Agnosticism and Atheism

[Avalon]

Thanks Greatoutdoors.  That poem was profound.

D

[galacticsurfer]

I have gone through several religious and agnostic/atheistic phases in my life. I was raised catholic(just a nice boring ritual when you gow up in it actually) in Alaska and at 11 years of age I got interested in a pentecostal church around the corner as we were friends with the kids from the preacher's family. I learned to sing, read my bible, etc. but got disuillusioned after several years that I could not feel this sort of "happiness" all the time which  i had initially felt and I made too many rules for myself of sin and saw too much hypocrisy, etc. I started going then to a catholic youth group and a catholic charismatic group which is sort of a cross between pentecostals and catholics which sort of fitted me. After I got into high school basically I became agnostic and learned science, humanism and modern skepticism as my religion. At about 21 I decided through a sort of revelation in one moment looking up at the empty summer sky that I was alone and that there was nothing else in the universe but myself. I then took the attitude that the god concept was simply a santa claus lie for adults invented by authorities to keep us happy(religion is the opium of the masses).This feeling of beautiful emptiness was hard to maintain, a very rarefied type of feeling(nirvana,etc.) so that I came back down to earth and had to deal with people and feelings again. So I doubted this sort of purist atheism which leaves no room for anything at all, just emptiness.

This experience however finally opened my heart to new ideas on reality generally speaking. At about 25 I moved to England for a year(my mother is English)and later to Germany. I experimented in England with various meditation courses and a bit of martial arts. The meditation had some short term mind altering effects which were convincing but I could not maintain the intensity of the first experience and dropped it.

At 30 I got my current job and had so much stress in the first months that I thought I would go crazy and decided to start again with some yoga and simple form of mantra meditation. This increased my inner peace and the yoga made me much more peaceful on the physical level. I read "Autobiogaraphy of a Yogi" a few years later on a return trip to Alaska and got all excited about what I had read. Miracles like in the Bible but that anyone could acheive through a specific training and a whole new cosmology was portrayed. I learned the breathing techniques to awaken the energy and after a couple of years had slowly awakened kundalini and could feel this throughout my body.

I had to stop with my energy raising practices after a couple of years as it was getting to be too much for me(headaches and such). 2 years ago I learned Tai Chi to round off my experiences with the body. Only last summer did I again get over the fact that I had had to stop doing my breathing and meditation work which I felt of as a sort of personal and moral failure to my kriya yoga group and teacher. I started learning all sorts of new things like Sufi meditation, Feng Shui, Indian and Chinese Astrology until I found something that would be able to get me out of my rut. I found this finally in Holosync meditation CDs in September which seemed to have a positive effect and have given me a real boost. In March I felt incredibly happy suddenly and could not say why(long term holosync effect likely) and then I started always remembering my dreams and discovered lucid dreaming sites and RBs site on internet. I have had several lucid dreams in the last several weeks and find an intensified stability and happiness throgh the increased stability of my energy body(NEW and Chakra stimulation during the night) in connection with the higher contact with my subconscious(dream analysis/lucidity in dreams).

To say I believe in God would be too simple and a lie. My conscious mind is just the tip of the iceberg and does not know much beyond the logic of what it sees and remains at heart a logical skeptical modern atheist/agnostic. The subconscious is more part of my emotional / energy body (I feel therefore I am). The experiences I gain with my energy body through my myriad spiritual practices(increased feelings of happiness and love for others and self control in all situations) are very, very real and my conscious mind accepts this as being true inasmuch as it can see/feel the results. Everyone wants to be happy. God as a distant theory was never any good to me, regardless of religion/ dogma. I just switch/add techniques when I do not feel a deepening spirituality through what I am currently into. The more happier I am closer I presume I am to this "god" whatever that may be.

Ramana Maharshi was asked by a muslim if god could take on form or was formless and he asked the muslim inreturn if he himself had form although in reality he was only a spirit, thereby answering his question. The argument about atheism / agnosticism is really one of asking is there more to it than the pure physical before our eyes. Einstein and quantum mechanics already answered this question from the scientific standpoint.

Rama Krisha questioned one of his new disciples if he believed in God with or without form, and he replied that he was atheist/agnostic being still undecided, which honest answer Ramakrishna admired. In Eastern religions the existence of physical deities can be accepted or rejected dependent on individual belief.Ramana Maharshi was obviously saying it could be both ways.

Ramakrishna is an interesting example. He achieved the samadhi state of pure nothingness for 6 months then had to come down and lived in an extremely intense world of feelings afterwards saying he lived between the pure nothingness of the highest samadhi and the normal world of feelings represnted by his brow chakra.  His samadhi teacher did not believe in the personified god but only in the abstract reality and did not accept experiencing life through feelings but was taught otherwise by a miracle he observed of the goddess Kali who chose to appear to him to prove God could indeed take on form in the beauty of nature and feelings, the ever changing feminine shakti and not just the masculine Shiva form of abstract logic.  

Western Christian dogma imposed by Constantine under his simplistic ideas which rejected gnostic thinking popular at the time in Coptic and other chrisitan churches(the development of the individual godlikeness similar to indian ideas) in favor of a literal interpretation of Jesus as God to be worshipped as intermediary in a ritualist manner helped cement the Roman empire under one religion and was very practical and Roman and had probably little to do with Chrisitanity as practiced in most cases back then. This historical break has caused the problems "we" as christians experience in our experience of God as being separate from ourselves somewhere abstract like santa claus or an old man on a throne. True religion is in us and god is different for everyone depending on their own very personal experience.

Galactic

[greatoutdoors]

Avalon,

Glad you liked it!

Galactic,

Wow! That's quite a history, and I appreciate your sharing. Two things I'm curious about. You say you move on to other studies when the current one no longer affects you strongly (I'm paraphrasing and may have the intent wrong [:I]). What I'm hoping to discover is a path I can follow "forever", be it meditation, or whatever. Are you saying that is not likely to happen? And you mentioned you had to give up energy raising because of physical problems. I already fight with headaches frequently. I was hoping to fix it, not make it worse! Can you elaborate a bit more on that?

Thanks!

[howlinghenry]

Reading this thread I'm reminded of one of Richard Dawkins' sayings.  I can't quote it word for word, but it's something like this.  When it comes to Apollo, Zeus, Mars, Mithras, Horus, etc, etc, we are are all atheists.  Some of us just go a bit further and include the Christian god in the list, that's all.

HH

[galacticsurfer]

Great Outdoors,

I remember someone asked here in the thread something similar to " why do people lose their faith sometimes and then regain it".  I tried to answer that with my story and examples given as just being different phases of consciousness which are just as important and real and that personal development is the only way to see what we believe personally.

I think hanging on to one technique when it just stops working for you (at least after like months or a year of total spiritual stagnation) is a bad thing. "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds"(emerson or thoreaus). I mean - you get in a rut. It becomes too linear and uncreative and boring. Once you try something else you see that actually the two techniques are similar but the other group just sees it from another angle. After awhile you mix lots of things like an artist or musician who develop their own style. I think we all do that. I read Autobiography of a Yogi and Yogananda had several influential Gurus before he settled down with Sri Yukteswar and agfterwards he did it also somewhat differently from his Guru. Every person has really individual needs and problems and we have to hope we stumble across the right "medicine "for our problem, like findng the right marriage partner, a very tricky business indeed.

Sure I got headaches. I had to stop the specific sort of Kundalini Pranayama prescribed in Kria Yoga having done over 100,00 times in a couple of years. My body got used to it but even a few weeks ago as I thought I could try it again for a few days it really screwed me up(pains in arms and whole left side). For example I had to reduce yoga asanas from 5-6 times a week down to 3 times a week as it stimulates energy body too much with my heavy back bends. So I started doing Tai Chi on my off days from Yoga (Tuesday, Thursday) as I thought I did not get enough exercise and Tai Chi is not so energy body intensive. On the weekends I do not do any energy body work or sport and even take naps to recover my energy body and my muscles.  Since I could not do sitting meditation without developing too much energy in the run of the week I was disappointed generally about my development. However I thought it is easier to pick it up again soemetime later than to  relearn the splits or complicated Tai chi moves. In other words it was a tradeoff decision on what sort of energy work I kept on doing as i had to give up something.

Doing The jholosync CDs seemed like the simple way of getting back into medtiation. I did that 2 weeks in a row every day and had to take a whole week off to recover my energy body from overload even though I did not necessarily do that in a strict meditation position. Being in Delta seems to really stimulate energy body. So I do that only twice a week now. their 12 year program could last 40 years for me at that rate but who cares I have to so something until I am 80 and it seems to work well enough.

I tried out RBs NEW and discoverd that my energy had been really centered in my trunk and always went straight up to my head and did not spread out over my whole energy body before this. Now it uses my whole body much more efficiently, dissipating or increasing towards my limbs instead of blocking in my trunk and head and burning up in my hips or back or shoulders. This is all very practical. If you have done any yoga you know that props are important to get where you want in extreme positions. Basically anything goes. I used to stick a towel under the refrigerator and slowly pull myself towards it with my legs split until I came down to the ground with my face completely to the ground(sideways splits). I mean if you get religion about a particular religion you are making a mistake. Basically it is all technique to get by our actual limitations of our body and to see reality( a spiritual Guru like Jesus or Babaji is of course always cool for inspiration).

I remember reading about the now dead physicist Richard Feynman who in high school just irreverently found out his own ways (which were much better than in the textbooks) to solve physcis problems and later simplified a lot of standard work in physics calculations, coming from a sort of engineering background. He saw that most of the students saw quantum physics and relativity in awe as a religion practically speaking and were afraid to touch it and put their own imprint on it. this hinders progress and understanding was his idea.

If we in a very real way are God(like part of some hologram) then we should not be afraid of making our own routine based on what works best for us individually. If you join a group and go every week to their medtitatation sessions and on your own read the ideas of completely different religious groups your friends at the meditation group will not necessarily be too open to your "alternative" techniques and philosophies. This seems to be the main hurdle. It is social. That is whay I probably just learn from internet and books anymore.

[Skamoni]

Can you really say that atheism is a religion, because i though that religion was belief and atheism is no belief. Its like black is the absense of colour it isnt one itself. Just a thought

[cainam_nazier]

An Atheist "believes" that there is no god.  It is not the same as just not believing in a god.  Do you follow what I mean?

[Skamoni]

I get what you mean. But i still think that they dont "believe", they have no "belief". But you do make a good point. I still think its just a way to catergorize religions. Im dyslexic so some word or phrases might be mispelt.

[Beth]

This thread is specifically created to discuss Agnosticism and Atheism.

By definition according to Websters:

Agnosticism: a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and prob. unknowable;  broadly   : one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god

Atheism: a disbelief in the existence of deity  b : the doctrine that there is no deity

So, if there is anyone who would like to explore the ideas of these modes of thought, this is your thread!

I will check in and add anything that I can.

Peace,
Beth

[You]

I am an Agnostic. My standpoint on all issues is Atheist, as it's the most sensible one to take until you are otherwise convinced of any form of supernatural being's existence.

Despite this, I believe that Atheist dogma is illogical.

How can one disprove the existence of any god, when theoretically a 'god' is beyond the perception of man, and thus can hide from all means of detection, and thus, being proved real or fake?

Even if all religious dogma today is disproved, it doesn't mean that there isn't a god (or gods, or flying sea turtles) presiding over us in ways we cannot ever perceive. Theoretically, yes, they could be, and we'd never know because that is their nature.

Yet the Atheist standpoint must be taken, as until evidence is provided, for purposes of our thoughts and interactions, they do not exist.

But they might!

Edit: I had to add this. Christian arguments for having to believe in Christ and God before you can see or experience them seems like a load of hooey to me. They gave a similar argument on 'The Santa Clause' starring Tim Allen. That's great, but for the realm of fairy tales.

Real things you can see, even if you don't believe it can happen. People who saw airplanes for the first time probably couldn't believe their eyes!

The only ones who have to believe and not see things are the creators, they must visualize it, and thus bring it to life. Temporary belief is a hypothesis, made permanent by proof.

[StaticExperiment]

I disagree with cainam_nazier.  I am atheist.  It's not that I believe there is no god, although that is a true statement.  I consider it a fact, not a belief.

I think there is enough scientific evidence that can explain most of the events in the bible and Torah.  I'm not saying that the entire thing is just a work of fiction, rather it was a true story taken out of hand.  Think about it, if you want people to remember something you will exaggerate it.  Whoever initially wrote it all down decided to add in all kinds of embellishments to make it more interesting.  So now we have people turning into salt, people putting animals on boats that should have mauled Noah to death, people parting bodies of water... it goes on.

And playing devils advocate (no pun intended) for a moment...  If homosexual people are so wrong and are going against the bible and whatnot, then why did god create them?  If god did exist, he'd just be a giant hypocrite.  God is supposed to be responsible for creating everything in existence, therefore he is responsible for creating homosexual people... which according to the bible is wrong.

[cainam_nazier]

The point being that you "believe" the statement to be factual.

To put a spin on it.  Truth, fact, and law in science stand heavily on your belief, or trust, in the information presented before you.

If you do not trust or believe in the information being supplied to you, no matter it's volume or multitude of sources then you can not believe some thing to be truth, fact, or law.  And what ever it is will most likely remain that way until you have a personal, be it spiritual or physical,  experience with it.

[You]

While you may be able to disprove the bible's logic pertaining to God, it is impossible to disprove the existence of a type of god, period. That's why you can't claim there are, for a fact, no gods, for it will never be a fact. It can be a likelihood, which is why agnostics generally live with atheist standpoints, but not beliefs.

It's a little thing to be argued about.

[Gandalf]

The above post highlights a problem which I find is all to common with people in the US. They prove or disprove 'god' using bible sources.

Remember there are many other conceptions of 'god' than the biblical one.. the problem is that most people in the US are not exposed to any other belief system; this can be seen by the common question 'do you believe in the bible?', a negative answer usually followed by an accusation of atheism, implying that belief in 'god' and the bible have to be one and the same... actually they are not.

There are many other conceptions of god out there than just the middle-eastern varient (that is,  judaism, christianity & islam).

What about Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, neo-paganism, confucianism etc. and these are only the mainstream varients.

Just because you dont accept the christian bible does not mean you dont believe in 'god', whatever you conceive that word to mean; never mind what your local preacher has to say. You have to open your eyes, there's a big world out there outside of the local church down the road.

Douglas

[cainam_nazier]

Tyciol is from Canada, eh.  Not the US.  

But any how.

You make a very good point, which is why that if I was forced to pick a religion I would go for poly-theism.  More options = better chance of getting it right.

But I digress.

More often than not I will not ask a person if they believe in God but rather if they believe in a god.  Unless of course I already know what religion they are or claim to be.  Then I will ask them questions specific to their god or gods.  

This developed mostly because I know far too many pagans....mostly wiccans.  You have no idea how many of them I run across.  There is an insane wiccan population in Arizona.

[Gandalf]

Tyciol is from Canada, eh. Not the US.

True, but then my post was not directed at him, but as a general comment about the US religious situation (generelly speaking).

I think this is a justifed point as i find this situation in no other country to the same extent.... the tedious regularity of the question 'do you believe in the bible' pops up there more often than anywhere else.


cainam_nazier you bring up some good points and i would agree with you about asking people if they believe in 'a' god rather than just 'god' as that is a rather loaded question, unless of course you are already pretty clear as to their basic beliefs.

Doug

You have no idea how many of them I run across. There is an insane wiccan population in Arizona.


Glad to hear it!

[Mister Anjilek]

Just my 2cents incoming-

I was raised Christian. I was raised in a denomination that chose that all miraculous events had ceased and we were to live on faith alone(not true of all denominations). Later, I was introduced to the Pentecostal denomination. They believe and even expect the miraculous to occur daily. From healings and Shikina(sp?) to speaking and understanding unknown languages. When I approached my parents about these things, my mother said," I used to pray in tongues all the time, and your father has a true gift for prophecy!". I was completely floored.

At this point we began to discuss all manner of things, but most importantly world religions. My mothers explanation was one that has stuck in the back of my head since then, and I am now finding it easier to admit to myself.

There is a higher power, and that power may be found in all the religions of the world. If that power has a consciousness separate from humanity, then it would need to present it's prophets in different ways to different cultures. If it is a common consciousness which we all stem from, different prophets may have reached "enlightenment" through different ways.

I think this falls right in line with the current discussion. Many paths lead to a deep sense of spirituality. Remaining open is the key. Some "religions" may offer something you need today, and some may offer something you need tomorrow.

Another important aspect IMO is that almost all major religions and many minor ones have such similar belief structures. Whether they call energy Chakra or Holy Spirit or Chi, they are all most likely the same thing. Whether you call it Visions or Projecting, or you see guardian angels or guides. The metaphysical correlations all seem to be very similar, although achieved by different paths, and with the intent being somewhat different.

I now believe very strongly in the notion of Earth School. Something higher that my physical self has placed my consciousness here for the purpose of learning and experiencing something. As I go through the day, I am on look out for lessons. I am looking for experiences that I may need to grow further. But ultimately, I am connected to the higher power, and that gives me great strength and alot of control over my life.

[greatoutdoors]

Mister Anjilek, I like your mother's comments, especially as relates to "if" the higher power has a consciousness. That strikes a responsive cord!  

StaticExperiment, how can you say "it is a fact" that there is no god? How do you prove the absence of anything? I think you phrased it better when you left it as your belief.

Gandalf, if you were Christian, or Jewish and were discussing your beliefs, wouldn't it be logical to use the foundation book of your faith as a source? What else would they use? And why do you seem to view that use almost as a condemnation?

Just some thoughts, hopefully more later.  

[Gandalf]

Gandalf, if you were Christian, or Jewish and were discussing your beliefs, wouldn't it be logical to use the foundation book of your faith as a source?

Yes but I'd also expect people to be at least *aware* of other conceptions of 'god' as well as the one you are brought up in... otherwise this results in ignorance and narrow-mindedness, an all too comon feature of todays world; a good wide ranging conception of world beliefs should be a basic part of all peoples education, whether I am 'christian or jewish'  *or for that matter* Muslim, Hindu, Sikh, Buddhist, Taoist and so on.. ever heard of them?
You may be suprised but there IS a hell of a lot of people out there who are completely ignorant of any other religion outside of their local church down the road.

Douglas

[cainam_nazier]

True, but then my post was not directed at him, but as a general comment about the US religious situation (generally speaking).

My bad.  But to continue.

I do find it kinda funny that in a land based heavily on the idea of religious freedom that there is in fact one particular idea of religion that is forced upon us at a very early age.  Anybody who says that is not is already a member of the God umbrella.  This starts with the pledge of allegiance.  "One nation, under God.."  Being outside the US probably makes this easier to see.  

And I totally just forgot where else I was going to go with this...Okay, Moving on.

Another important aspect IMO is that almost all major religions and many minor ones have such similar belief structures. Whether they call energy Chakra or Holy Spirit or Chi, they are all most likely the same thing. Whether you call it Visions or Projecting, or you see guardian angels or guides. The metaphysical correlations all seem to be very similar, although achieved by different paths, and with the intent being somewhat different.

This is some thing else that I don't really understand with people.  It seems that many believe not so much in their experience but rather the labels that they bring to it.  So unfortunately we will forever hear the arguments about god/not god, angels/guides, and which "energy" is best to use when in all likelihood there is no difference between them except the labels we put on them.  Just ask your local DBZ fanatic.

You have no idea how many of them I run across. There is an insane wiccan population in Arizona.


Glad to hear it!

Honestly it's a little deeper than that for me.  Get a group of 100 people together I could probably separate out the wiccans.  I can almost feel when one enters the room, they don't even have to say anything.

[You]

How exactly does my post highlight any problems Gandalf?

I say you can't disprove God.

You similarly can't prove him.

Care to correct me? If you do on either count, then Agnosticism has failed. Agnosticism applies not just to God, but to anything supernatural, or any undiscovered concepts and theories.

[Gandalf]

Tyciol_

Chill out, I was just taking issue with your basic use of the word 'god' as in 'do you believe in god?' as this is a slightly more loaded question than at first apears as there are many perceptions of divinity and 'god' or 'gods'.
Actually, I'm not taking issue as such, just pointing out that there are far more varients of what divinity is than just the familiar notion of the west; in questioning your common assumptions of 'god' it may be useful to go out and look at other conceptions as you may find something out there more to your liking.. the problem is that a lot of people (in the west) are completely unaware of these ideas.

Douglas

[Mister Anjilek]

I do find it kinda funny that in a land based heavily on the idea of religious freedom that there is in fact one particular idea of religion that is forced upon us at a very early age.  Anybody who says that is not is already a member of the God umbrella.  This starts with the pledge of allegiance.  "One nation, under God.."  Being outside the US probably makes this easier to see.  

While I agree with the idea that America is heavily Christian biased, although I disagree with the "under God" argument. God is an English word, in an English speaking country, that encompasses a whole lot of meanings. Some refer to their higher self as God, some a supreme being. There are so many interpretations that it is largely a blanket statement.

The only person it should offend is the true, hardcore atheist. The person that believes there is no metaphysical/spiritual realm and thinks we are born, work then die.

I, for one, am thankful that the word God appears in so many of our governments workings. It at least opens the door for discussion, and may instill an interest in our children to seek beyond the physical realm.

No, as for the negative, one religion does dominate the scene in America. Many people are ignorant about other religions and create negative stereotypes as a result. Most Christian churches don't want to emphasize the positive of other religions. They only want their congregation to be able to refute other religions, and hopefully convert others to Christianity. I often make my close friend, and Christian minister laugh when I tell him," Buddhists are the best Christians". It is the fault of the institution and not of the teachings that the church is this way.

But make no mistake, we have religious freedom. We may choose any path we want. We are free to practice as we see fit. If we choose to not fall into the habits of a Lemming, we are free to discover all that there is.  We don't have to worry about being thrown in jail or worse for simply attempting to explore other religions.

I for one believe in the Life School way of thinking. Maybe all these peoples higher selves chose to reincarnate as Christians to experience that way of life for one reason or another. Maybe the religion has some insight that they need to learn.

The Life School method also helps me to see no one person/thing/action as negative, and has really helped me relieve stress, and learn to relax and meditate. Everything that happens might very well be some part of a life lesson, and if we look hard, maybe we can find it. And if we find it, it might resolve the issue for us personally as to whether there is or isn't a higher being.

[greatoutdoors]

Gandalf, you raise a good point about awareness. Agreed, there are many folks in the world who have limited knowledge of ideas beyond their own birth faith. I expect very little from people as a whole, and I am rarely disappointed.   My family has two couples who have recently "found the faith" (doesn't matter what faith). Other members of the family just can't stand 'em. I don't understand the animosity. What does it hurt to listen to someone talk? You don't have to take it as your own dogma.

As to your thought about ignorance -- oh yes, no argument! But that's not limited to any specific religion. Ignorance may be bliss, but it's also really, really common!  

Cainam_Nazier, so what is it about wiccans you notice?  And where would you put me, if you had guess?  

I agree that America (so far) is predominantly Christian, but I disagree that it is forced on anyone. No one has told me I "must" be a Christian, nor have I been refused employment or housing or (take your pick) because of religion, or lack of same. I'm coming from a U.S. perspective, but logic tells me the same situation would apply in England. Both countries are predominantly Christian. So, so what? I do not take offense at the beliefs of any other being -- we are all following our path, as we perceive it to be. Mister Anjilek, I think I am basically recapping what you already said.

I just wish with all my being that we could lose the anger! Hatred is perhaps the most useless, destructive emotion on this earh of ours! Harm none, in thought, word or deed! (That's not necessarily wiccan, just my goal!) Mind you, I still have my own anger issues to deal with -- I am definitely in the "glass house" mode!  

Tyciol, you have nailed agnosticism! It is not a denial of anything, just an open mind -- in this person's never-to-be-humble opinion. Atheism, on the other hand, is as much a religion as any other, and has produced just as many zealots.

[You]

Atheism is a great standpoint, but since it doesn't employ any supernatural resources, it's incapable of disproving ANY god-figure that claims to be beyond science. *listens to E Nomine*