiotic growth)
The only thing which I abhor is closed mindedness, which set religion does not have to be. Acceptance that other people (friends, family, neighbours) are different to you overcomes all these things.

[Adrian]

Greetings Inguma!

I hear and respect what you say.

But you can take it from me, that children generally believe what they are taught by their parents, teachers and others in authority they look to for the truth.

In school and church they are taught religion as fact, and not in the context of ancient history or science.

If children are taught something is so, then they accept it instinctively as factual, and "unlearning" it many years later is very difficut - indeed most people either cannot, or more likely find it more convenient not to even try - they just accept the dogma.

My children have asked me whether they should take any notice of the religion they are taught at school. I have told them that it is "real" to the people who teach it, and they are sincere in their beliefs, but that is all they are - the beliefs of those people, and they must be respected. I tell them to listen respectfully to what is being said. But they also have all the opportunities they need at all times to study astrophysics, evolution, metaphysics etc. (my eldest studies all of those avidly as well as Astral projection, TK etc,), but not to formulate any opinion, or decide upon a true spiritual path (if they want to pursue such a path), until they are old enough to understand all of the issues involved to the extent they can be understood, and progress from there. At the final analysis, I would unconditionally support whatever spiritual path they chose to take.

But I see so many school children who are sadly unquestioning religious copies of their parents. They wear crucifix's, and ridicule other children who do not, or say they do not believe in christianity etc.. Their parents are generally very biggoted sadly, as are many teachers. Fortunately, my children are like me - we do not bother what other people think of us - it is not important - they have their lives to lead, and we have our own.

It is a difficult issue I know, but I have to say that christianity uses schools, and the promise of heaven, or threat of hell, to propogate itself and keep itself alive.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[PeacefulWarrior]

Adrian- where are you from?  I believe you mentioned it before, but I don't remember...anyway, here in America the schools are not influenced very much, if at all by Christianity.  It is aparent, however, that this is not true for the school system your children attend and I believe this definetly colors your ideology...much of which I agree with.

I lived in Italy (la bella italia!) for two years of my young life and I believe there don't exist too many other countries with the same genre of systematic dogma in the world.  The people there are frankly pathetic in regards to their belief system (no disrespect to the people in general, I LOVE ITALY AND ITALIANS--I speak italian and am always visiting Italy in my dreams, if you know what I mean)...but the Catholic church rules there, in every aspect of life.  THe people are blinded and they suffer horibbly from the effects of spiritual death.

I point this out to allow you to understand that I understand exactly where you are coming from.  Free agency, the chance to choose, is vital ofr an individual to find truth.  I think our real debate comes down to whether an objective TRUTH exists, and I believe it does.  I also believe that before a spirit comes to this world and is incarnated in a physical body, he or she chooses the destination and those spirits who will act as "parents" (they are not always the biological parents).  The debate, then, is whether objective truth does indeed exist and whether or not this life is a continuation of a previous life, with the circumstances of this life being an extension of the previous life...which I hold is the case.


Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.


Edited by - daniel on 15 March 2002  19:12:52

[Adrian]

Greetings Daniel!

The left hand column of each post gives the user name and location of the poster.

But I reside in the Isle of Man, which is a seperate country in the British Isles.

Actually, we have the longest running system of government in the World, dating back over 1000 years, founded by the Vikings. The Island is an very mystical place, with a very interesting history indeed, which I won't go into right now.

But the Isle of Man follows a very similar educational system to the UK where I was raised, in Central England. Here, as there, "religious education" (RE) and "scripture" (christian religious history) are mandatory. Also mandatory is morning "assembly" where children are required to participate in christian prayer and hymn singing. Very often, as is the case with my children, the religious teachers are actually christian ministers and who have a particular interest in recruiting for the church. If one challenges this, one might be looked upon as some sort of blasphemous heathen, who is booking his ticket to hell.

As I said before, you speak alot of sense, and you are clearly very sincere in your beliefs and I respect that. But you are, after all, evangelising for the LDS church, which, in part, proves my point about religious indoctrination generally. I don't have any problem with you stating your beliefs and views here by the way, it provides a useful balance, but I am sure you can see what I am saying in general terms.

At the very final analysis, the LDS and its congregation, are actively engaged in recruiting for your church, just as many other religious groups do - I am sure you know the ones I mean - the ones that arrive in pairs on the doorstep with their messages

I am saying that children should be presented with all the facts (without the dogma), and the information sources for all spiritual paths, and allowed to formulate their own truth over however many years it takes them to do so. It might take a lifetime or many lifetimes.

BTW - am I right in saying that the LDS or Mormon church require their congregation to compulsarily contribute a percentage (10%?) of their income to the church? Forgive me if I am wrong, but if I am right then that does add a definite commercial motivation.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[Mobius]

Hi everyone, Adrian from my experience you cant be any more right.
I hope to be going to England this year, so if I,ve got time I,ll
check out the Isle of Man, I love mysteries.
My mother is now Buddhist & tried to convert me to it, it didnt
work but I,ve still got one book called "Life, an enigma, a
precious jewel" by Daisaku Ikeda, a good little book, I dont mind
the Buddhists.
When it comes to any religions though, they are a lot like Amway,
a few people a the top telling people how great it is & they
can acheive it too! if they just rally around their cause & pump
lots of time, money & energy into recruiting others.
The difference between Amway & Religions is that religions dont
pay tax, so 1 guess who gets all the tax free money?

All the best on your journeys

P.S did any of you read my link on my last post, whats your spin on
that?

Mobius

[PeacefulWarrior]

Yes, Adrian you are correct...as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS I pay ten percent of all my income to the tithes of the church, and happily.  It is not mandatory, but it is definetly encouraged.  We have beautiful church buildings, temples, a complex missionary program as well as one of the most efficient forms of church welfare, oh yeah and a world wide charity organization.  The money is meticulously managed and the "leaders" of the church, which anyone can become because there aren't any politics, and do not take any of the money collected from tithes for themselves (which is probably hard to believe).  These are modest men and, for example, all reside in the homes they had before they became leaders.  Many gave up successful private businesses or medical careers to do what they do and because no one in the church is paid clergy, all members have responsibilities.  My fiance's father is a Bishop and the poor man comes home from work and goes to the church five days a week to help troubled youth and talk with people about their problems in general...and he recieves NOTHING but spiritual blessings for his calling.  I think one important facet of organized religion is that if you follow something with all your heart, it gives you the chance to interact with others and share their burdens.

Well, I would like to write more but I gotta run for now...
See ya!
-Dan

Grace by grace, principle by principle, we strive towards perfection.  

Il mio Maestro e' colui che ha vissuto la vita perfetta, il stesso che ha datto la sua vita per noi.

[Adrian]

Greetings Daniel!

I think we have now said all that can usefully be said for now regarding your LDS church, belief systems, religions, teachings etc.. I understand your position, and I respect it.

But at the very final analysis, Bhikku sums it up perfectly when he said, in response to your first post in this thread:

"It is going to come down to facing yourself in the end, no one else"

Before you can advance, spiritually, along your own true path, and your ultimate destiny, you have to know yourself totally, absolutely and honestly, and without compromise.

Even if a person believes they are decent, and they often are for the most part, it is not very difficult at all to delve deeper and deeper in critical self-analysis, to reveal the very many, often slight, often greater imperfections of ones individuality of self.

We need to go all the way to the very deepest depths of our own personalities and individualities, in order to discover every single imperfection, while being brutally honest with ones self, and disgard those imperfections absolutely completely and forever.

Only then can we embark upon and progress along the road to absolute spiritual truth and ultimately individual spiritual perfection and destiny. Such a spiritual path could take a great many lifetimes in total to fulfill, so it is best to start now.

The fact is, in summary, you need to look to, and know yourself before, and even instead of looking to, and knowing your church, in your case the LDS.

Best regards,

Adrian.

[Rob]

Adrian I want to reply to your last post,
You seem to be treating all church experiences as a bad thing, when infact it sounds like the LDS church operates in much the same way as this forum - we all have our own beliefs, and present them and our experiences to other members in the hope that we may all learn something and grow from it.
And you cannot have noticed that Christianity has some very good points about it? I tell my parents (most!) of my beliefs, also how I try and live to be a better person every day, and they still think I am a good Christian. I expect you read lots of interesting mystic/etc books? Christianity also revolves around the reading of one very special book, which whether treated as fact, fiction or something completely different still allows deep and often profound insight. And really, it is difficult to take the bible completely literally because so much of it contradicts itself. OK, so many people may not know this, because they have been brought up to believe the good book as factual, but generally the people who go through life believing this are the same who have never recieved any real spiritual calling - if they did they would discover such things themselves ("seek first the kingdom of heaven and all these things shall be added unto you." said Jesus). So I stick to my above point, that the type of person is what determines spiritual growth, which may be affected slightly by church, but I think we will have to agree to disagree on how much. Like I said, I used to know many church goers, at my age the were normal people, the older ones were all very caring, and the serious - often evangelical - ones at uni are very sweet, lovely people, who seem to try and live life to the highest principles they know. But evidently you have different experiences. Heh, I usually keep all my beliefs hidden from the average christain, in much the same way as I do from the average guy on the street.

However all said I do loudly applaude you for the way you are bringing up your children! I just hope you are teaching them to see the good things in stuff like christianity. As someone on this forum brilliantly pointed out, in live always focus on the dunut, never the hole. I would also add that the hole is a function of the ring and in a way vice versa, if that makes any sense!
Wishing everyone all the best

Oh Adrian, one last thing about your children, how much success have they had? I saw this because I believe that children are naturally spritual and with lots of other interesting abilities, but we forget these things as we grow older and don't use the right faculties, or use the wrong ones (I am still trying to realise some of the things I remember saying when I was younger!). So I would be very interested to hear what happens if children are encouraged along the right lines of spiritual expansion. You say your eldest is already following a high spiritual path - would you mind expanding a little? Thanks in advance!