Sufism (Moderated Discussion)

[WalkerInTheWoods]

What is sufism?

[Radha]

I was initiated into the Naqshbandiya Sufi in 1967.  Can I be of some assistance?

[WalkerInTheWoods]

quote:Can I be of some assistance?

Yes, if you can tell us generally what sufism is and recommend books. []

[MJ-12]

Ic

[Beth]

MJ-12,

My knowledge of Islam and Islamic mysticism is very limited--however--I do believe that Rumi was Sufic.  While I am not familiar with all of his writings, I do know that that his poetry and stories are very profound and enlightening.  I do not know of a book that presents the philosophy behind Sufism--does anyone else??

Peace,
Beth

[Adrian]

Greetings everyone,

There is, what appears to be a very gpood website on sufism here:

http://www.sufism.org/

I believe Sufism is the mystical branch of Islam, and includes the "whirling dervish" for attaining altered states of consciousness.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[clandestino]

thanks for looking up that site, Adrian.

I think I read somewhere that the sufi believe in the existence of realms that are maintained by the collected efforts / conciousness of individuals.

This is a theme that we are all familiar with here, particularly with the new astral pulse island springing into existence !

Radha, can you tell us a bit about what being a sufi entails ?
cheers

Mark

[DjMidgetMan]

Sufis are known as "Islamic Mystics", their philosophies are somewhat a mixture of Islam and the Eastern Religions. They are many times rejected by the mainstream Sunni and Shi'ite Islam because of many of the practices of the Sufis(such as praising Sufi priests). Otherwise, Sufiism is very interesting and their philosophies lean towards personal salvation through ones chosen path instead of the mainstream view of salvation through the path laid out by Islam.

[Radha]

I'm not sure anyone can define Sufi to be honest.  There are those who feel it is Islamic, fo example.  However The Training (as I'll refer to it) existed before Christianity or Islam.  You might try to research the Kwajagan.  Teachers who brought The Training with them as, in my opinion, the Aryans moved southward from the North
Some Sufi groups study Al-Chemie (however they anglicize it) and this is the art we call Alchemy in the west.  Some are very similar to work done by Free Masons and Rosicrucians.
What I can say is that Hazrat Inayat Kahn brought the Chistiyya Sufi way to the West in the 20's and his two sons have each an international Sufi group for westerners.
Probably as good an intro to Chistiyya work, that is in simple english, is at the website of universel.net.  (It is spelled with an "el" at the end)
The other groups I've communicated with seemed to me to be unable to keep the chaos out of their Order and were falling into nonsense about international politics etc.  I would never recommend such a group as their Spiritual work is too weak to maintain Order and the Chaos is overtaking them as the Light withdraws.
Dervishes are another breed of cat.  Harder to locate, but the same general thoughts apply about them.  They are Rumi's people.  I fyou have never whirled and never tasted the wine of it they would be harder to understand, but well worth getting to know if you live near any.
Books?  The old "The Sufis" by Idries Shah is controversial but easy to read for westerners as an overview.  All of Hazrat Inayat Kahns writings are on the we b for free (3,000 plus pages of books).
Salaam,
Radha

[Adrian]

Greetings Radha,

Thank you very much indeed for you insight.

I also believe you have raised a very important point when you mention that Sufism pre-dates Islam. I am of the view that many, if not most of the worlds mystical, esoteric, Magical, occult and Spiritual traditions pre-date any form of orthodox religion by several thousands of years in many cases. What I believe we are seeing with Sufism, mystic Judaism etc, is the incorporation of these ancient philosophies and practices into modern religion in an attempt to make them more acceptable. The roots of all true mysticism and Spiritualism are very similar if not identical, and only the "wrapper" differs. Of course, many pure Spiritual, Magical and mystical traditions have always remained autonomous, i.e not aligned with orthodox religion, an excellent example being Hermetics.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[Radha]

Yes, I would agree 100% Adrian.  It was brought home to me when some friends I have of the Irish persuasion were researching into the Arthurian tradition.  It seemed every time they thought they had found where it came from, something else, much older would pop into view.
My first "Teacher" was a Chinese gentleman who was raised from age 7 in a monastary.  He said they were told that all training had the same goal: To re-gain conscious Union with Source.  The problem lay in choosing the mechanics for achieving it.  Some ethnic groupings would love detailed intellectual analysis, such as in the QBL; others would shudder at the thought preferring the direct approach of Zen or Surat Shabd Brahm.
If we all lived in our locales and had no outside communication, our training lives would be greatly simplified.  
The Chistiyya Sufi under Pir Vilayat Kahn and now his son and successor Pir Zia Kahn are examples I like to point out.  Pir Vilayat sent his son Zia, at a very young age, to train under the Dalai Lama,, and other teachers.
Thus Pir Zia has excellent insight into similarities and differences in various disciplines.  He might reply to a question with Buddhist thought or Hindu or Taoist...equally fluently.
This may pre-sage a return to times when we stress our oneness with one another in the common goal...as opposed to shooting each other for thinking differently.
Where would we be if we shot everyone who didn't think like we do?
A true Sufi, in my opinion, is in a country but not OF the country.  He is in a culture, but not OF the culture.  He just IS.
When in your work you arrive at the point where the only existence
IS...then you watch the universe whirl in it's silent dance...just as Rumi did, and you slowly begin to whirl...the smaller pendulum being turned by the larger one and then there is nothing but the whirling.  When the Dervish whirl, there is no doubt a golden silence spreading for miles around...as even nature pauses to bow as HE whirls past in his eternal dance.  Sufi always were and always will be there at the center where HE is Lord of the Dance...
Salaam

[Radha]

Adrian, all,
I couldn't get out of my mind a short poem by T.S. Eliott that has always defined Sufi to me.  For what it is worth:

The Still Point
by T.S. Eliott

At the still point of the turning world
neither from nor toward,
at the still point there the dance is
but neither arrest nor movement.

And do not call it fixity
where past and future are gathered
neither movement from nor toward,
neither ascent nor decline.

The inner freedom from practical desire
the release from action and suffering
release from the inner and outer compulsion
surrounded by a grace of sense
a white light still and moving.

Except for the point -- the still point,
there would be no dance
and there is only the dance.

[Adrian]

Greetings Radha,

Thank you very much indeed for your reply with which I totally agree, and also for the excellent T. S. Elliot poem which, as you say, is most appropriate.

You also raised another important point when you say:

quote:
If we all lived in our locales and had no outside communication, our training lives would be greatly simplified.

This of course is the objective of all monastic existences and there is alot to be said for it when it comes to the all important objective of pure Spiritual evolution. However, the whole point of being on Earth, in the midst of people, places and situations which differ widely and present numerous challenges, is to successfully overcome those challenges in the right way, by using the powers of the mind and overcoming the ego, and generally viewing physical life as a means by which to evolve as well as equilibrating karma. Those in monastic situations are not generally exposed to the world in the same way, but can nevertheless still dedicate themselves to the higher forces and their potential, thereby developing higher abilities of the sort we are all aware of, while also achieving equilibrium and most importantly realising the Divine within.

With best regards,

Adrian.

[clandestino]

Radha, thanks for pointing me towards the website www.universel.net . It looks very interesting; I hope to get some time in the near future to study it in more depth.

In the mean time, I'll hunt down Hazrat Kahn's writings,

regards,
Mark

[Radha]

Mark, You are welcome.  To my memory on Universel's website somewhere is the collected writings on Pir Hazrat Inayat Kahn.  Some 3,000 odd pages.  If you don't see it listed on there I'll search my files for the URL for it.
Yes, Adrian, you are quite spot on.  The "householder" started becoming the target of many schools that had long remained hidden.
I personally felt there was a need to test methods, then when they proved stable in the "closed door" groups they would be taught openly.
I still belong to such a group.  We get our heads knocked half off sometimes, but when the teachers smooth out the exercise, then we take it to our general membership, and they can take it out into daily life to apply.
Sufi are a strange breed of cat in many ways, but I've always loved them one and all for their tireless efforts.  Their orientation to being of service to mankind is something to behold.
When I wanted to be initiated, I knew a man near Chicago who knew aguy who knew a guy etcetc and he said if I could be at his pig farm in Iowa nby a certain time on a certain day, he could arrage it.
I drove like the devil across the country finally found the pig farm (more by odor that by road signs) and I got there, got out and sat on a log waiting.  After a couple of hours a Limo pulled in and out stepped a middle eastern gentleman.  He walked over to me and we did what we needed to do, then he left and so did I.  I drove half the night to get home and ready for work the next day.  Worth it?  To this day I can close my eyes and their is the Sheikh standing there beckoning to me.  Years later I was in a city visiting some sufi friends and we went to visit a group of Dervish who were there on a visit from Turkey.  Well whirling is a very wonderful experience, watched or done and when I said how much I wished we could get the fez of pure lambs wool here in the states, the Devish took his off and put it on my head.  No matter how much I protested he insisted I would honor him by keeping it and when I whirled , wearing it.  I still have it sittting on a shelf near where I type emails.
They are wonderful, selfless people.
Salaam,
Radha

[Usiimers]

Hello friends,
I haven't posted on Robert's website in a long time.  I'm glad to see these new forums.  
I am a Muslim and follow the Sufi path.  I am not saying that I am a Sufi or that Sufism is at all different from Islam.  To me Sufism is the spiritual heart of Islam.  In the end, all of these labels are not important.
Islam simply means Submission to the will of God.  Sufis main concern is raising conciousness by overcoming the Nafs(ego/lower self).  This is done through love.  In the Qur'an it says that everywhere you turn there is the face of God.  For the Sufi, the most important thing is La Ilaha Ilallah.  That is that nothing exists besides God.  That means that everyone and everything must be respected and every action must be done with grace and love.
To me the message of Islam and Sufism is beautiful and simple.  I do not think that it is unique though.  Islam claims to be simply a continuation of messages given to 124,000 messengers throughout time.  These include Muhammad,Abraham, Moses Jesus and many would add Buddha, Krishna and others to the list.
Of course, as Carl Jung says, there is always a shadow.  There is a dark side to every religion and I think its dangerous to ignore it.  Islam has its dark aspects just as Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism and every other faith does.
Islam is a path that many walk towards enlightenment and peace.  Just look at many of the great mystics of Islam such as Rumi, Hafiz, Ibn Arabi, Bawa Muhaiyaddeen and Hazrat Inayat Khan to see the beauty in the religion.  
I suggest reading Atom From the Sun of Knowledge by Lex Hixon or anything by the above.  
I'm not an expert on Islam or Sufism, I am still learning.  

[ICWiz]

Dear Friend,

I have been part of the Naqshbandi Order for a few years now.

Sufism is Islam, and Islam is Sufism. There is not difference between the two. The idea that Sufism is a more mystical form of Islam isn't true. A Sufi, is simply a very pious Muslim.

Nowadays, some Muslim sects will reject this, however, the ideology of Sufism is in the Quran and hadith.

The prophet Muhammad (P.B.U.H) spoke of the state of Isaan, or excellence. This is the state in which a person forgets and ignores everyone but Allah. You lose yourself in his love. This is what all Sufi orders strive to achieve. All of the 40 Sufi ways are correct. They are just different ways of getting to the same goal. (this does not include the Weed smoking Sufis[]).

Go to www.the-heart.net for more information.


"If you bring forth what is within you, what you bring forth will save you. If you do not bring forth what is within you, what you do not bring forth will destroy you."

Isa (Jesus).

[clandestino]

quote:I suggest reading Atom From the Sun of Knowledge by Lex Hixon or anything by the above.

cheers usiimers ! I'll look into this.

quote:Of course, as Carl Jung says, there is always a shadow. There is a dark side to every religion and I think its dangerous to ignore it. Islam has its dark aspects just as Christianity, Buddhism, Judaism, Hinduism and every other faith does.

I agree...and I feel that the majority of people also agree that there is a good & bad side to each religion. Of course, there are bad times afoot, what with terrorism etc. But the bad minorities should never be allowed to over-shadow the good majorities. Looking back in history, minorities have perpetrated crimes in the name of every religion.

We mustn't forget the peaceful majorities though !

Hi ICWiz,

Can you share more info on the Naqshbandi order ?

thanks,
Mark

[Mirador]

quote:Can you share more info on the Naqshbandi order ?

Many years ago, while rummaging in an old dusty bookstore, in the back of a quaint esoteric bookstore in downtown Caracas, I bumped into a yellowing paperback copy of Idries Shaw's, The Exploits of the Incomparable Mulla Nasrudin. Much later, at home, after reading half way through the book, I came upon a small cardboard presentation card with the legend 'Are you interested in knowing more about sufism?, if your answer is afirmative, please call the following phone number xxxxxx' printed on it. I called immediately, and a very kind man responded thoroughly to all my questions. I told him I would very much like to join his group, and he told me he would call me on a later date to arrange a meeting...
What happened afterwards, the meeting, and throughout my membership with the group that called itself 'the Naqshbandi order of Sufism' has been one of the most uncanny things that's ever happened to me, and has created in me a deep mistrust of 'religious' groups.

Mirador

[kenshinhan604]

Hey ya all iwas passing bye and noticed this thread, a few of my friends have opened a new website dedicated to islam,  and its teachings if you have anything to ask please visit plez visit and go ahead


Kasim

www.albaraa.net

[galacticsurfer]

I read the book Living from the Heart(also in Geman and spanish available) at the following site which gives direct sufi meditation instructions. It is very effective in stimulating energy body. Author is Puran Bair.

http://www.appliedmeditation.org/Living_from_the_Heart/living_from_the_heart.shtml

[najam]

ALL your discussion about sufism is too rationalist. Hte fact is depite everything sufism is a mystic order. THis does not mean that is involved in sub-normal activities it means that the essence of sufism is to reject logic. Sharazi, Naziam, all were proponents of thinking which was out of the parametres of meta-pysics anf epistomology.

The at present in english lanauage the only writing worth reading if on does not have a background in sufism is Neitzche's "THUS SPOKE ZARATHUSRA". The most esstinial concept of sufism is that of the murshid ( Ubermensch) and without understanindg ubermench it is impossiable to understand anything relating to sufism.

As Hazrat Emir Khusro a sufi os the 13th century says that the murshid links me to Ali and Ali to the Prophet and Prophet to the God.

[clandestino]

Hi Najam, hows things ?! The link below has a description of a murshid.

http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/V/V_44.htm

I've read "thus spoke zarathustra" but I had never linked this to Sufism...Showing up my limited knowledge of the latter (or both!).

I always considered Nietzche's drive and philosophy to be more physical/ practical than spiritual.

[clandestino]

Can anybody recommend a book on sufism ? Even better, is anyone here a sufi(? is that the right term, sorry if I've got it wrong...) ??

thanks and best wishes,

Mark