What means "to surrender"... and how do to that ?

[God's Love]

Hey all,

I don't understand how to "surrender", or to "let go" ? I mean ... let go of what ? and surrender to who ?

If I want to surrender to God, how can I do that ?

Perhaps you guys have some personal experiences to tell    ?

Thanks a lot !

Deiuo.

Love God...that'll do  

[daem0n]

how to surrender - you don't, ever
let go - accept reality as it is, don't create your own dream world and then suffer becouse the outer reality doesn't match

[Frank]

I'm not sure about the god stuff as it's really not my thing. When people have surrendered in the past, didn't they burn themselves at the stake or something? Sounds a bit extreme to me. But then fanatics are, I suppose, by definition.

In terms of projection (which is more my thing) the letting go normally means letting go of physical attachment and surrendering to the experience. The area of a person's mind that deals with actions and events on the physical realm is generally called the "ego". When you project, you cannot take your ego consciousness with you; as this area of consciousness deals exclusively with the physical realm, and no other realm.

Whilst focused within the physical, all normal people have two basic mental tools to aid in their operation within this realm, 1) the physical ego consciousness and, 2) the physical waking consciousness. The former you cannot take with you, and the latter you want to take with you. Problem is, in people who are materialistically inclined, which is the majority of people in western society, their dominant sense of physical consciousness is the ego. So for them, splitting their physical waking consciousness from the ego is nigh impossible.

In a properly balanced person, the physical waking consciousness should be clearly dominant. In other words, the ego should be a servant of the intellect, and not the other way around. Which means this kind of person should have little trouble letting go of their ego consciousness as the connection isn't all that strong to begin with.

So the "letting go" bit is all to do with letting go of your ego consciousness. As for "surrendering" when we surrender to an experience we don't try to, in any way, fight it. We simply yield to it and allow the projection experience to unfold. Projection is a natural process that just needs to be kick-started following which it usually runs all of its own accord... but only if we let it. Once we start trying to fight it, then all manner of problems can arise. Fears begin to materialise and so forth. All of which puts a major spoke in the works.

HTH

Yours,
Frank

[Tayesin]

Hi all,
I really do like the way Frank can put such concepts into simple terminology for people.

I agree that it is the Ego which tries to direct us through life.  And the subduing of Ego could be part of the mechanics of letting go, but I also think that we are choosing to be human beings in these lives and Ego is part of the human dynamic..  so perhaps it doesn't need to be given up or subdued.  Maybe it only needs Balancing.

Letting go is something I have had great difficulty with, as for me it means to go with the flow instead of trying to be in control all the time of the direction we want to go.  And of course we are indoctrinated into the having to have control over things, others and maybe even ourselves occassionally.

When we doggedly stick to things that aren't providing the outcomes we are expecting, you could say that is not letting go, because the ego doesn't want to give up it's power of control.   Subduing the ego could also prevent us from being successful, as we may not be motivated to even try then.

This brings us back to Balance being the direction to move in.  Having the ability to see where the energy is flowing for us.. providing us with direction that we can mould within a framework for it to be more effective.   For me this is what we call Letting go or surrendering.  Or as christians would say it, giving it up to god.

But hay, I haven't succeeded in doing this yet, so maybe this concept needs more modifications to it.  Maybe one day I can return with a clearer answer to this question, LOL

Tay

[kiauma]

Very good replies Frank and Tayesin!

I agree that balance is key, and often overlooked.   Paradoxically, desire to be rid of ego can be very egoistic.   One can struggle for a lifetime with this, consciously or unconsciously, and all the time the struggle is entirely self-perpetuated.

OBEs do happen spontaneously all the time, but can also elude a person who is trying very hard for many years.   As Frank alluded to this has to do with where we draw our boundaries of consciousness, though we may, and most likely aren't, conscious of just what those boundaries are or how we draw them.

Doggedly sticking to things that don't work is unconsciousness in action, for one thing, and neurosis for another.    Consciousness and balance go hand in hand.  It is the 'ability to see where the energy is flowing for us' that Tayesin speaks of and the ego subserviance that Frank speaks of.  It is letting go without getting lost, it is surrendering without apathy.   It is the riding of the line between opposites with consciousness to enjoy the benefits of both.

[Leo Volont]

Surrender

It is an interesting concept.  It has been around forever in every one of the Monastic Spiritual Traditions.  Those in charge in Monasteries are typically old men, and old men all have one thing in common – not wanting to take a whole lotta crap from young men.  So the young men are indoctrinated into surrendering their will to the Traditions and Moralities of the Monastery.  It sounds cynical but it is true that without discipline and control asserted over them, the 'lads' would hurt each other and tear the places up more than would be strictly necessary.  

But is there any spiritual benefits to surrender?  Well, in many Monasteries the membership are not entirely spiritual aspirants who applied as adults for the purpose of achieving Enlightenment;  they may just be orphans.  In many Eastern Cultures the illegitimate and unwanted infants are left at the Monasteries.  They never asked to be there, and given their biological histories it is easy to imagine how they could tend to be rebellious toward authority.  But in every case, by the time they are 40 years old or so, they are the ones running the place, teaching the young ones all about "Surrender".

But we who are self-motivated Spiritual Aspirants can scratch our heads and wonder what benefits 'surrender' could have for us.  We are here voluntarily after all.  We ASKED to be here.  For us Surrender applies in areas of Moral Dilemma.  When given a choice between the good and the evil, or between the  easy or the difficult, then we must surrender to what we know to be the better and higher course.  It is particularly useful in regards to ethics.  We can choose between self-indulgence or self command.  "To be your own Master, you must be your own servant".  You need to be able to tell yourself what to do, and you have to count on yourself to do it.  Whether it is regarding necessary but arduous tasks, or in insisting upon strictly professional behavior with those who are vulnerable to us, we need to 'surrender' always to the higher and the better.... Except on vacation.

[Tayesin]

Kaiuma and Leo,
Thank you for sharing your sense of humour, as well as your thoughts.

I laughed for ages about the old men not wanting to take a whole lotta crap from the younger ones.  True and funny too.

Surrender where it concerns Moral Dilemnas may well be the main manifestation of surrender.  Choosing the higher road is always seen as the way of the intelligent and more spiritually motivated.. yet it may also prevent us from having important experiences !!  

I suppose if we were to not apply value judgements like good and bad, or moral/ethical beliefs we may be open to the having of necessary experiences that we would have otherwise closed the door to.  That brings us back to going with the flow !  Damn, this is a bit cyclic.  

And then we find we are back to the problem of how to go with the flow, instead of digging in with Ego and trying to force things to go the way we want them to.  For this I have no answers !!!  Except the one's previously stated.

As Leo said, we did choose to be here and experience all we do in every level of our endeavours.  So in effect we are already going with the Flow of the life-choices-framework we wanted to have here.  But this doesn't mean Pre-destiny.  It just means the framework for this life is much larger than we have anticipated with our human perceptions.

And this then brings me back to the idea of being able to see where the energy is flowing for us on the framework for this life and then choosing accordingly.

We can choose to experience the full Rollercoaster ride that is possible in our life.. which most of us do already.  Or we can work on Balance and reduce the massive highs and lows to something more resembling the small ups and downs of a calm sea than a rollercoaster.  

Personally, I wonder why we would choose to do that if we are here as Souls wanting to have the Experiences available in this life !!  The high-highs and deep lows are excellent experiences for any Soul.  Much like we can savour the wonderful tastes and textures of our favourite meal instead of choosing to eat it after it has been blended into a soupy mush that lacks character (calm sea).

Did I put that across so that it was easy to understand folks ?  Coz it looks a little up and down, round and round to me.  LOL

[Covelo]

I think the main thing to realize here might be that we have a limited perspective on things...the "Big Picture", that is... and that we should not assume we have a handle on it all...  Although I think it is our destiny to finally find out and see the big picture for what it is and use that lesson to grow from and move on to new and greater creations.  I think one of the main keys would be to stay open to new ideas and experiences and that should help us to speed up our learning curve and also to take everything in stride and not get too fixated on any particular idea.  All of these things could possibly alternatively be called letting go and letting God, I guess, as isn't God supposed to be in all things?

All be well...

Covelo

PS--And let's not forget to have as much fun as possible along the way!

[TheDarkApprentice]

how to surrender - you don't, ever
let go - accept reality as it is, don't create your own dream world and then suffer becouse the outer reality doesn't match

I agree. Never Surrender. For anything!!!

And Besides, If their is a god or  multiple ones, why would they want you to surrender to them? Do you think that god controlls you and you must obey every command? In that case God would be a nice dictator. It's an oxy moron, but think about it.

As for reality, it can be hard to accept and really hard to deal with, but you have to accept the fact that it is what it is.

[God's Love]

Hey guys,

Thanks a lot for all your answers. I found a website that explains a lot about letting go and accepting reality etc... Go to //www.jeshua.net and read the "from ego to heart" channelings. Especially that one :

http://www.jeshua.net/jeshua8.htm

It answered so many of my questions that I even made a summup of it lol.

You can get the pdf file aswell btw : http://www.jeshua.net/lightworker.pdf

Hope this helps !    

Deiuo.

Love God... that'll do

[Frank]

I want to make clear that physical ego consciousness is a very necessary component of the human physical experience. In other words, as Tayesin says, it is a definite part of the human physical dynamic and, after all, we are choosing to be physical.

We have two mental faculties to enable us to live a life as human beings within this physical plane: the physical ego consciousness, and the physical waking consciousness.

Materialising thoughts/emotions/ideas within the physical plane, is the job of the physical ego consciousness, whose point of view is entirely subjective.

In addition, our physical waking consciousness provides us with what we term our intellect, i.e. powers of reasoning and understanding, and such like, which can be either subjective, in undeveloped cases, or (more importantly) progressively more objective as the intellect develops. Physical life is all to do with developing both senses of consciousness and learning how to forge the correct balance between the two.

In the past, the imbalance between these two facets of a personality has been called Karma. Karma can be said to be positive or negative depending on which aspect of consciousness holds sway. Personally, I dislike the terms positive and negative when applied in this instance, as they infer one way is good and the other one is bad. The state we are trying to achieve is one of balance. So anything beyond that, IMO, is not a question of being positive or negative, but too much either way.

Karma is not having to live a life of suffering in order to correct past mistakes. Two wrongs do not make a right from any perspective, whether physical or non-physical. The whole idea is to bring yourself to a stage where you are Karma neutral. At which point the personality is said to be in balance.

The physical ego consciousness must always be channelled by a sound intellect. If not, highly damaging aspects of a personality can take physical form; such as narcissism, racism, greed, self-indulgence, together with all the other negative behaviours that are ever so prevalent in society, particularly western society.

The physical ego consciousness is by no means a "bad" thing. On the contrary, it is very necessary, a vital component in fact. Without it we would be like animals acting solely on instinct. There would be no such things as agriculture, technology, transportation, housing, and all the other material benefits we have brought into being within this physical world.

Unfortunately, because significant numbers of people are suffering a severe imbalance, we materialised a lot of nasty stuff too. For example, weapons (and the need for such), overpopulation, corrupt systems of government, inequality, high levels of pollution, and so forth.

Achieving the correct balance is not easy. Both aspects of consciousness have to be functioning to an optimum capacity. Not only that, the balance must stand firm under an exceedingly wide variety of circumstances. For example, anyone can be balanced when things are going well. But how does that facade stand up when the going gets tough... and then tougher still... and even tougher after that?

Many people are so darned ego-driven, virtually everything that surrounds them, their whole identity, has been (or is being) formed by the ego consciousness. These are the people who grossly indulge in all the material aspects of life. I've come across many cases where people have had all their material goods, i.e. houses, cars, credit-cards, etc. taken away from them. Either their business collapsed, or the stock-market went the other way, or whatever, and they felt their whole life had become worthless to the extent they committed suicide.

This is ultimately what happens when a powerful ego-consciousness is allowed free reign, and is not channelled by a scrupulously sound intellect. I was reading on another forum a thread entitled, Truth Against the World. It talks inter alia about people who simply cannot grasp the idea of non-materialism, which exactly demonstrates my point.

People can easily reach the stage where they simply cannot think any further than their own ego-driven desires. No matter how often, or how simply you explain it to them, they cannot appreciate what you are saying (a tiny few do, of course, but there are always exceptions to anything).

It's like these people have something missing that prevents them from appreciating the worth of any concept - no matter how simple - that lies outside their box, so to speak. What they have missing, of course, is their intellect that has been suppressed by a lifetime of ego-conscious dominance. In other words, their intellect remains in its early subjective, i.e. ego dominant, phase of development.

But even if your ego-consciousness doesn't get the better of you to the extent you curtail your life, a big problem arises on the point of physical-body death. Like I say, a person can get to the stage where the only sense of consciousness they know is the ego consciousness: to the point where they have precious little intellect left.

The basic job of the physical ego consciousness is to materialise thoughts/ideas/emotions within the physical realm. Therefore, once the physical body dies, to the personality in question, the physical realm is no more. In other words, at the point of physical-body death, the physical ego-consciousness suddenly finds itself out of a job. Which means it dissipates with the physical body. In which case, without any intellect to guide them, a person can find themselves stuck within the gruesome planes of the lower astral.

The golden rule is: your intellect you can take with you, as it survives physical-body death. In fact, you want to take it with you as it's the intellect which allows you to operate objectively within the non-physical! (This is the basic reason why we need to develop it in the first place.) The ego-consciousness dissipates on physical-body death.

The above rule is valid whilst projecting also; in that only your physical waking consciousness can be transferred to any non-physical realm, which again is precisely what you want. But your ego consciousness cannot be transferred, as it can only operate within the physical.

Yours,
Frank

PS
I'm paraphrasing my up-and-coming book in this post to a large extent as I write about this topic at length, giving you all the whys and wherefores and actual details of some of the cases I met within the non-physical. But I'm having to leave out a heck of a lot of detail to the extent where what I'm saying might not quite add up. Please bear with me on that, as there are many other side-issues I cannot explain, as fully as I would like, within the bounds of this forum.

[daem0n]

all of you built very complicated structures filled with wise words, that could be compared to towers shooting out in the sky ....
unfortunately, these towers will soon become your prisons (or already are)
how can you decide what is higher good ??
how do you know ??
just becouse it seems that is higher good desn't mean that is higher, or that is good for that matter
let's put it this way - a person wants to finally deal with past life trauma, incarnates to have exact circumstances, relives the trauma and is finally moving past it, and ... great "lightworker" appears, decides that this person is taking too much time to deal with it (or another silly reason, don't bother with details this is just example) and must help him - so heals him, and seals these emotions in him, afterwards each ofthem feels much better, lightworker with his mission and he because his burden seems to dissappear
perhaps you haven't noticed - HE RUINED THAT PERSON'S SOUL PURPOSE IN THIS INCARNATION, and he has to do it over and over again, hopefully there will be no lightworkers around next time

now some of you would like to surrender to higher/divine will
how do you know it is divine will ?? oh, he told you that ??
i hope that isn't because you are troubled with choosing ...
think for yourself, act for yourself, you're blind alright but at least you are certain that noone who is blind is guiding you

the only thing you know or have some control over (eventually ...) IS YOU
don't make decisions for other people
don't judge other people, how do you know what's good for them
clean up after yourself, and hope others will do the same, common sense is a great tool

karma is what you owe others, no more, no less
there are many ways of paying the debt (or taking it)

is ego-driven conciousness that much different with divine-driven conciousness, only objects are switched, from material to astral or higher
hmm, we are here because we couldn't experience our weaknesses higher, perhaps there is no shift in conciousness but in environment ??
and thus all dramas are unfolding on all levels and we are here, in slow motion, to work that out and report to the oversoul
this is only another way of thinking, none of those is ultimately true, but think which one offers greater possibilities...

food for thought, paintings for the blind, songs for the deaf ... are they one and the same
i'll make it my signature from now on

[jilola]

is ego-driven conciousness that much different with divine-driven conciousness,

Not really.
If either interferes with another person's purpose of having a given life it's disruptive.
Help is only help when the recipient need it not when the helper acts from an essentially egocentered perspective.
The thing that trips many who want to  help is that it's easy to help but very difficult to not help and even more difficult to see when not helping is the better choice.

2cents & L&L
jouni

[Frank]

Daem0n: I can see where you are coming from. I too don't buy all the Lightworker stuff. It all appears way far fetched to me and doesn't really tally with any of my non-physical experiences. To me it's just an extension of the kid's stuff we see today.

A high proportion of youngsters in the western world have grown up believing all those whacky cartoons about demon wars and such like, actually exist. So they are more prone to believing anything in that direction. But in reality it's just a load of fictitious bunkum that has no bearing whatever on reality.

I'm not sure whether I can agree where you say Karma is what a person owes to others. To my mind, if there is anything owed then, in those terms, surely it is owed to each individual in question; sort of, not so much what you give to others but what you give (or do) to yourself.

For instance, I like where you say, "the only thing you know or have some control over (eventually ...) IS YOU... don't make decisions for other people... don't judge other people, how do you know what's good for them" To all that I can generally agree.

The thought comes to mind then if Karma is, how you say, what you owe to other people, then how can a person possibly decide who they owe Karma to? Surely this would entail coming to some kind of judgement about what is good for them, and making a decision on their behalf? I'm sorry, but I don't follow your line of reasoning here.

Yours,
Frank

[daem0n]

i should have explained it in more detail...
for me (and after having many concepts of it) karma IS attachment
whether i owe someone, or he owes something me, this creates links that bind us here (for lack of better word)

so, karma is equal to unresolved issues from all lifetimes, they tend to balance themselves in the end (when you stop making new karma, not that difficult i discovered), or when you choose and will to resolve them, present themselves in visions (my case) when there is no other option, or just manifest in your reality giving you ways to resolve them

it is not about doing good (or bad, for that matter)  things for them, but balancing of energy, so you give equal to what you take
"bad karma" means that you did bad things to people (example), but that doesn't mean that you will suffer the same situation,  but some sort of equivalent of it, or repair different situation
if you killed someone, i doubt that you would be chronically sick in next lifetime, for that matter, because THERE IS NO CAUSE AND EFFECT HERE
what killed person has because of it - nothing
you made attachment to a specific person, not some karma multidimensional bank, you don't have brownie points for good-doing, only more debts others have to repay
when he incarnates as your son, then, that would be repaying (to some extent, of course)

or just energy
whenever you take - give energy to balance karma
whenever you give - take energy to balance karma

i repayed some of my karmic debts giving or taking energy, and it works
of course if you have emotional attachments, traumas and such you would have to work to release these too...

oh ,and how do i know - i usually ask myself (high self , for those attached to that concept), i gradually become more and more aware of those connections, besides, we do tend to incarnate together, if i have karma with some person then i'm bound to meet her to balance it  (this includes other realities)

[Frank]

Yep, I got it now and thanks for the fuller explanation. I see you are looking at things on an attachment-release-energetic level which certainly makes more sense.

Yours,
Frank

[LittlePenguin]

Very interesting point, what is letting go?. In Christianity it is used in the context of "Letting go and letting God", in other words not trying so hard in the "flesh" but letting God do it for you. This is applied as praying more, getting quiet and drawing on Gods power instead of the power of the mind. All good principles. I guess in the new age circles this concept has had ego added as another dimension. The mind is in a way seen as god and then ego becomes the lower baser human instincts.

I find that both these interpretations are somewhat flawed. Maybe I am not understanding Frank right, but in my own opinion and experience it is very important that to keep a critical and questionable attitude while in the Astral environment and not "letting go" of my judgment. This very approach is actually what attracted me to Roberts books in the first place. A keep your common sense approach!

Regarding religion what is termed "blind faith" can sometimes be too blind. I personally lean towards taking things with a grain of salt. This applies most certainly in the astral. Feelings and experiences can, as we all know be deceiving, so just be course you had a great time with someone on a mutually enjoyed one night stand, don't feel you have to marry her (maybe she just got horny and took the first guy she saw. Likewise just be course you met someone in the Astral who presented you with all the answers don't think you have personally become the representative for the Universe and expect reverence as "a great one".

Blind faith can sometimes be too blind and letting go, often means you in effect are asking someone else to hold on. Who this other someone is then determines how things work out for you.

I do understand the point about letting go of preconceived ideas as to understanding the astral, and that also applies to faith. It seems evident that anyone claiming to understand the mind of God, and why he does what he does, would be quite deceived. It appears we all just have a very very small part of the puzzle.

Kindly Little Penguin

[Tayesin]

Hi all,
Quote by Frank, " in that only your physical waking consciousness can be transferred to any non-physical realm, which again is precisely what you want. But your ego consciousness cannot be transferred, as it can only operate within the physical."

Well put, concise and exact.  I look forward to seeing your book on the stands.

Quote by Frank, "A high proportion of youngsters in the western world have grown up believing all those whacky cartoons about demon wars and such like, actually exist. So they are more prone to believing anything in that direction. But in reality it's just a load of fictitious bunkum that has no bearing whatever on reality."

It's entirely possible for this scenario to be played out, and I am sure that it probably is in many places.  ALthough it doesn't allow for those who have experience of these exact things from contact both physical and astral.   It only has no bearing on your reality Frank, and that is your choice of free will.  

Quote by Daem0n, "how can you decide what is higher good ??
how do you know ??
just becouse it seems that is higher good desn't mean that is higher, or that is good for that matter
let's put it this way - a person wants to finally deal with past life trauma, incarnates to have exact circumstances, relives the trauma and is finally moving past it, and ... great "lightworker" appears, decides that this person is taking too much time to deal with it (or another silly reason, don't bother with details this is just example) and must help him - so heals him, and seals these emotions in him, afterwards each ofthem feels much better, lightworker with his mission and he because his burden seems to dissappear
perhaps you haven't noticed - HE RUINED THAT PERSON'S SOUL PURPOSE IN THIS INCARNATION, and he has to do it over and over again, hopefully there will be no lightworkers around next time"

How can something be ruined Daem0n ?  Wouldn't such a thought be Value Judgement ?  And aren't such value judgements human-concepts in this domain ?  

The healing in this example is suspect, a real Light-worker would know the Issue had been dealt with..  hence no healing would be needed or able to be effectively achieved as the source energy that comes through a Light-worker is not on call.  It comes where and when it is needed, and only then.

Since this is so Daem0n, we can be assured of something.   For the Source Energy to be available to Heal, it shows that Creative Awareness (god, whatever) is Supporting it.  Can't be any other way, the Flow is either there or it isn't.  Supported/Action Vs. Un-supported/Non-action

If this is so, nothing can be ruined.  It is Perfect.

Now, if there is a value judgement placed upon it by anyone it must indicate that the perception/awareness is confined to a smaller picture, just as humans do.  So in this respect someone may actually KNOW what is best for another person in a moment, if that person is clear/aware and open to the source energy at that moment.  This is how action is supported by source energy.  

About Karma...

For me it is only mechanics.  I see Karma as a tool we use when conducting life-series on this and other worlds working the Duality Level of existences.

I see no good and bad, no value judgements of any sort with Karma.  

For example :-   Huge Beings volunteer to come and experience a series of Earth-lives.  Some of the characteristics of this Experience-System are the Duality Level where everything is seen as opposites and separate, a tool to work out plans with other Beings for having specific experiences that we will call Karma, and lastly more belief-Systems than you can count, to choose from in order to forget who you are.  So you use the tools available to you and Here you are.

You owe nothing to anyone or anything.  You will only answer to yourself when the lives are done because you are a Huge Being who chose to come here and do all this.  If you killed someone this time, you may not work out the contract with the other Being for a few life-times, because in reality the time is just a blink for the Huge Being you really are..  you know you will work it out and both parties will have the experiences they contracted themselves to.  It will be Perfect, because Source Energy will support all those actions you asked for.

Karma is mechanics, it is the tool we use to work out our contracts with other beings, there are no Value Judgements between you because at this awareness level you see it all as Excellent Experience.  Meanwhile you are still sitting at the computer in your human-being awareness level mostly oblivious to it all because we agreed to forget so that we could slowly Remember who we really are through the having of our experiences.

Quote by Daem0n, "hmm, we are here because we couldn't experience our weaknesses higher, perhaps there is no shift in conciousness but in environment ?? "

The important word in that sentence was 'Experience'.  Weaknesses is an experience, a part of the condition of being incarnate Human Beings.  Nothing more.  The value judgement does not apply in our own higher-reality.

Jilola Said, "Help is only help when the recipient need it not when the helper acts from an essentially egocentered perspective.
The thing that trips many who want to help is that it's easy to help but very difficult to not help and even more difficult to see when not helping is the better choice."  

Very apt Jouni, few people would understand how hard it is to not help when the chakra of your hands are Burning from the source energy pumping through you.  There are times when you don't help and that is perfect too.  

[daem0n]

by weakness i understand limitation, no judgment here

interference is possible because we have free will, and soul purpose is only a schedule, not detailed plan, and there are things that can change it

everything comes from the source, the power you draw is available to everyone in different forms, besides have you ever questioned it's source ?? (there are different agendas up there, as you know ...)

"real lightworker" is another judgement, and we do have limits here, as slow motion to help soul understand it's limitations (this belief will take me further than believing everything is safe and sound, thank you)

belief in karma mechanics leads to balanced giving and receiving, as well as dealing with situations from past lives, when i can do it now why should i postpone it for later, and move further now, not later

the same with god experiment
if there is no god and we believe, what do we lose -nothing
if there is god and we believe, we gain eternity
if there is god and we don't believe, we lose everything

if we believe that everything up-there is messed up, and we are fragments of souls tangled by karma, and it isn't so, what do we lose - nothing
if we believe that everything up there is messed-up, and it is, we can go beyond previous limitations
if we believe that everything up-there is ok, and it isn't, we return here to believe the same over and over again, and ultimately stagnate, and become lost

what do you choose ??

[pmlonline]

It is surprising to see the answers in this forum.  For those who are close to Initiates and Adepts will know for certain that the goal is to surrender to the Higher Self.

How you surrender to the Higher Self is through the Heart and Mind.  It is through Purity, Compassion, Agape Love, Service to Others, seeking Knowledge and studying, controlling & developing the Physical body, the Astral / Desire body, the Concrete Mind, release all ambitions and desires.

The goal in life is to surrender to the Higher Self, not a get quick Kundalini raising, psychic abilities, OBE's, etc.  The goal is for everyone to help each other.  It is not about me, me, me.  The me, me, me is for those who desire Matter.  Service to Others is for those who strive for Spirit.  Until one realize that and begins the true spiritual journey they will be bound by an endless cycle of reincarnations.  This will eventually lead to black magic and the Lower Self misses the Earth Period.  When they miss the Earth Period they will become the next demonic spirits for the next human kingdom in the next Period.  The present Animal kingdom will become the next Humans in the next Period.  What we now call the demonic and luciferian spirits are simply those from the Angelic kingdom who missed their great cycle when they were Humans in the Moon Period.  They are the fallen Angels.  They were held back to our cycle and were not allowed to continue on.  We will be the next Angelic kingdom and the present Angelic Kingdom will become the next Archangels.  The present Archangels will become the next Lords of Mind, and then Lords of Form, and then Lords of Individuality, and then Lords of Wisdom, and then Lords of Flame, and then Cherubim, and then Seraphim ...

I understand that to many this spiritual path may be painful and a difficult process.  The Physical applies pressure to eat junk food.  When one becomes master of the Physical they will no longer experience pain and pressure.  They enjoy eating healthy.

The undeveloped Desire / Astral body is the beast within.  It is ones self-demons.  The beast applies pressure in seeking self-pleasure from emotions, chakras, etc.  The beast is cunning and will do whatever necessary to maintain control.  Becoming mastering of the Desire body is a path of great pain, the death of that beast within.  For it shall fight to the death, of lust, desire, and millennia of habits.  But it is a cleansing process.  When the Desire body is transformed it becomes a body of great Beauty!

For me the Mind was much easier to master.  For the average person, the mind is a turbulent sea.  When one learns to control the mind, there is a calming.  It is like an ocean of hurricanes turning into a calm still body of water as smooth as glass.  From that still lake you will begin to see the reflection of God.

That being said, it is not wise to try to master everything at once.  For some, baby steps are best.  For some, giant leaps are best.  Attempting too much at once will lead to a great fall.  Stagnating leads to unnecessary pain in the long run.  Through trial and error each can learn their optimum pace.

To master all three means liberation.  One becomes a 3rd degree Initiate.  This is liberation from the wheel of life, reincarnating in the physical world.  It is the surrender of the Higher Self.  One then has a choice whether to stay on the wheel of life and become an Avatar or they may do what most decide which is move on to the spiritual worlds.  A 3rd degree Initiate has 24/7 continuity of consciousness.  That is, they never loose consciousness.  When they go to bed, they simply slip out of body and into the Etheric, Astral, and Mental planes to be of service.  There is also play and learning time.  When they return to the physical body they recall everything.
The goal of a 3rd degree Initiate is to surrender to the Divine Self and become an Adept.

It's really a beautiful transformation.

Peace & Love,
Paul

[jilola]

"real lightworker" is another judgement, and we do have limits here, as slow motion to help soul understand it's limitations (this belief will take me further than believing everything is safe and sound, thank you)

I can't quite agree there although I see what you're getting at. The soul has no limits. None. Nada. Zip. The soul is what and who we are, a Man is with what we have chosen to express ourselves.
We have assumed by choice a perspective to who and what we are for reasons that are as varied as there are people, the most prevalent being to understand what it is that the soul actually is by way of limiting the potential in various ways.

pmonline: We are the beast and the tamer.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[daem0n]

i'll put it another way
i'll believe in anything that will allow me to widen my awareness and allow me (and within this framework all that i am) to trespass limitations
this belief system only supports means to do it
i don't believe in anything i haven't experienced, this mental construct is only for purpose of further exploration, it may be or may be not, doesn't matter at all
since i experienced memories from past lives i say that there is reincarnation, but until i did that it was only framework to explore myself further, a sketch one may say

fake it till you make it (within reason, of course, i couldn't levitate for beans)
nothing is real
everything is permitted
i found good explanation for this here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/eso/chaos/cybercft.txt
more details about it in repatterning psyche topic, skip beggining and start from external faces
freedom from belief, exploring further

[jilola]

Daem0n:

i don't believe in anything i haven't experienced

There may be expressed the most beneficial take on our physical existence.

The "Fake it till you make it" from Chaos Magick (was it Psychonaut or Liber Null? I forget. Thereabouts anyway)  suffers from the fact that it assumes there is something (failure) that is not IT and something (success) that is IT.

A belief system acts as a hindrance when the systems is taken as the only perspective to reality. "Faking it" is giving priority importance to somethign else.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

[daem0n]

The "Fake it till you make it" from Chaos Magick (was it Psychonaut or Liber Null? I forget. Thereabouts anyway)  suffers from the fact that it assumes there is something (failure) that is not IT and something (success) that is IT.

A belief system acts as a hindrance when the systems is taken as the only perspective to reality. "Faking it" is giving priority importance to somethign else.

2cents & L&L
Jouni

expecting ways in which effect should manifest through defined belief thus limiting experience ?? and discarding "failed" approaches
hmm,  i can see where it goes
so it is all back to old(new) information magic

you state what you will
you state that your statement will be powered up
add your own energy
(you can skip  these two parts )
wait

or gnosis ... but it is severaly limited  in pre-preparations

yes, the belief system becomes just a tool, faking is the way to  achieve desired effect on reality (or should i say perceived reality)
hmmm,, i still miss something

[Leo Volont]

Dear Tayesin,

"Going with the Flow" is a very Stoic Philosophy or Taoist type of thing.  The highest goal such Systems were after was peace of mind.  It was their version of Stress Therapy.  I wonder about Systems that equate Ego Reduction to simple 'stop worrying about it'.

Ever since Catholic Christianity and Mahayana Buddhism there has been a Higher Moral Vision of seeing Life as a Moral Challenge.  We can sacrifice our own Peace of Mind in order to bring Charity to others and relieve Suffering.  We can live for the betterment of the World and not simply to minimize our own pain, which was the Stoic and Taoist goals.

Surrender means two different things, depending on the system we adhere to.  Surrender to the Stoic or Taoist is simple depersonalization -- exert no force or effort into ones being or environment.  Distance yourself from yourself -- make oneself 'inanimate'.  It is like when you are getting your teeth drilled --  think about being on a South Seas beach sipping a drink in a coconut shell with a little umbrella sticking up outta the top.  Again, it amounts to the ancient version of a modern Cooping with Stress Seminar.  But in the Higher Moral System, surrender means taking sides actively with our Conscience.  Forgetting our convenience.  Disregarding our stress levels.  Being willing to go against the flow.... to do what is right.