Agnosticism and Atheism

[cainam_nazier]

I have been called an Atheist because I will openly say to people, "There is no god..well not for me."  or "God does exist, but only in the hearts and minds of those who believe."

Most heavy believers take these two lines as insults.  That I am saying that God does not exist.  However I am not saying that.  My view is more that of an Agnostic.  I have no proof of the existance of or non-existance of a god.  By proof I mean that I have had no personal experience to say yes or no.  But by logic the lack of evidence points to the non-existance.  But also I have no real desire or need to find the answers to this riddle.

Because of my experiences thus far I have adapted more of the "personal God" idea.  That being if you are set out to prove then you will find exactly what you are looking for.  The same if you are out to disprove.  Because of that god is not some thing that can be shared by everyone.  You can only know god on an individual level and not on a group one.  This make the whole god/no god experience a very personal one with no resulting physical evidence to support it.

Hence the personal god idea.

[beavis]

"God) is unknown and prob. unknowable"

I dont like this closed-minded definition. If something exists, it can probably be known by somebody.

"one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god"

This one is my belief.

[Avalon]

I used to call myself an Agnostic because I was unsure of what it was I believed.  Then I realized I had a problem with the word "belief". My Dad is a Southern Baptist and it was in his church that I realized how much I disagreed with belief systems.  I'm in no way trying to bash anyone's else's religion, by the way, just stating my opinion.  And now, you can see that I always feel I have to back up my statements such as these with a disclaimer that I mean them no ill will. []  However, I won't apologize for my lack of faith or disagreement.  Not even to my Dad.

I have no religion.  I've never been baptised or been a regular member of any church.   Because of this, I've been called a heathen and been told I'm going to hell when I die.  And those people who call me those things don't realize that those ideas don't faze me because I don't believe in hell and I don't believe I'm a heathen!

I get the argument from Christian believers that it's something they feel, not think or experience.  I've never "felt" it.  I've never even read about any religion that I whole heartedly agree with.

My argument for people who are believers of any religion is to imagine they were born on a desert island where there were no belief systems, do you think you would end up believing in the same God and dogma that you do right now at this moment?  Would you eventually "feel" your faith and beliefs?

I do believe though that there is more to life than what meets the eye.  There are things around us we don't see and notice because we are too caught up in the physical.  It's not something I feel, it's more like something I know, or have known before.

[beavis]

Avalon I get the argument from Christian believers that it's something they feel, not think or experience.

I get that same argument from them. I think I know what they're feeling: the start of "vibrations" or something similar. Vibrations confuse them because they've never felt anything like it, so it must be the christian god.

imagine they were born on a desert island where there were no belief systems, do you think you would end up believing in the same God and dogma that you do right now at this moment?

I've asked them similar questions. They usually say yes because the bible is gods word and it couldnt possibly be wrong so god would make sure I learned about it somehow on that island. Then I usually go talk to somebody more open-minded.

If I was on the island, my beliefs would probably be the same, because they are derived mostly from experience and a little from theory. Any theory is valid, from any religion, science, from an idiot, anything. But if the theory doesnt predict anything that happens to me correctly, it gradually loses weight in my mind until it is completely gone.

Buddha Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not believe in traditions because they have been handed down for many generations. Do not believe anything because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do not believe in anything because it is written in your religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of your teachers and elders. But after observation and analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is conducive to the good and the benefit of one and all, then accept it and live up to it.

I might have been a buddhist all my life and not known it [?]

[Avalon]

Hahaha!  I was just coming back here to apologize for that rambling load of rubbish I just typed out!  

Once again, thanks for your reply.[^]

I really love the looks I get from people when I tell them I don't believe in sin.

I think I'm starting to enjoy saying things like that to people just for shock value! Bwwwwaaaahahahahaha!

[Avalon]

quote:Originally posted by beavis

Avalon
I think I know what they're feeling: the start of "vibrations" or something similar. Vibrations confuse them because they've never felt anything like it, so it must be the christian god.

I wanted to respond to this because I had a similar experience the first time I attempted to OBE.  Most of the techniques I read were from a very methodical (not spiritual) point of view.  But as I lay there quieting my mind, I realized I could induce some sort of feeling of movement of something from my feet to my abdomen.  I had NO idea what I was doing but it felt familiar (like I had done it before) and intuitive and was the right thing to do.  I know now I was moving energy through my body.  Possibly the onset of early vibrations.

I didn't have any previous experience or knowledge of what was happening.  I "felt" it was right.  I didn't label it as spiritual or coming from God.  I did it intentionally and consciously without prior knowledge.

That one experience will never leave my mind because it was something I discovered on my own.  Self-discovery is an amazing thing.

[Aristoles]

I'm an agnostic.

I know i believe in a deity,i just dont know which one.

[mustang]

Yeah it obviously makes no difference whether you believe in the gods or not, doesn't make you a better or wiser person either way. The problem with believing in God is that the god a person believes in is usually just a projection of a person's fears, desires, ignorance, prejudices, hopes, egotism and character - which is why most people's gods seem to be devils. A case of man making god in his own image. Personally I do not doubt in the existence of divinity, but I do not believe in divinity any more than I believe that the earth is round and orbits the sun or that society is insane; I know the earth is round and orbits the sun and that society is insane, it has nothing to do with belief.

On the subject of the quoted speech of the Buddha's, it gets to the crux of the problem in society, doesn't it? I think that the central problem in our world is the reverance for authority, all authority; believing whatever you are told to believe - by your parents and elders, teachers, priests, journalists, economists, politicians, scientists etc. But god forbid people think for themselves, I guess that would mean having to take responsibility for their own lives, and who wants that, really?

[Avalon]

quote:Originally posted by mustang

Yeah it obviously makes no difference whether you believe in the gods or not, doesn't make you a better or wiser person either way. The problem with believing in God is that the god a person believes in is usually just a projection of a person's fears, desires, ignorance, prejudices, hopes, egotism and character - which is why most people's gods seem to be devils. A case of man making god in his own image. Personally I do not doubt in the existence of divinity, but I do not believe in divinity any more than I believe that the earth is round and orbits the sun or that society is insane; I know the earth is round and orbits the sun and that society is insane, it has nothing to do with belief.

On the subject of the quoted speech of the Buddha's, it gets to the crux of the problem in society, doesn't it? I think that the central problem in our world is the reverance for authority, all authority; believing whatever you are told to believe - by your parents and elders, teachers, priests, journalists, economists, politicians, scientists etc. But god forbid people think for themselves, I guess that would mean having to take responsibility for their own lives, and who wants that, really?

Agree completely.  I think the reason that I choose not to believe in the Christian God is because of the reasons you listed above.  Part of me doesn't WANT to believe in a God as he is portrayed in some religions.  He does seem to be more a devil than an unconditional loving God.  Why the hell send us here in the first place?

There are people in this world that NEED to have God-fear to make it through their lives.  Or at least they think they need it to be productive members of society.  No way do I believe one needs to believe in God to be a good person.  Has nuthin' to do with it at all.

[The AlphaOmega]

I use to be athiest.  I believed with all my heart and soul that there was no way God could exist, and only listened to facts that supported my idea.  It was only untill I considered the POSSIBILITY and opened my mind that I began seeing things that helped me realize why God does exist.  Christ himself said, "It is impossible not to believe what you see.  It is equally impossible to see what you do not believe".  I don't agree with people trying to push God onto others.  But likewise, it's just as rude to try and convince a Christian there is no God.  It's not our job as humans to make everyone believe as we do, but instead accept them for what they are.  Only God can convince someone of His existence, but in order for Him to do so you must allow it.  He is patiently waiting outside your door, but you must open it and invite Him in.  Cheesy I know, but true.  You will know He is true not because you will see our touch Him, but because of the way your life will grow when He is a part of it.  

BETH:  I have noticed an underlying theme in your topics... are you an Athiest (if you don't mind me asking)?

[Gandalf]

The AlphaOmega;

See the thing is, your words again emphasise this notion that god and 'the christian god' are one and the same and any notions of god outside of christian theology are false.
your words about 'letting god in' etc suggest that only the christian god is the true conception of god,,, I dont accept this.
The christian notion of god is just one amongst many IMO.
(apologies if i have mistaken the meaning of your words!)

I also take exception to the idea that if you dont beleive in the *christian notion of god* then you are 'an athiest', even if you believe in a different notion of god. I come across this attitude all the time among christians, as if the christian version is the only 'True way'.

So NO, I am not a christian and do not believe in the christian notion of god, and NO I am not an athiest and YES I believe in god...

Actually, I think that the reason many people in western society equate belief in 'god' with belief in the 'christian god' is that christianty is the only belief system they have ever been exposed to. Some may have heard vague stories about other faith systems but they dismiss therm as 'mistaken' or 'athiesm' (wrong as I said), which of course suits the church just fine.

Instead, people should get out more.

I also agree that when and if christians start to establish contact with the greater world (including the astal et al) they integrate this into conventianal christian belief, sometimes negativly.

Say they get the vibes and have an obe, their belief system will convince them that they are under attack from 'satan' or something like that, resulting in a truly horrific experience which causes them to retreat even further into the safey of their belief. If only they hadnt been so stuffed full of dogma. If only they had the courage to explore that opportunity, they might have taken the first step into a wider world.

Douglas

PS I also have a problem with people quoting from the bible as if it was fact, saying 'Christ said.... such and such'.
In fact we have no real idea WHAT Christ said, and what has been put in by bible writers later. While I agree that there might well have been a historical figure of Christ (although evidence for this is slim) we actually have next to nothing about what he ACTUALLY said apart from a few parables. There is no way to validitate that anything in the scriptures was actually said by jesus himself, with most of them written later.

The only real message that has come down to us from the man himself (and it is not even cetain what his name was, as 'jesu' was actually quite a common name for a teacher) is that we should love others as we would have them love us and to love your enemy... the later seems to have been forgotten by many christian fundis.

The stuff about him being the son of god etc is hard to substantiate. He may have been talkng metaphorically in that 'we are all sons and daughters of god' but this meaning has been subverted by later church scholars.  
I believe that the man himself, if he did exist, was just that, a man. whats more he was married, possibly to Mary Magdalene, and perhaps had children, and he was later buried somewhere after crucicifction.
Some of hs diciples may have later stolen his body in order to give it a proper burial, leading to the later mythology of his disapearnce nad reserection.

I stress again that this is my view and a view of many others, but those who choose to beleive in the literal version as fact should be able to do so. But they shoudnt try to ram it down others throats by stating it as fact just because it is in the bible. The bible is NOT written in stone, an obvious statement but some people seem to forget this.
Douglas

[Lighthouse]

I'm sure many of you are aware, however for those of you who are not, here's a little tidbit for you to chew on:
___________
Definition:
sin - Greek /hamartia/
Meaning: identical to Greek /hamartano/ : to be without a share in, to miss the mark, to err, to be mistaken, to miss or wander from the path of uprightness and honor.
_____________________

In other words, the word Sin means to make a mistake, to miss the mark... mistakes can be corrected... or not, who cares, it's just a mistake.  They need not be the source of guilt and damnation for all eternity.

I happen to be a metaphysical/spiritual "pipe smoker" as my husband likes to put it.  As far as Christianity is concerned during the time of Constantine and the crusades, thousands and thousands of accounts of the life of Christ were confiscated and destroyed in order to give the church more power and stamp out the earth centered religions (Paganism.)  Additiobnally, Christ had mystical teachings too which were excluded from the bible.  A good source to research this information would be in the Gnostic Gospels.  Elane Pagels gives a great summary in her book of the same title "The Gnostic Gospels" which talks about additional accounts of the teachings of Christ that were found in the Nag Hammadi desert, written in Coptic and transcribed by monks over about a half dozen centuries then hidden in the caves of the Nag Hammadi desert during the crusades.  The entire Nag Hammadi library has been translated and is available on Amazon..  the best translation is the James Robinson edition.

My point in this long winded (or long written to be precise) is that unfortunately Christianity has been severely distorted from the time of Christ and of course the church and many Christians will disagree with me.  I am one of those rare few who believes in the teachings of Christ and like someone else who posted, I also tell people I don't believe in Sin and I don't believe in death... try that one next time []. Even though I believe in the teachings of Christ, I too believe that God dwells within each of us... it is expressed in our intelligence, our creativity and our ability to grow and learn.

Ultimately, I feel that we must all follow the dictates of our own hearts relating to all beliefs and decisions we make.  If we make decisions based on love (which has also been described as the essence of God) we can do no wrong.  To live according to the vicarious dictates of another (like a Baptist preacher father)not only keeps you from experiencing true happiness, but it will ultimately cheat you and the rest of the world of your power and grace.

Additionally, i generally have an aversion to fiction however, about 30 people have told me to read the "Da Vinci Code" which I bought on Saturday and have gotten half way through it.  It summarizes very succinctly in a fiction format many of the things that the church has done in order to gain power over people.  the research for this book is amazing and the author does a stupendous job of showing the reader the discraceful things that the church has done in the name of God.

Lighthouse

[Lighthouse]

One more thing:
--------------
Definition:
repent - Greek  /metanoeo/
Meaning: to change one's mind, to change one's mind for the better, heartily to amend with abhorrence of one's past sins
-----------------
The original language of the bible was Greek.

Lighthouse

[WalkerInTheWoods]

Why is it that we cannot talk about Agnosticism and Atheism without also talking about Christianity?

[Lighthouse]

"The only way in which a human being can make some approach to knowing the whole of a subject is by hearing about it by persons of every variety of opinion and studying all modes in which it can be looked at by every character of mind.  No wise man ever acquired his wisdom in any mode but this." --John Stuart Mill

This is why you will see opposing viewpoints in other forums... so that people can learn and grow in order to expand their own wisdom by gaining feedback and being challenged by the insights of others.  

--Lighthouse

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I am not saying that opposing views are not good. I am asking why does Atheism and Agnosticism seem to go hand in hand with Christianity. You rarely see just Atheism and/or Agnosticism discussed by themself. You don't see Christianity brought up in the Taoism, Buddhism, or Druidism sections. Nor do I seem those brought up here.

I will try to bring this discussion onto topic. []

Christianity offers no true proofs of anything of a divine nature beyond this world. If such were true, then the divine would offer reasonable proof for those "created" by such a divinity with a reasoning, rational mind. No proof is given so even if such a thing should exist it must not be of any importance for us to believe and worship it.

All of the moral and society teachings within Christianity, and all religions, are really based upon common sense and possibly trial and error of what works in order to maintain order within a society.

Love is something we all experience. We all long to be loved and accepted because we are a social species. Safety in numbers. A large group of humans had a much better chance of survival than a lone human. It seems entirely logical that we developed emotions to encourage and maintain social groups inorder to ensure our survival. Love does not prove any divinity exists.

Being social animals love and caring is important for the group. By caring for the group over self the species as a whole is better ensured survival. So love your neighbor only makes sense. It does the group little good if one person eats their fill while others starve. The others die off, one is left, one is less likely to survive.

[Lighthouse]

Fallenangel,

I agree with you.  However, we all come from somewhere and have childhoods.  Many people have been scarred by their upbringing and are trying to find themselves.  The point of reference in the West is mainly from the Judeo/Christian viewpoint.  This is not to say that we must all explore these traditions relating to Agnosticism & Atheism, however, as someone else pointed out earlier in this strand, he was raised by a Baptist Preacher... I will use this as an example since it is a part of this strand... please understand I do not know this person so I will present a hypothetical observation of what I imagine the scenario may have been in this persons childhood and where this person may have felt separate and unloved... it may have no resemblance to the reality of his childhood.  

Undoubtedly, this tradition was shoved down his throat and he was told or made to feel guilty and that by having his own opinions and choosing not to accept God in the way his father demanded, he was rejecting Gods love or separating himself from the love of God.  Children see their parents as the Godhead... not adolescents but little children.  This is where we formulate our basic foundations of our place in the world.  After a while, the discomfort he felt by carrying around this pain came to a point where he had to make a personal decision relating to honoring himself as an individual and he rejected the experiences of his past... then turned to Agnosticism.  In my opinion, the words Love, God and the Universe are all synonomous, therefore, any path one chooses to follow is the right path for him/herself.  I feel there is little if any distinction amongst the three.  Because of my protestant upbringing, I generally tend to use the term God.  ... but I digress.

Many people reject the religion of their childhoods and turn to a period of constant evolution in discovering who they are.  The point of reference though is always their own experience... something that they can not separate themselves from.  This is why in this strand, you will see Agnosticism and Atheism discussed hand and hand with Christianity.  Because the bulk of expereince of many is that of the major western traditions.  Most people in the western world were just not brought up as Druids, Wiccans, Zoroastrians, and Hindus... as my American born Indian husband likes to say, "There were not too many Hindu Temples in Allentown, PA."  

--Lighthouse

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Many people reject the religion of their childhoods and turn to a period of constant evolution in discovering who they are.

I disagree with this. Those that choose to explore beyond what they have been taught, then yes this is true. But I do not think that many people do this when looking at the population as a whole. But I live in the Bible Belt. Almost everyone I meet is of some form of Christianity and never consider anything else. They may switch between different forms of Christainity (if that is what you mean then ok I agree, but that is not what I see you saying), but they never look at other religions such as Islam, Buddism, etc.

[Lighthouse]

Fallenangel,

Personally, I am obsessed with World religions, in my personal library, I have books ranging from Islamic Law and Constitution to several books on the Kabbalah to the Baghavadgita to the Tao te Ching to A Course in Miracles and last year I purchased my first Bible in order to use it as a reference for a personal development book I am writing.  

The world as we see it is merely a reflection of ourselves so you interpret my ideas according to your own personal filter... living in the bible belt, I can see why you see mainly christianity in my posts.  Since that is my upbringing, my point of reference is from that tradition and therefore this makes sense.  My personal philosophy may sound Christian to you and indeed there are some Christian elements to my position, however, I have also incorporated parts of everything I have ever studied into my personal philosophy and therefore feel that my viewpoint is much more well rounded than that of the Christian church(es).  However, as you are perfectly well aware, to determine the depth and breadth of ones knowledge based on a few posts is a very limiting idea. []

I had rejected Christianity in my 20's  because it made no sense to me so I delved into the study of everything but...  I am now a student of A Course in Miracles which is Christian in basis, however, it encourages and promotes self-analysis instead of listening to the ideas of another spewed at a pulpit.  

Personally, I feel we are all Divine beings...  that the reason we are here is to ultimately reunite with each other and experience the high of Cosmic bliss or Consciousness.  To reject the idea of separation and to understand ourselves as God...  Perhaps this sounds like a Christian idea to you, if so... then so be it.  I have come to embrace all ways of light as a means for us to understand ourselves and our divinity.  

The reason I have chosen to engage in the Agnostic/Atheistic strand is to have my own thoughts challenged and come to a better understanding of my own personal development.  Additionally, I invite you to go to my profile and check out my website to gain a better understanding of my personal philosophy.  



--Lighthouse

[WalkerInTheWoods]

I am not perceiving what you have posted as Christian, or atleast totally Christian. I was referring to all the posts in this thread. Some contain alot of Christianity. Also I was not referring to this thread only, but to the topics in general. Christianity seems to follow into Atheism areas, but likewise Atheism seems draw into Christianity areas.

I am not truly an Agnostic or Atheist. We could discuss our spirituality, but that is probably best put elsewhere because I really would hate to draw a sticky thread totally off topic. But I do associate some with Agnosticism because for the most part I truly do not know. I also feel that it is not as ultimate to know as some religions like to promote. I will know when it matters. Live life as best you can, Love as much as you can, and Learn as much as you can. What else is there?

[Avalon]

fallnangel77

I think you posed an excellent question on the discussion of Christianity while also discussing agnosticism/atheism.

I was taught of nothing but a little Catholicism and some Southern Baptist beliefs.  I think it was my introduction to those beliefs that caused me to "not believe".  I read the bible and thought, WTF IS this?  I don't know why.  I like Gandalf's post in which he expands on the notion of the "Christian God".  I like what he has to say and this is what I choose to tell people when discussing my beliefs with others, who are 99% of the time, Christian.  Because I too live in the bible belt.  It's very rare that I get to have conversations about agnosticism/atheism with other agnostics or atheists.  Not what I'm used to.


"I will know when it matters. Live life as best you can, Love as much as you can, and Learn as much as you can. What else is there?"

Great philosophy, simply put and it gets down to the basics.

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Originally posted by Avalon

"I will know when it matters. Live life as best you can, Love as much as you can, and Learn as much as you can. What else is there?"

Great philosophy, simply put and it gets down to the basics.

Thank you [] What better place to start than simple and basic.

[Avalon]

Okay, here is another point of view on the issue of Agnosticism/Aethism vs. Christianity.

Imagine for a moment there were no organized religion, no bible, no dogma.  Would we (in the world) believe in some kind of higher power?  Maybe, maybe not.  If we did not, would we all then be called Agnostic or Aethist?  My guess would be no because there would be no label for that belief or lack thereof.  

I think it is the fact that there are organized religions that propagated the Agnotic/Aetheistic label.  I subscribe to no particular religion or belief, and I used to call myself Agnostic, because it made me feel I "belonged" to something.  I no longer call myself that just because I can claim some kind of belief.  I believe in a higher power, I do not believe in the "Christian God".  Like Budda's philosphies.  

I imagine the word agnostic stems from gnostic (not too hard to make that connection).  Gnostic's have a belief in God, agnostics do not.  So, I do not think it came about from a belief in Christianity but in today's society, Christianity rules, not gnosticism.

Just another .02 from me.[]

[Gandalf]

but in today's society, Christianity rules, not gnosticism.


In today's 'western' society to be more exact.

The problem mentioned earlier is the fundamental mistake of thinking that 'no belief in the christian god' equals 'athiesm'.
Clearly this is wrong. This definition supposes that all those who adhere to other reliigons like Budhism, Hindism, Islam etc are 'athiests'.

I have heard some christians who actually state this, although it is clearly ridiculous.

Even if you do not adhere to any established religion, this does not make you an athiest.
Even if you only have a vague notion that there is 'some higher power or powers up there', this does not make you an athiest.

It also does NOT make you an 'agnostic' either. An agnostic thinks the jury is out regarding the reality of higher powers or not. However, Someone who has a vague idea that there ARE higher powers but is nevertheless sure that they exist in some form, are not 'agnostics'.

To be an athiest you have to disbelieve in the notion of divine powers completely, whatever they may be.

Douglas

[Avalon]

In today's 'western' society to be more exact.

That was what I meant.  Other than those who I have met on this website, in my little world, I have not met anyone who does not claim to be a Christian.  I realize there is more "out there" than what is presented to me, which is why I am on this website in the first place.

There is a quote that a Christian friend of mine sent me, he thought I'd like it. I haven't decided yet whether I agree with it or not.  Something about it really kind of irritated me.

"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F. Roberts