Heisenberg's uncertainty principle

[bomohwkl]

I read somewhere in the NEW SCIENTIST article that a scientist has sucessfully break the Heisenberg's uncertainty principle using the so called weak measurement. The results are bizzare indeed. The overlapping particle and antiparticle don't anhilate each other and that region of space of two overlapping particle has probability of occurence NEGATIVE one.

[beav31is]

You are supposed to take the absolute value of those probability waves (+1). Time machines will probably result from that discovery, assuming my understanding of quantum time is correct.

[bomohwkl]

Probability of occurence not the wave function of schrodinger equation where when you multiple the wave function with its complex conjugate, it gives you probability of occurence. Hope you understand the physics jargons.[]

[James S]

Shroedingers cat was definitely DEAD!
He left it in the box too long and forgot to feed it.


This pointless thought was brough to you today by -
James.


But seriously folks...

The principal:
"The more precisely the POSITION is determined,the less precisely
the MOMENTUM is known in this instant and vice versa"

This is the dude that pretty well started the whole quantum physics thing.

Mind you, it is from working around this theory that the concept of ENTANGLED PAIRS was discovered which goes as follows:

"when two particles come into contact with one another, they can become "entangled." In an entangled state, both particles remain part of the same quantum system so that whatever you do to one of them affects the other one in a predictable, domino-like fashion....in principle, entangled particles might serve as "transporters" of sorts. By introducing a third "message" particle to one of the entangled particles, one could transfer its properties to the other one, without ever measuring those properties."
- Scientific American, December 29, 1997  

This is freaky stuff!!

James.

[Graupel]

This principal is interestingly discussed in a Stargate SG-1 episode entitled "prophecy".

The Goa'uld Niirti (sp?) altered Jonas Quinn's brain and developed a tumor made of tightened brain connections which would allow him to have precognitive abilities.  Major Carter did have some interesting points involving pre-cognitive abilities:

1.)  According to Neutonian (sp?) physics, yes.. if you could know the position and velocity of every particle in the universe at any given moment, you could accurately predict all of their interactions over any given time.

2.)  But quantum mechanics blows it out of the water.  According to the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, it is impossible to look at a subatomic particle and know both where it is and where it is going at the same time, the more accurately you fix its position the more uncertain you make its velocity and visa versa.

[timeless]

Awww! But careful guys!  Part of Hiesenberg's Uncertainty Principle is not due to true physics. It is because of how we measure things.  Our measurments actually mess things up....that was what the 8-ball discussion in the original post for this thread was getting at.  A better explanation of how measurement upsets a particles natural state or course can be found at the site below:  
http://www.totse.com/en/fringe/fringe_science/zeno.html

Our measurements can generate interesting behaviour -- even useful behaviour.  Different measurment techniques are generating different behaviours.  But we are only playing with energy not truly measuring its natural state, nature or course.

The big work in the area of physics today is the attempt to find the least disturbing measurment technique.  The American government is spending a wack of cash in this area.  When a non-obtrusive measurement technique is found the HUGE discoveries or leaps in understanding will be made.  Not only in physics but I believe all this will spill over into the astral and beyond.

Once we better understand the 'true nature' (get a pseudo-baseline) of energy we can better understand how are measurements are influencing it.  This is where we move into the area of much greater understanding of how WE influence energy and matter....do you see where I am going?

There are flaws with quantum mechanics as the founding fathers were well aware of and argued perfusely over.  The excerpt below came from the following website.
http://www.aip.org/history/heisenberg/p09.htm
**************************************************
Not everyone agreed with the new interpretation, or with Born and Heisenberg's statement about future work. Einstein and Schrödinger were among the most notable dissenters. Until the ends of their lives they never fully accepted the Copenhagen doctrine [the foundation of quantum mechanics]. Einstein was dissatisfied with the reliance upon probabilities. But even more fundamentally,  he believed that nature exists independently of the experimenter, and the motions of particles are precisely determined. It is the job of the physicist to uncover the laws of nature that govern these motions, which, in the end, will not require statistical theories. The fact that quantum mechanics did seem consistent only with statistical results and could not fully describe every motion was for Einstein an indication that quantum mechanics was still incomplete.
*****************************************

Best Regards,
timeless[]

[JoWo]

Hi, I am "the new kid on the block". Adrian was so nice to introduce me, my website www.quantum-metaphysics.com and my book "Understanding the Grand Design". I believe that this Heisenberg uncertainty principle discussion goes right to the heart of how we view reality. Our scientists tend to view reality as if our material world of particles and waves is the "real reality" and the "behind-the-scene" effects of nonlocality and probabilities are some mysterious part of it.  I postulate that it is the other way around, that the "real reality" is a multi-dimensional environment, an environment with more than three, perhaps infinite dimensions. Our senses cannot perceive this reality because they are limited to three dimensions.  It is like listening to a symphony when we can hear only three tones. Once we adopt this point of view, the seemingly mysterious riddles such as the double-slit experiment, the nonlocal interconnection of entangled particles, and the Heisenberg uncertainty principle become quite plausible.  That's what my website and my book are about.

[Greytraveller]

Hallo all. []
My understanding is that Heisenberg needed his Uncertaintly Principle to account for the fact that a particular photon could Not be measured as a Particle And a Wave[?] That was the double slit experiment that JoWo mentioned.
Photons are elementary particles of matter than have mass and also have a wave function (motion = energy) Yet scientists found it was impossible to measure a single photon as both particle and wave. The more that is known about its particle aspect the less that is known about its wave function (and vice versa)??
Also the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle Was the Mainstay of Quantum Physics for several decades after 1927 but recently it is gradually being supplanted by other theories[?][?]

[bomohwkl]

This kind of things have become soo METAPHYSICS. The PHENOMENON of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle is NOT due to MEASUREMENT, it is the very NATURE of the universe. And it is true that GOD DOESN'T PLAY DICE as Einstein said.The observed uncertainty might be due to the very lack of understanding of the universe.Tom suggested that the observed uncertainty is due to SPREAD SPECTRUM INFORMATION TRANSFER of the universe, which I think is quite pausible.
For more information check http://nujournal.net/choice.html

Something I really don't like about 'newage' is MISUSE of quantum physics.So many claims of 'newage' 'hypothesis' is so obvious wrong (as I am a physicist and I can recognize it quite easyly).Quantum physics has been used to "substantiate" lies and misinformation in situations where application of rigorous research methods of experimental psychology etc. would reveal the false claims made by so called spiritual entrepeneurs (who make large amounts of money on people`s stupidity by selling their products/wisdom/services etc.)

[vikram88]

Now Heisenberg's Uncertainity principle states that even if we know how to calculate anything with pinpoint accuracy we cannot measure the position and momentum of a point particle at any instant. This is because when we put light to actually observe the particle then we may come to know about it's position but as the photons will change the momentum of the particle so we cannot measure momentum with accurace and same vice versa.

So Heisenberg finally concluded that for any point particle we cannot calculate it's exact position and momentum using whatsoever means.

[vikram88]

Ok, now I have an experiment that can actually defy Heisenberg's principle that "For any given point particle we cannot measure  the exact value of position and momentum using whatsoever means".

Here it goes.

There is a system which contains two combined point particle at origin. Due to their internal energy they explode into to equal halves. Thus by Newton's Law that momentum is conserved the particles will move in opposite direction with same velocity. The Velocity will not change as they are in vacuum. When a fair distance is covered we throw light and measure the position of one particle(say X1). So other particles position X2= -X1. Now simultaneously we measure the velocity of the second particle(say V2). So we also get to know to velocity of particle one i.e. V1= -V2.

So we have calculated the momentum and position of a particle simultaneously, which Heisenberg said cannot be done. So it violates Heisenberg's Principle.

Even Heisenberg was not able to answer this experiment which Einstein proposed.

[JoWo]

Wouldn't the measurement on one particle mess up the measurement on the other because the two particles are entangled?

Jo.

[vikram88]

JoWo, the particles had exploded and seperated apart into two equal halves and are moving in opposite directions. Therefore they are not entangled now.

Cool Brain Teaser isn't it...[8D]

[beavis]

If you could split a particle, you still have lots of problems before you can measure. The combination had a velocity before it split. Add velocity/direction X to one and -X to the other. Even if you knew the exact position and speed of one half-particle, the only thing you know about the other particle is that its moving farther away. An other problem is it could split the energy unevenly or into different sized particles.

The only way to beat the uncertainty principle is with a MENTAL measurement.

[JoWo]

vikram88,
I was thinking of the Alain Aspect experiment which demonstrated that two photons coming from the same quantum event are still entangled, meaning that they are coupled to each other, even though they have sped away from each other with the speed of light.  This was the decisive test of nonlocality.

[vikram88]

Beavis, the particle system was at rest initially. Even if the article system was moving, we know that the second particle is moving away. We also know that the relative velocity is equal to that of the initial velocity as momentum is conserved. Therefore if we know the position of a particular particle at a given time, then simultanoeusly for the same time we can calculate the exact position of the other particle. SIMPLE!!!

JoWo, is the entanglement true for only photons or all system of particles?

[JoWo]

vikram88, I am not aware of an entanglement demonstration of the Alain Aspect type for other subatomic particles.  However, the principle of nonlocality is generally accepted in quantum physics.  Even the double slit experiment implies that the electron can exist at more than one place simultaneously, otherwise it wouldn't interfere with itself.  Quantum METAphysics assumes that our 3-D environment is a subset of a higher, multi-dimensional reality where the quantum events occur.  Our view of these events with our limited 3D range can create the illusion of separation where none exists in 4D or higher.
David Bohm, the outstanding quantum physicist of his time, compared this situation with observing a fish in a tank with two TV cameras from different directions. We see the two different TV images in 2D but they come from the same 3D object.  Thus our observed separation is only an illusion.

[vikram88]

You mean the 4th Dimension might be the Astral?

[beavis]

I dont think dimensions exist at all. What we interpret as dimensions are lots of thoughts connected in a way to look like dimensions. They could easily make a path in space that contradicts the idea of dimensions.

vikram88, that might work if position really existed. Part of the error is caused by that.

[JoWo]

It all depends on the point of view.  Looking down from the highest "Whole" of the universe, where everything is united in one undivided "nonlocal" Entity, no dimensions exist.  This is because no separations exist at that level. Everything and everyone is included in the One, so much so that distinctions of different dimensions make no sense – at that level.  This is why religions talk about God's unconditional Love, because nothing and no one is excluded or "discriminated".  

However, we perceive only a rather small portion of total reality.  Humankind has settled into a pattern of distinguishing four basic environmental dimensions, 3 space and one time.  However this system ignores already vast regions of mental activity.  Clearly, "thought" is a dimension that transcends our 3-D + time.  Nobody can claim that thought does not exist, but humankind is not calling it a 4th dimension of our environment.  Beyond thought, total reality has untold additional aspects that are still unknown to most of us, and it is impossible to agree on a "standard nomenclature" for the invisible aspects of reality, and philosophers don't agree on a system.
Every time we drop a major misconception of total reality, we perceive a "new dimension".  In other words, the concept of dimensions is a human invention that helps us cope with the immensity of reality, but ultimate reality has no dimensions, which is synonymous with "infinite" dimensions if we want to hang on to the concept of dimensions.

P.S.  I am logging off for a week.

[beavis]

I dont know if holographic universe theory is correct, but it is similar to what I know about the paranormal.

Yes dimensions are an easy approximation to A SMALL PART of whats really there, but since I know they are wrong, I can use that info to explain why ideas based on dimensions can never be more than approximations.

[JoWo]

Yes, beavis, I agree that none of our human concepts, such as "dimensions," can explain the totality of "what's really there".  Only a total spiritual Awakening can do this, and such experience cannot be communicated.  Nevertheless, I believe that we will always try to explain reality because we want to understand it.  Therefore I think that we need concepts such as "dimensions" to communicate how we experience our environment, even though this environment is only a small part of the Whole Reality.

[timeless]

I wanted to share with you the best explanation of Heisenberg's uncertainty principle I have seen thus far.  Thanks Todd!
Here is the website the below excerpt is from:
http://www-theory.chem.washington.edu/~trstedl/quantum/quantum.html#Heisenberg

**************************************************
The Heisenberg uncertainty principle

People are familiar with measuring things in the macroscopic world around them. Someone pulls out a tape measure and determines the length of a table. A state trooper aims his radar gun at a car and knows what direction the car is traveling, as well as how fast. They get the information they want and don't worry whether the measurement itself has changed what they were measuring. After all, what would be the sense in determining that a table is 80 cm long if the very act of measuring it changed its length!

At the atomic scale of quantum mechanics, however, measurement becomes a very delicate process. Let's say you want to find out where an electron is and where it is going (that trooper has a feeling that any electron he catches will be going faster than the local speed limit). How would you do it? Get a super high powered magnifier and look for it? The very act of looking depends upon light, which is made of photons, and these photons could have enough momentum that once they hit the electron they would change its course! It's like rolling the cue ball across a billiard table and trying to discover where it is going by bouncing the 8-ball off of it; by making the measurement with the 8-ball you have certainly altered the course of the cue ball. You may have discovered where the cue ball was, but now have no idea of where it is going (because you were measuring with the 8-ball instead of actually looking at the table).

Werner Heisenberg was the first to realize that certain pairs of measurements have an intrinsic uncertainty associated with them. For instance, if you have a very good idea of where something is located, then, to a certain degree, you must have a poor idea of how fast it is moving or in what direction. We don't notice this in everyday life because any inherent uncertainty from Heisenberg's principle is well within the acceptable accuracy we desire. For example, you may see a parked car and think you know exactly where it is and exactly how fast it is moving. But would you really know those things exactly? If you were to measure the position of the car to an accuracy of a billionth of a billionth of a centimeter, you would be trying to measure the positions of the individual atoms which make up the car, and those atoms would be jiggling around just because the temperature of the car was above absolute zero!

Heisenberg's uncertainty principle completely flies in the face of classical physics. After all, the very foundation of science is the ability to measure things accurately, and now quantum mechanics is saying that it's impossible to get those measurements exact! But the Heisenberg uncertainty principle is a fact of nature, and it would be impossible to build a measuring device which could get around it.
**************************************