Higgs Boson Particle Discovered

[Greytraveller]

Greetings all
On July 4 scientists at CERN announced that they had finally 'discovered' the long sought for and elusive Higgs Boson particle (also known as the "God particle"). According to these scientists this discovery Will fundamentally change the nature of science and may one day allow for space travel at near the speed of light.
Here is an article (from Coasttocoastam.com)
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/07/05/higgs-boson-find-could-make-light-speed-travel-possible-scientists-hope/
Any reaction to this from anyone?

Sincerely  
Grey

[Xanth]

Well see, there's a small problem.  They actually haven't "discovered" anything yet.  They've found "evidence" only which supposedly supports the concept which Dr Higgs put forth regarding the Higgs Boson particle, but they haven't actually observed one yet.

The problem here is that all of this feels so forced... am I the only one here who feels like they're trying so hard to put the square data into the round hole?  I don't know too much about this, but that's just the feeling that I get from it.  I think if they don't find the higgs boson, they will have wasted 40+ years of research.  At this point, they *HAVE TO* find it... it would be completely unacceptable to them to not find it.  They, literally, have no choice at this point, it would be the largest scientific upset of the century if they don't.

This is why all this fanfare seems "forced". 

I'll wait until they actually "observe" the particle before throwing any parties.  LoL

[Stillwater]

The way I understand it, the partlicle can't really be seen per se, because it exists for less than a millionth of a second... what they think they found is the afterparty the particle was expected to leave after departing.

The other pretty funny thing about the whole situation, is while they are fairly sure they have found it this time, even Higgs himself has this to say:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQ0FwzyTVK4&feature=player_embedded


Essentially he is asked what technological breakthroughs to expect, and he just says hasn't the faintest idea of what you could do with a particle that is so short lived it almost doesn't exist.

People have speculated this particle, because it helps define the mass of other particles, can be used to "hack" new particles into existence that have certain masses and electromagnetic properties that we custom design to perform certain exotic tasks like hyper-efficient chemical processes, 2nd-order nanotechnology, and the projection of special fields of influence for things like space travel, manipulation of anti-matter, and advanced manufacturing of new materials, to give a few examples.

But anyone in a position to know is saying the thing exists for such a short time making use of it will be a challenge. Most physicists have more interest in the implications of the particle, rather than the particle's own uses.

[personalreality]

Gotta back up that they "think" they've found it.  they don't really know.

i guess that the allure of finding such a particle, even if practical use would be years away, is that it brings physicists one step close to finding the ultimate building block of which the universe is made.  that's why they call it the "god particle", because they think that this is it, the final piece.  i think that is the flaw in materialist science though.  i'm all about the infinite continuum/spectrum.  there is no fundamental piece.  once they nail this one down, another one will be theorized because of its discovery.  that's how it works in material science.  they won't find the fundamental nature of the universe at CERN.

that doesn't negate the potential technological uses (which would be years off like i said) though.  that would certainly be cool, but it's not gonna give them that ultimate answer that physicists seek.  for all the answers it provides, it will provide twice as many questions.  that's the way these things work. 

it's still cool though.

[Szaxx]

Hi,
Maybe a trip back into the history books may help them. Someone daring should send them a copy of Occult Chemistry.
Start shouting string theory about tiny helical things inside the atoms. And Hydrogen really is made of 18 counterparts not 2.
Video their reaction and send to YouTube. lol...

[Greytraveller]

Greetings
Xanth
Your point about the scientists actually Not finding anything yet is well made. And Yes I also feel that their confidence about this 'discovery' is very forced. I find it 'funny' that these scientists fall all over themselves in congratulating their success even though their work has never been scrutinized by anyone else or peer reviewed in any scientific publication. Yet these same scientist will 'debunk' any evidence of psychic abilities or paranormal activity even though that evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of such phenomena existing. 

Regards 
Grey

[Volgerle]

[Stookie_]

We all use products and computers and things that took science to create everyday. EVERY ONE OF US are part of a society that's built on science and innovation. Yes there is a lot of junk, but you can't generalize all of it. It's not that simple.

I think what gets me is the only time in my life I've seen people knock science like this is from christian fundamentalists that believe the earth is 5000 years old and dinosaurs never existed. Those people would still believe in a flat earth if it wasn't for science... and some people still think the earth is hollow. People that have been on this forum who are members of our group.

We ALL need to be open minded, no one has all the answers. (The scientists themselves don't like the term "God Particle"... it was said once or twice and became a media buzz-word.)

[Stillwater]

Indeed. It has been said many times, but it is important to understand the scientific method, and the social scientific hierarchy and its systems of acceptance and promotion are very separate things.

Unbiased empiricism is without a doubt one of the few tools that has provided us singlehandedly with every major technology, every breaktrhough of understanding, and has dispelled scores of superstitions and arbitrary beliefs.

The scientific community itself is another matter. It is full of indviduals with their own biases, their own agendas, and their own scores to settle for reasons of self interest.

And new and unorthodoxed ideas have a lot of inertia to overcome to be accepted by the community. The editors and publishers of the major research journals have tons of bias, and frown upon articles and logs which go against the current conventions of the day. If it were not for this, researchers like Charles Tart would have tons of funding, but then these things are very seasonal... the curiousity and willingness for acceptance was there in the atmosphere of the 70's, but since then the interest has waned, and with it the willingness toward openmindedness and funding as well.

There is science, and then there is "our science". Another name for "our science" is of course the "scientism" that most people are thinking of when they bemoan it.

Science is a powerful and near-supreme tool, but unfortunately it is also practiced by extremely partial individuals- you have to remember both come together before you condemn or over-praise "science".

[Xanth]

Greetings
Xanth
Your point about the scientists actually Not finding anything yet is well made. And Yes I also feel that their confidence about this 'discovery' is very forced. I find it 'funny' that these scientists fall all over themselves in congratulating their success even though their work has never been scrutinized by anyone else or peer reviewed in any scientific publication. Yet these same scientist will 'debunk' any evidence of psychic abilities or paranormal activity even though that evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of such phenomena existing. 

Regards 
Grey

Honestly, I believe it's entirely $$ motivated.
If this quest for the Higgs Boson doesn't pay off soon... they'll probably lose their funding.

[Szaxx]

Hi,
Good post Xanth.
Its always this way. R and D costs millions and joe public can't handle that cost.
Results have to be found or the funding stops.
Yes its biased. Without this funding theres nothing.
Catch 22.

[Barnowl]

I don't want to sound too stupid, but I don't understand this to be really honest.

What is so special about this particular particle? Havn't we discoved super-strings, and isn't that supposed to be the building blocks of matter? (or the quantum world, rather...) Or am I wayyy of track?

What am I missing? (Sorry if this is a really stupid question, just want to get my head around it, thats all!)

[Xanth]

I don't believe string theory has ever come close to be proven.  The problem, so I understand, is that there are too many assumptions holding it up.

The Higgs Boson is supposedly "THE" particle that gives other particles their mass.  According to scientists, no other particle can exist without the existence of the Higgs Boson.

You're just getting different theories mixed up. 

[KarmicBeats]

I hope they do not try to determine its mass, as that will shrink the planet to the size of a pea

[Szaxx]

Hi,
You know they will and heres how.
After they kick magnets they'll use a mass-sieve-device to cycle-a-tron to produce these god particles. Then the  filtration provided by the mass-sieve-device frees up these new things found while they weight for them to dissapear in one micro second.
Quaint!

[Barnowl]

it does all sound interesting...to be fair. The question is, how far will this go?

[Volgerle]

Imo, it's all reductionism at its best. All the time, they're looking only at bits and bytes instead of what these bits belong to (the computer or the whole software program). Then they will discover even smaller bits and bytes and microbits and microbytes, etc.... Mainstream science in a dead-end street. 

[Stookie_]

We don't know the implications yet. I see it as gaining a physical knowledge that goes in the book with the rest of what we know, and who knows how it's going to be used later? It might not be of any practical use for many years, but this is the type of stuff that gets us closer to teleportation and anti-gravity and other fictional stuff that could be a reality one day. I hate flying and want my teleporter!

[Stillwater]

Lol... what if the "you" on the other side of the telporter isn't you per se, but a clone with all of your memories?

My philosophy prof was convinced teleporation devices were not so much a means of traveling so much as a means of dying and cloning, haha.

[Szaxx]

Hey!
Too much TV. You two need grounding. Teleporter, ha.
I must FLY......


Couldn't resist.

[Stookie_]

Lol... what if the "you" on the other side of the telporter isn't you per se, but a clone with all of your memories?

My philosophy prof was convinced teleporation devices were not so much a means of traveling so much as a means of dying and cloning, haha.

In one of Orson Scott Card's books, when they teleported they basically went into Frank's F4 where their physical make-up is transferred into energy, then put back together at their destination in the physical. The downside was that you had to stay completely focused or you would accidentally bring back anything your mind created.

There was a post Frank made about things he had learned in F4 about the possibilities of teleportation and things like that. I tried for a long time to find it and never could. I'm 99% sure it didn't make it into Xanth's collection of posts.

Do I think I'll see teleportation in my lifetime? Possibly, who knows? When I was a kid I would have flipped out knowing the tech that would be available to me in 25 years.

[KarmicBeats]

With a teleporter your molecules would be broken down into a particle stream and then shot through a worm hole.  Since all the particles in your body are quantumly entangled with each other and your quantum phenomenalistic self (soul or consciousness),  I suspect that your consciousness will travel with you.  So I doubt it is dying and cloning.

In the case of teleporter duplicates I suspect that they end up in the exact same state of health as the original with one tiny difference, they're dead!  It may depend on the teleporter technology used.  Another possibility is that your consciousness splits off into two people.  This is something that happens all the time anyway, it is just that the duplicates (or counterparts as I like to call them) usually end up in other universes.  i.e I turn left and my counterpart turns right.

QUANTUM HUMOR

Your honer my client is not guilty, for the crime did not really occur until the police officer observed it.  It was the police officers observation that caused the crime.  Therefore the police officer is guilty and my client should be set free

[Stillwater]

With a teleporter your molecules would be broken down into a particle stream and then shot through a worm hole.  Since all the particles in your body are quantumly entangled with each other and your quantum phenomenalistic self (soul or consciousness),  I suspect that your consciousness will travel with you.  So I doubt it is dying and cloning.

In the case of teleporter duplicates I suspect that they end up in the exact same state of health as the original with one tiny difference, they're dead!  It may depend on the teleporter technology used.  Another possibility is that your consciousness splits off into two people.  This is something that happens all the time anyway, it is just that the duplicates (or counterparts as I like to call them) usually end up in other universes.  i.e I turn left and my counterpart turns right.

QUANTUM HUMOR

Your honer my client is not guilty, for the crime did not really occur until the police officer observed it.  It was the police officers observation that caused the crime.  Therefore the police officer is guilty and my client should be set free

Yes, this is the classic answer most Muslims and Christians use for the teleporter problem with respect to mind and identity. It is a fairly Aristotelian viewpoint.

My own gut feeling is that if rather than transporting yourself, you merely sent your data, and another you was built on the other side, I feel that you would both be conscious, and seperate entities. Since the you on the other side that was built is not your mind or persepctive, I would also reason that if you sent yourself your current self would die. Teleporters don't necessarily imply entangleement, but your argument is stronger in an entanglement system.

[NoY]

if you walk 5 feet forwards the body at the end is a different reality to the body at the start, at the same time,
so whats the difference,
its a "new you" every time you make a choice

:NoY:

[Stillwater]

Yeah, but in this discussion "you" also implies continuous perspective. I am not the person I was seconds ago, but I retained the same perspective as that person. The point is in the teleporter problems, that might not hold...