Stopping the Internal Dialogue

[Tom]

In the meditation system I am using, losing track of the meditative object due to thinking about other things is called gross scattering. There is another level of it called subtle scattering where the object is not lost completely but the attention is divided. There is also an obstacle called laxity. When the mind gains some stability it can hold to the object, but clarity is lost in laxity when the mind's grip is too loose. It is typical to alternate between holding onto the object too tightly (subtle scattering) and holding on too loosely (laxity). The problem is that the balancing point can only be found through experience.

[TheSeeker]

I know exactly what you mean Ash, sort of makes you feel like your mind is unraveling.  I think it just takes practice to have complete focus.  Somedays I would be 1/2 way focused, others I felt completely focused, but persistance makes it better.

I find that if I try to feel as if I'm breathing into my head, and then focusing on the way my head 'feels', I can concentrate much easier then if I am simply focusing on breath, or counting breaths.  Hope this helped.

[Adrian]

Greetings,

This is indeed an important and difficult discipline, and one that takes alot of practice.

The objective is to try to not let a thought take hold - as soon as you detect a thought intruding, firmly, but without emotion push it away. Eventually, your mind should get the idea and obey. It also helps to prepare for the meditation by affirming to yourself that you will not take any mundane day to day thoughts into the meditation with you, and ensuring that you start as you mean to continue - with an empty mind. It does help to passively focus on breathing, or a Chakra - e.g. Brow or Heart. If a thought does intrude, the harder you try to reject it, the more they will come - reject the thought calmly but firmly.

For those that find this particularly difficult, a method that can work well is to focus hard on a single object in your mind , e.g. candle, scene etc., and to not allow any other thoughts to join that thought. When you have succeeded at that for 5 or 10 minutes, then discard the original thought and continue with the silence.

This is an extremely important discipline, and very well worth the effort.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[TheSeeker]

Just another tidbit I hope helps.  I notice when I count breaths that I won't lose count, but my mind will still be chattering.

I find it is easier to think 'in' on the in breath, and 'out' on the out and remain focused then to count breaths.  Thinking 'in' and 'out' makes me focus more on the actual breath since i'm mentally saying the direction of the breath, and counting makes me focus on the numbers more than the actual breathing.

Also, it seems to me that somedays are just harder than others.  I've also noticed that the way you eat greatly effects your concentration, which I'm sure you knew, but thought I'd throw that in.

[Ash]

thanks for the responses guys. this is all very useful input. It's nice to know other people have the same problems, too. I guess it just boils down to practice practice practice.

ash

[Lysear]

I'd just like to share a technique with you that I find effective. It involves the use of tarot cards. Pick a card and scan it from the top right to top left, about 1/2 inch to 1 inch at a time. Once one strip is done go to the next section and do the same all the way to the bottom. Once you have scanned the whole card, place it aside. Recreate this process in your head. Recreate the card strip by strip. Once this is done you should then proceed to deconstruct the card in the same manner. Strip by strip see it dissapear, after a bit of fiddling around with this technique I found that imagining ripping the card off strip by strip is more effective than just seeing this disspear.

Now the explanation. As your mind has been so busy doing this, once the last strip of the card is gone, you mind has nothing to do. So theres silence, nought there! It may only work for 3 seconds before your internal diolouge starts up again "there I'm silent" is always a frustrating one!!

It should work with anything, but tarot cards are good for two reasons.1they are complex so better suited to western society and the way our brains work. 2/ if you are studying the tarot it is a brilliant way to get better aquainted with it.

today, for the first time, I managed about 3 minutes with no internal dialogue, or at least only 1 or 2 interuptions which I quickly sorted out.

I lifted this technique from Donald Michael Kraigs "11 lessons in the higher magickal arts" but it was modified, so its at least part mine.

[rodentmouse]

hello ash..  PRACTISE PRACTISE PRACTISE PRACTISE PRACTISE


  i  still have  that problem,  but i  think its helped me a lot  in  learning  to  forgive myself  and  accept  who i am,  that  YES,  i am a novice  meditator,  im  the one  judging  myself..

i  would  get  frustrated  and   think  "why isnt  it  "working"  i  wish  id  stop  thinking",   but  that   does everything  BUT  acheive a calm mind...

you  should  try and let  all expectations  and  thoughts  just  fly  by,  dont  dwell on  anything  that  encourages  more  thought..  a  thought  is a  thought  when  trying to meditate...


i  used to  (and  still sometimes)   fear   my meditation  sessions,   because  i  saw it  as a battle,  a battle between  my  true  self  and  my  monkey mind-  who  would  win  tonight???

of  course,  it  is  natural  to   fear  any  battle  in any  area of  life.

when i came  out  and the majority of  the session  was  spent  "thinking"  i would be dissapointed,  and  vice verca  if  i   had  a still   mind  experience,  hence it  was all about winning  or  losing  with me,  and  this  Isnt  the point of it at all..


now i am  slowly  learning to  forgive   and accept  my  current state of  meditation ability,  it  cannot  be  rushed,  it  happens naturally..  the  best way to overcome  the frustration  of  not being  able to meditate indefinatly  is  to  accept  as FACT  that it  is  a practise  that  develops over time..

and  of  course  PRACTISE

[Fat_Turkey]

I've had the same problems but I can't exactly help...sorry. I think though that maybe burning some incense or playing some soft music in the background might help. I might get some incense soon to try it out for myself[]

Later
-FT

[amed]

i'm not sure if this will help anyone, as most of what makes this technique sensible has to do with the way i view things.. but i'll try to relate my method of reaching 'quiet mind' as best i can.

this technique is easier if u can hold an image of something in your head for long periods of time.. not the outright image, but the feeling of that image.. i dunno, use your imagination!  

ok, this is what i do:  first i relax the entire body.. i tend to concentrate on the core of the earth, imagining myself as a dot on the surface of this huge sphere we're on.. this tends to relax and shift my focus away from my body right away.. a couple minutes here will lead me to step two..

i next zoom out, and.. its hard to describe, but i shift my awareness from a human being living this current lifetime on earth in the 21st century to one involved in a bigger picture.. imagine yourself no longer in your body but in a state of calm content.. u can view yourself as many dots (lifetimes) and feel as tho you are the summation of those lives.  thats how i meditate before i sleep.. its based firmly on the belief that my energy.. as a whole is participating in several different lives across several different timelines.. i just try to skip out of this one when i meditate and experience the sum.

hope this helps in anyway, amed

[ralphm]

It took me about 20 years of meditation to reach a decent state of non-thinking. The best techniques I used were tibetian ones of focusing on a diety and using a mantra at the same time- I guess the more things you focus on the less chance for thoughts to creep in. RB has a great discussion on this idea of thoughts there generation in AD.

[nstkd8]

This might be slightly off topic... but is this "completely quiet mind" necessary to achieve a conscious exit OBE? Or is it enough to simply keep stray thoughts from causing you to forget what you're doing? One more thing... is a slight loss of mental clarity due to "laxity" (as Tom described it) necessary to cause the body to "fall asleep"?

[Paukki]

quote:It took me about 20 years of meditation to reach a decent state of non-thinking.

This might be tangent to the topic, but recently I've been exposed to the idea that one can reach a state wherein there is no inner dialogue even during non-meditative times, (i.e., all day).  Are you in, or close to that state?  I can only guess, but it would seem that any "inner dialogue" in such a state would be at one's beck and call.  The egoic mind is dissolved in "Being" and can be picked up and set back down as needed.  Man, now that's a way!

--Paukki

[Tom]

Twenty minute or an hour or even a few hours a day of controlling the internal dialogue surrounded by all the rest of the day just letting the mind chatter will not work well. Efforts to control the internal dialogue can be made all day long. Of course, I do not mean that a significant portion of the awareness has to be reserved at all times for forcing thoughts from the mind costantly. Just don't entirely let go of your efforts and intensify them when you get the opportunity during the day.

[Astpro]

To silence the internal dialogue I forcible holding it away, don't just expect it to happen, try as hard as you can. Focus on the room your in and look all around you, this will create an awareness of the space your in. Any sound in the room (not music) will help. Hold your point of awareness on this sound and feel what it sounds like. Breathing is the easiest sound to focus on because the sound is always there, but it is also one of the hardest for any length of time because it is usually subconscious. Look at textures in the room and look closely and as consciously as you can at them. What I am trying to say is, try to feel as alive as possible.

Work on holding the thoughts away completely for 5-10 seconds to begin with, or for as long as you can. Then with practice build it up. After a while you will develop a feeling for this. You will be able to turn on this feeling and silence your internal dialogue. To me it feels like heaviness, especially around/inside the head. This is like what you would feel when you mediate for the first time, only weaker.  

[Nick]

The mind chatter problem occurs to everyone. The only way to deal with it is to acknowledge it and then go back to counting or following your breaths (or whatever is used). In time we get better at emptying the mind of those scattered thoughts.

[fredhedd]

we are able to concentrate on numerous things at one time.  driving is a good example.  driving and talking on the phone is another.  you could even be day dreaming while on the phone, while driving somewhere.  this is why it's easy to concentrate on counting or whatever you are meditating on, and be aware of those other thoughts you are having in the background.  an important part of the goal is to keep the mind in one spot.  using an object for meditation is recommended to start.  putting a ball in front of you on the floor is one good way.  it's  easier than trying to keep an image in your mind.  if you gaze at the ball w/out thinking 'ball' you will be on a  good path.  as soon as you notice you are thinking about something else, bring your attention back to the ball and clear your mind.  this is extremely difficult to master.  the first few minutes are usually the easiest for me.  after that my thoughts tend to become longer when i have them.  it's important not to get annoyed when you realize you have just zoned out for five minutes or more.  this will easily happen.  the moment that you realize you have zoned out is the exact moment that you have the oppurtunity to progress w/ your meditation.  as soon as you realize this has happened make every effort to return your awareness to the object.  if you don't try as hard as you can to do this you will find yourself realizing you were just day dreaming and continuing on your day dream w/ the background thought now being 'i am supposed to be concentrating on the ball'.  
you could spend an easy half an hour meditating w/ only two scattered minutes total that you achieved your goal in.  this is completely normal.  it takes great mental discipline to be able to sit for a minute straight w/out thought.  as soon as you are able to keep the object firmly in mind w/out thought, you are ready to move onto meditation w/out an object.  
i have tried both and even though the object type meditation is recommended, i've found the objectless meditation to be easier and more progressive for me.  after i made some significant progress w/ the silent meditation i went back to the object and found it a lot easier than before.  
when just starting out, five minutes, six times a day vs half an hour straight is sometimes more rewarding.  always add to the time when you can though.  
you do not need to be able to do any of this to be successful at oobe.  it would help greatly though.
i believe lack of clarity to be caused by laxity.  it may not seem so at first but when you strengthen your intention to reach your goal, clarity increases dramatically.  preparing yourself  before meditation will help w/ your intent.  
i used to get somewhat frustrated wheni realized i had been day draming.  i used that as fuel to increase my intent.  it worked like a charm.  
i feel that i've progressed very much w/ in the last six months.  it was/is very hard. if anyone has any questions at all post them here.  i feel that i'd be able to help.

[panabelle]

What works for me to shut up my hyperactive little kid of a conscious mind is to put everything on hold and feel like I'm waiting for a noise or something to come. You know how you see lightning, then wait for the thunder? During that time, you aren't really thinking of anything, just being alert and waiting. (Although sometimes I end up thinking of thunderstorms.[|)])

[pod3]

Meditate upon virtuousness. Then, anything in your hands will be done rightly. Pride will not tell you to interfere with that which is not in your hands. What would be left to worry about?

[kifyre]

There's whole bunch of things going on in your mind at any one time--what are you trying to silence?

As far as I can tell, here's what most people have:

1) thought stream
2) subvocalization
3) emotion/sensation

As far as I can tell, what most of us are working on is silencing subvocalization. This is the little voice in your head; it's not *you*. This is most people's "reading voice." When most people read, their throat, lips, and tongue make micromovements different from speaking only in magnitude. Fast readers utilize the thought stream--from eyes directly to mind.

I believe that projection requires silencing subvocalization and leaving the thought stream alone (or perhaps focusing the thought stream). (Subvocalization involves micromuscle movement, therefore utilizing the body, therefore locking you in the body.) I forget the exact quote, but Frank has mentioned that his mind is "clear but very active" when he is projecting. (Again I forget the exact words, but that's the gist I picked up...)

How can you separate out what's what in your head? The best way is to practice reading with the thought-stream alone. Then it's easier to differentiate this activity from subvocalization. Count rapidly 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10-1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10... out loud *while reading*. Quickly, you'll be able to read while counting. Now, count silently to yourself *while reading*. If it's light material, like a novel, the words will flash by faster and eventually you'll be able to bring in imagery, etc. This is utilizing the thought stream.

I've just begun practicing this; I still count a lot. But all you need is to get the gist of it, the feel of subvocalization. Then you can *turn it off* -- this is the silencing -- much easier when you know what you're silencing.

Subvocalization feels more linear, one word after another like speaking. Thoughtstream is --bam!-- whole sentence/concept at once. When you're trying to silence the mind, and a full concept rips by, that's probably the thoughtstream. And then when you think, "dammit!" to yourself, you've just subvocalized.

Now, on to speculation. You've only got one mouth, but your thought stream can probably subdivide. So, once you turn off subvocalization, you need to focus your mind, bring all the separate streams together. Probably maintaining an image or concentrating on a sensation is best. (If you use a mantra, you risk activating subvocalization!) Another thing to focus on? Projecting! This is concentration, bringing your mind together to one point, one task.

(The difference between subvocalization and the thoughtstream was made clear to me from: http://www.trans4mind.com/speed_reading/)

Let me know what you think, people!

All the best,

Mark

[Ash]

yes, the pesky internal dialogue. blah blah blah nag nag nag it never shuts up. Can anyone here turn it off? Everytime I try, I find myself thinking in layers. What I mean is 50% of my mind will be dutifully observing the meditation, following the mantra or focussing on my breath or whatever I'm doing, but the other half of my mind just keeps on talking. I can easily focus enough attention on, say counting breaths that I will not lose track, but that seems to have no effect whatsoever on the other part of my mind that will be doing anything else from having a daydream to thinking about something else. Or the worst thing is when the "talky" half of my mind joins in with the meditation and talks incessantly about it. It says things like "Yes, you're doing really well" or "Look you're not even thinking at all. Keep not thinking" or "Must stop talking". It just won't seem to shut up. I've even had times where it feels like I have three or four separate minds all thinking different things. One will be meditating, one will be thinking about school, one will be telling the other one to shut up about school, etc etc.
Does anybody else have similar problems? Any ideas on what to do about it?

Ash