How to shed the junk

[Jonas K strand]

thank you everyone for sharing! i to were in this state where things were very funny and a few minutes later i were in hell, and then back again, and at both the places at he same time... and many other states ofcaurse. jihoo! really nice i thaught. something was really happning! but this turned to more and more bad emotions, i never had no breakthrough and now i just try to get rid of the bad emotions through various techniques- watching TV, listening to music, daydreaming etc. i suppose something went wrong for me... im sure its possible for me to just "do it" and sometimes i do, but most of the time i just run and hide, and i blame myself alot to. as i write this i feel so pathetic... being so sad. did something went wrong there?

please, if you think of something that could be of help (much on this thread have allready been) yes but, i think that what i try to say is that everything is up to me after all, but at the same time as its true its just another bad reason for me not to take advices.

this thread have really taken some interesting turns since the last time i read! its really in present tense... cool.
its so good to hear that others also feel fragile from this training!

/jonas

[jilola]

quote:but this turned to more and more bad emotions, i never had no breakthrough and now i just try to get rid of the bad emotions through various techniques- watching TV, listening to music, daydreaming etc. i suppose something went wrong for me... im sure its possible for me to just "do it" and sometimes i do, but most of the time i just run and hide, and i blame myself alot to. as i write this i feel so pathetic... being so sad. did something went wrong there?

Yep, sorry [] You are trying to deny 50% of what makes up what you perceive as you. Everyone, even the Ascended Masters(tm) have bad thoughts, disruptive impulses, vices and carp like that. The thing you need to remember is that you have the choice of which thoughts to express, which desires to follow and how you define who you are.
Trying to deny stuff is tantamount to acknowledging that they are what define you. For better of worse you have moments of saintly brilliance and moments of base #¤%&/.

Why not accept that you are capable of horrible things and extremely evil thoughts and behaviour and then go on to choose not to express those qualities in your life. Make it a mindful and conscious choice.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[BlackTalon]

quote:Originally posted by Jonas K strand

thank you everyone for sharing! i to were in this state where things were very funny and a few minutes later i were in hell, and then back again, and at both the places at he same time... and many other states ofcaurse. jihoo! really nice i thaught. something was really happning! but this turned to more and more bad emotions, i never had no breakthrough and now i just try to get rid of the bad emotions through various techniques- watching TV, listening to music, daydreaming etc. i suppose something went wrong for me... im sure its possible for me to just "do it" and sometimes i do, but most of the time i just run and hide, and i blame myself alot to. as i write this i feel so pathetic... being so sad. did something went wrong there?

please, if you think of something that could be of help (much on this thread have allready been) yes but, i think that what i try to say is that everything is up to me after all, but at the same time as its true its just another bad reason for me not to take advices.

this thread have really taken some interesting turns since the last time i read! its really in present tense... cool.
its so good to hear that others also feel fragile from this training!

/jonas

You were saying you were laughing one minute then had bad emotions the next is there some thought or something that changed your mood into negative feeling? or do these emotions just wave through you without any thoughts attached?  I cant remember a time where I had a negative feeling without thoughts attached to it...or maybe an image.

[Jonas K strand]

thank you. the thing is, that time was filled with very much bodily sensations, just after a meditationcourse. and these strong sensations made me happy, sad etz. so ofcaurse there were thaughts at that time. i couldnt really handle all the sensations and im in the same situation now most of the time. the sensations are more gross now. maby thats why i dont feel/think much pleasure. but why should pleasant sensations be better to work with than unpleasant? yeah... ohh... its just that i cant really handle what im into now.
i have learned that its not enough to meditate cos if you do it "wrong" you wont come out of the sufferings. ..and thats a good experience.

im not into labeling certain sensations as good or bad,

jiola - i understand what you mean. i have done the "right things" all my life it feels like. this includes being nice to people when i am angry and trying to perfect my maners. this non acceptance of my evil half is not good... i see myself running into walls and getting smashed to the ground from time to time, and those are no thaughts, more like pictures and impulses... so this evil 50% side of me tries to kill me? why?

/jonas

[jilola]

quote:so this evil 50% side of me tries to kill me? why?

It doesn't try to kill]/i] you, unless you were being metaphorical.
The "hitting walls" experience is the result of trying to avoid the deep realization that everyone is capable of destructive and horrible behaviour, that we all have egocentric tendencies no matter how much we like to pretend we don't, that it takes a huge effort to see through the fog of me-me-me and the dualistic we vs. they.
I can't say I have the solution to your dilemma but I think it would not be a wasted effort to examine what it is you perceive as the "perfect" you and the "evil" you and figure out what the difference is; especially in light of it being within your conscious choice to be one or the other.

You mentioned in your initial post that you're much more confortable and at ease when you're alone than when you're with other people. Spend time thinking about what it is about being with other people that causes the unease (trite but often ignored course of action.)
When I did it the root cause was my trying to please and live according to the expectations of the people around and not according to what I intuitively perceived as what I was.

I think it's often best to let people know you are angry when you have a cause to be. Doing anything else will only add to the stress of being around the people. Just remember that there are constructive ways of showing anger and then there are destructive ways; conscious and mindful choice is what will keep you on the right path.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[Frank]

Jonas: Self-obsession or a compulsive preoccupation with the self is a common failing amongst people. Most people in western society have this downward-spiralling habit, and it is immensely tricky situation to extricate yourself from.

I would suggest also that most people in this society are so ingrained in their ways of thinking they would find it impossible; and so they have to keep returning, time and again. Which I personally am not all that bothered about. After all, it is their problem. What does concern me (a lot) is the pain and suffering they cause to innocent creatures who have just as much right to be on Earth as we have, and the rape and destruction that is being caused to the planet.

We are only human after all, and I would say getting a little miffed now and again or a little frustrated with the way things may have turned out on occasion, is fairly normal. And probably a whole lot healthier for the mind than bottling it up.

But the key words here are "little" and "now and again" and so forth. If you find yourself actually feeling anger, this is a serious situation (in my view) which should be worked on right away. Feelings like anger, rage, jealousy, hate, greed and so on, are symptoms that are directly related to fairly severe ego attachment. But in western society these kinds of feelings are so prevalent they have become normal to the extent where people hardly notice them. What they do notice, however, are the symptoms of sickness and disease, both mental and physical, that this western way of living causes to the body. And more and more people are getting sicker every year. Problem is, only a tiny few make the connection between the problems they are experiencing and their way of life. Instead they blame other factors such as age, or bad luck, or dream-up some other lame excuse.

I used to do a lot of voluntary work with what society calls "disadvantaged teenagers" and so many of them existed in a permanent state of confusion. To me it was like their body was naturally rejecting the circumstances they were living in, which the young person could sense. But the confusion arose from them thinking "why" when they were trying so hard to live a "normal" life. Well, all very normal in the sense of western idealism. But about as far from natural as it is possible to get in terms of the body's true needs.

Yours,
Frank

[kiauma]

I appreciate your ideals of peace and harmony Frank, and agree that 'normal' society is far from nurturing or often even beneficial.

Still, honestly, I wonder what makes you so sure that your espoused ideals are the 'right' teleology of the universe.  After all, the only constant is change, and evolution implies not only improvement through adaptation but also the demise of all interim adaptations.  It just seems that while your ideals appear admirable, and 'common sense' would seem to dictate the desirability of them, they seem rather out of step with the reality of the human condition and the necessity of the pain of evolution and constant change that is the 'norm' of the universe.

I'm not questioning the choices you make for yourself, that is your right and obligation, in my view, but you seem to be attaching your values to the rest of humanity as well, which I am curious about.

[Frank]

Kiauma: Please understand they are not solely my ideals of peace and harmony. People throughout the ages (admittedly an ever so tiny minority) have been saying the same for thousands of years, while "you lot" waged war regardless.

I just feel that perhaps the time has finally come where people, in the main, begin to actually act on the peace and harmony stuff rather than just paying lip-service to the idea. You know, rather than fighting for peace, just everyone simply stop fighting and the peace will come of its own accord.

I am not attaching my views to humanity, just the relatively small minority of people in the western world that cause the most damage. You say the reality of the pain of human evolution: all I observe are the innocent suffering the pain while the minority claim to be evolving.

You think western society is normal? No, it is by no means normal. It feels that way because that is the only kind of norm broadcast by the western news media. Anything too far removed from that norm is presented as a kind of freak situation such as something caused by a terrorist, or an "act of god" and all that freaky kind of nonsense.

Where you say "human condition" I strongly suspect you mean western-world human condition, and by your idea of improvement I also take it you mean technological advancement. But how have advances in technology improved people? All technology has done is enable the powerful to kill the less powerful in bigger numbers, and in a shorter time than ever before.

Oh, and it has enabled us to talk about it over the internet... big deal. I (for one) would willingly trade that for all those billions of wasted lives any day of the week.

Yours,
Frank

[kiauma]

Frank,

Your reply has given me cause for pause.   I have once again underestimated the barriers to true communication, so I am afraid I must backtrack to re-cover and clarify my points and position.   I apologise in advance if it appears time consuming, but finding once again I am on the defensive I can hardly decide where to even begin.

You think western society is normal? No, it is by no means normal. It feels that way because that is the only kind of norm broadcast by the western news media. Anything too far removed from that norm is presented as a kind of freak situation such as something caused by a terrorist, or an "act of god" and all that freaky kind of nonsense.

No, no, and sometimes.

Where you say "human condition" I strongly suspect you mean western-world human condition, and by your idea of improvement I also take it you mean technological advancement. But how have advances in technology improved people? All technology has done is enable the powerful to kill the less powerful in bigger numbers, and in a shorter time than ever before.

No, no, and not entirely.  

Before I go on in more detail, I will point out where I think your assumptions are coming from.

Kiauma: Please understand they are not solely my ideals of peace and harmony. People throughout the ages (admittedly an ever so tiny minority) have been saying the same for thousands of years, while "you lot" waged war regardless.

Please explain to me how this is any different from any of the other us/them belief boxes characteristic of every contentious or even militant perspective in the history of human conflict?  I mean, all of the symptoms are there;  'You' are placed into one (morally superior) group, while I am placed into the morally opposite group, the 'aggressor' - without so much as presentation of evidence or a trial - guilty until proven innocent!!

In my view, Frank, intemperate avidity has always been the main-spring of conflict, and it is exactly  the 'us/them' perspective which has been the main psychological mechanism, so to speak, that allows it to happen.   In effect, the mechanism of 'us/them' perspective allows a certain dis-identification of a person as human, as being different from yourself, and less deserving.  This is precisely the psychological echanism employed in racial slurs or other labelling, such as "you lot".  Then, the way is open for violence, whether psychological or physical.  

I just feel that perhaps the time has finally come where people, in the main, begin to actually act on the peace and harmony stuff rather than just paying lip-service to the idea. You know, rather than fighting for peace, just everyone simply stop fighting and the peace will come of its own accord.

Well then, Frank, I will put it to you;  When are you going to actually act on the peace and harmony stuff, rather then espouse it out of one side of your mouth while seperating and condemning the diversity that is all around you out the other?

From the first post:
What i'd like to do is shed myself from my ego, so I can gain more of a childlike view of the world. I know it may be tough since I can't really unlearn and unsee what i've seen in my past. It's just that all these assumptions about the world I live in, how I view myself, how I think others view me, judging other people thinking I know them by how they act, or look. It's rediculous and a waste of energy. I also want to detach myself from certain things as I have a problem with confrontation.

So to cut to the chase i'd like to learn how to shed off some of this baggage that i'd gained over the years so I can't live in a world without having to judge myself or others....and my question is what is the best way to go about this?

I suggest that accusation, blame, and labelling are just more of the same attitude of conflict that will lead to the same place.   To really transcend such aggressions, we need understanding, awareness, and also patience.   Then when we act, we can be assured of acting correctly.

[Frank]

Kiauma: This is not a question of morals. It is a question of living a life which is free from adding to the deaths of billions of innocent creatures every year, who have just as much right to live on this planet as we have; and living a life that does not add to the ongoing and ever increasing mass rape and destruction of our planet.

Surely I do not have to personally provide evidence of that, when the evidence is there for all to see. After all, I am by no means the only one. Problem is most people living in western society choose to simply ignore it. Hence my trying to point it out. Also, war looks to have been, and continues to be, a favourite pastime of these kinds of individuals. So it comes as no surprise to me that you gauge what I have to say in terms of a militant perspective.

I put the phrase "you lot" in quotes so you would know it was not literally meant. I'm sorry you didn't pick that up, and I naturally meant no offence. (One of the problems when trying to communicate through a forum as opposed to face to face.)

Yes, extreme greed does rather seem to be the mainspring of conflict, and I would agree the "us/them" perspective has been the primary psychological mechanism. This is why I (for one) would rather present a different overview. Not that many people accept it as yet, but it doesn't stop me trying to set a good example. What good it will serve I don't know. But I'm willing to take the chance.

I do my utmost to live a peaceable existence, but that doesn't mean to say I cannot express an opinion. I know you are trying to make a cute point which leads me to think you may have been a lawyer in another life.  But on a more serious note, I can readily encompass your point of view because I realise you have not had the benefit of the myriad of inner teachings I have been fortunate enough to have experienced.

Your suggestion that accusation, blame, and labelling are just more of the same attitude of conflict that will lead to the same place is true enough. But is not your post then a ready demonstration of how we excuse one in favour of pointing out to the other?

Yours,
Frank

[kiauma]

It appears I am getting my point across, though if somewhat misdirected.   The subject of this thread is 'Shedding the junk' not 'Frank' or 'Kiauma'.   As such, within our separate points, I keep trying to relate back to the subject.   I think we have made our cases well, and the rest is superfluous.

I bow to you Frank.

[Gandalf]

I bow to you Frank.

sounds like a martial arts contest!

Honour has been preserved, the ying/yang remains balanced.... ok I'm talking tosh now...

Anyway, i think we've all decided on the best idea... ditch the meat an animal products, people... and that nasty caffeine and granulated suger..

for those who look on in horror, there are plenty alternatives and you can even get veggie cheese (which tastes great) and cafeine free tea and coffee, veggie 'meat' which is fine, soya milk and so on.
ok i know the de-caf process for tea and coffee involves lots of nasty process, but its still better than the caffeine..
you can keep the de-caf coffee and tea for those odd occasions when you do fancy a cup.

Douglas
PS I have started the above practices so yes I AM practicing what I preach..
I have to say, so far, I've never felt better.
What I found rough though was the withdrawl symtoms from caffeine, they are actually severe with headaches or so on, but if you persevere for a week then they will pass.

Thanks Frank and everyone else who has recomended this plan, I have been at this for nearly a month now and I'm feeling a lot better!

[BlackTalon]

Theres some really interesting posts on here...I think it's time for me to start understanding myself better.

What i'd like to do is shed myself from my ego, so I can gain more of a childlike view of the world. I know it may be tough since I can't really unlearn and unsee what i've seen in my past. It's just that all these assumptions about the world I live in, how I view myself, how I think others view me, judging other people thinking I know them by how they act, or look. It's rediculous and a waste of energy. I also want to detach myself from certain things as I have a problem with confrontation.

I work in a hotel and have the great pleasure of having to tell people to keep the noise down, kick people out, dealing with thieves and alcoholics. Now i'm not afraid of actually getting into a fight as my intuition or my feelings is i'd rather fight than have to tell someone to keep things down or throw someone out. The problem I have with the actual confrontation is with my body it reacts right away, say a bunch of drunks walk in to the hotel and right away I know i'm most likely going to have to confront them and when the time comes my heart just starts going ( adrenaline rush?) i duno and I feel shakey and to compound that I don't want to confront someone when i'm supposed to be someone of authority having that reaction. So this is a big thing i'd like to understand more, as i'm not afraid but my body reacts and that holds me back. It doesnt make sense to me why my body would react, as i'm not afraid of death, not afraid of a fight,...so really whats the problem?....

Sometimes I wonder if i'm feeling something from other people, cause if someone is mad at me or i'm having an argument it feels like i'm being stabbed right in the center of my chest. Another strange thing I noticed when my boss asks me for a favor, say to work a certain day for him, before he finishes the first word of the sentance I feel sick, i can't describe it other than maybe i'm feeling ( what someone would feel if they wanted to ask you something but didnt want to be turned down )...I don't understand why I feel this way.

So to cut to the chase i'd like to learn how to shed off some of this baggage that i'd gained over the years so I can't live in a world without having to judge myself or others....and my question is what is the best way to go about this? I do meditate from time to time but i'm wondering if I should be concentrating on my thoughts and emotions or if theres some special techniques for this.

Another weird example below

1: A walk downtown to the store
2: A walk in the woods or on the beach with no people around

I feel all kinds of different things when i'm around people or if i'm going up town, but say i'm by myself it's almost the opposite, it's like when i'm around people i'm emotionally getting pulled around...i'm not at peace. If i'm out in the boondocks somewhere i feel more childlike, maybe this is because I have engrained in my mind a self image...i don't really know.