Any written evidence which can be relied upon?

[Gandalf]

If the ones who wrote the Bible, knew the future so to speak, they must have been either good guessers or inspired by something spiritual.
Mustardseed
__________________

But how can we say that those who wrote the bible 'knew the future'?

Just beacause people have come along later and interpreted events to fit in with what the bible says, does not prove that the bible writers 'know the future'.
In actual fact, the revelations chapters are written in such a vague way that anyone can interprete them to fit any time-frame. This does not prove its validity. In fact this suggests the opposite.
Anyone can issue vague predictions which the reader will interprete in accordance with their own circumstances and say 'ah this is reffering to such and such'.
Look at any good horoscope writer or even other great prophets like Nostradamus.

Furthermore, as Beth has pointed out, anything you quote to me in order to prove that the revelations refer to our own time, I can use to prove with equal validity that it refers to the 5th century AD, or the 1st Century, or the 16th, or the 20th, or 31st.

The revelations chapter is just a fairly generic apocalyptic prophesy, but perhaps as Beth points out, there may be a more illuminating subtext behind the vague literal form.

Douglas

[Mustardseed]

Gandalf
I was referring to Beths interpretation and that the AC would be those who fray in Jesus name. The atrocities that you all speak so much about are continued to modern day, right?

On another note talking about interpretation of the things in the Bible. It is common to see that there are 3 or more layers. This very point is actually the best argument FOR her theory. So dont knock it. Most bible scholars count the imidiate fulfillment, the intermediate fullfilment and the final fulfillment.

Take the Israelites. They were named the children of God, or gods people, though they were not even Jews yet(imidiate). Then from Jacobs ladder till the birth and death of jesus they were the Jews (intermediate) and from the sacrefice of Jesus till now those who recieve Him are His Children (final) . This is only qouting generally accepted methods. I personally do not know if there are further layers. If there are we will find out.

This also is the same with the Anticrist. Paul said "for even now there are many anticrists" It seems that Satan was the first, maybe Cesar the second and The AC (future) final. Bible prophecy is very mysterious and nothing is straight forward. I am a bit in a hurry so I wont go over this again. Hope it makes sense.

Regards Mustardseed

Regards Mustardseed

[Beth]

Mustardseed,

You wrote:  

quote:On another note talking about interpretation of the things in the Bible. It is common to see that there are 3 or more layers. This very point is actually the best argument FOR her theory. So dont knock it. Most bible scholars count the imidiate fulfillment, the intermediate fullfilment and the final fulfillment.

Take the Israelites. They were named the children of God, or gods people, though they were not even Jews yet(imidiate). Then from Jacobs ladder till the birth and death of jesus they were the Jews (intermediate) and from the sacrefice of Jesus till now those who recieve Him are His Children (final) . This is only qouting generally accepted methods. I personally do not know if there are further layers.

One of my earliest posts explained about the 3, sometimes 4 different layers of scripture.  These are different layers of interpretive meaning found within the surface layer of the whole epic story.

What you are talking about though, are not "layers of scripture" but rather, 3 different divisions of "generations of people" in a straight timeline. You, along with these other Christian scholars that you speak of, are once again thinking of this in terms of real-life people in succession through hundreds of years.  That Christians are the "real chosen" people of God is very much a part of Christian dogma, so of course they would make this claim.  

Using the method that I have been presenting here, I will offer a very likely explanation of this same line of thinking only not drawing the same conclusion at all.  I will do so by putting in quotation marks the "proper name" and its "meaning" as I give you the explanation.  This is how is was done by those ancient writers that I have mentioned in these threads.

According to what I have come to understand, "Abraham" represents the "seer of gnosis/knowledge" that "is brought out from Ur"--or "brought out from the light."  

"Moses" continued to "draw forth" this knowledge into the world, to aid other "Hebrews" that had "passed over from the other side."  This was not an easy task even for those who should understand, for the pleasures of this physical world are very tempting and one can easily get overwhelmed and lose sight of what their true natures really are.  

It took "Joshua" or "salvation" to actually "deliver" the Israelites into the promised land--into understanding the truth of their spiritual nature.

When "Jacob" came along, he also attempted "to supplant" the erroneous ways of people, but it was not until he himself had evolved far enough to have been renamed "Israel"--or "one who could see God"--that he could be really make any impact.  

After this, the languge began to change a bit, and the Isralites or "those people who could see God" were ruled by King "David," or by "being a Beloved" of God.  This is where the establishment of the Israelites as the "chosen people of God" became known as the "Beloved Bride" and God became the "Beloved Bridegroom."  King "Solomon" or "peacefulness" is the recognition of being a Beloved of God, the Song of Songs tells us this spiritual story.

Previous to the first century, people had already taken these stories as literal fact and the writers of the first century were attempting to unravel and explain the error of this kind of thinking, by creating new stories that told of the same things.  Thus they used the same name for the primary characher that was used in the earlier story, Joshua, (in English read as "Jesus") to try once again to offer "salvation" and "deliver them from error."  As we read throughout the NT, the words "Beloved" and "Bride/Bridegroom" are also used in the same way as before.  Many of the metaphors were used through using the same names as found in the Hebrew Bible (OT) they were just reworked into a "new epic story."

For example, Baptism in the NT could, on one level, be seen as a symbol of "stirring the waters within" of those who had the potential to see the truth, and on another level baptism could represent "being immersed into the water of scripture."  The whole Torah was considered as "water" for the thirsty--or also known as the "Water of Life" or "Living Waters."  In the earlier story where Moses parted the "waters" or the "Sea of Reeds" he did not do anything supernatural, he "opened up the written Torah" and taught people the secrets held within its "stories."    

The NT was the same literary tradition Mustardseed, as that used in the Old.  It was just updated with a newer surrounding circumstance that people could better relate to.  That is why some of the NT stories can be supported such as the Greek and the Romans, but is also why none of the actual NT characters can be accounted for.  They were fictional characters with names that carried very important meanings to the spiritual welfare of all people.  All the same metaphors and experiences are included in this updated message, and so to finally get around to answering your "immediate, intermediate and final fullfilment" point, this is most likely something that actually happens "within" an individual person. It is most likely a person's individual "spiritual advancement" and this could have happened to anyone at any time, and did happen to people throughout the centuries regardless of what "generation" they belonged to.  The opportunity to advance spiritually, comes "like a thief in the night" so we should all be ready at all times, making sure that we have been living right, and in accordance with our true spiritual natures.

As to the anti-christ, yes Paul said that there were many anti-christs, and these anti-christs are all of the physical pleasures and circumstances that cloud people's minds, and prohibit them from understanding their true natures.  Remember as I have posted before, "Satan" only means "adversary" and this can be manifested as any of a number of "adversarial" things.  In my previous post about the Christian Church possibly being the anti-christ?  Because of the way it was established, and the way in which it operates, the Christian Church could easily be seen as "adversarial" to people coming to know and accept their true natures as the spiritual beings that we all are.  But people don't need a "church" or "organization" at all--all we need is to heed the "voice of the Holy Spirit."

It is my highest hope Mustardseed, that once all of this is properly explained--this time without creating a NEW story to be misunderstood--that people from all walks of life will make themselves available to the Spirit of the Divine and that we will all come to know ourselves as a Beloved People of God.

I hope this all makes sense.

Beth

[Mustardseed]

I think I understant your theory in very rough form. What I was referring to Beth was the promises of blessings as well as curses to the individual person or group of people, imidiate intermediate and final. Same with the prophesy about the end time. Imidiate was the destruction of Jerusalem intermediate maybe the various persecusions of Christians under the antichrists, such as Hitler and Stalin. Hitler did not only kill jews!. and the Final, the great tribulation thought to occour at the rise of his world kingdom.

You see the point I am trying to make is that the Bible has been very right about several historical facts . Things prophesied by Daniel fx about the future wars kingdoms etc seem to have come true to an amazing extend and I acknowledge it to be the truth, as I see it, come true.

Fulfilled prophesy is you see another point that I find inconsistant with your way of interpreting. It seems that the different books were written at different times, am I right about that?. If they were then they would have had to have some way of communicating what to write in the future right otherwise the prophesies , if we consider them fake, would be hard to "fulfill" . Someone would have had to write the book in segments almost to make it all fit.

If you wish I can write down an actual example ?

Regards Mustardseed

[Beth]

Mustardseed,

I am not saying that The Book of Revelation is not a real prophecy.  I am saying that it is written in very heavy symbolic terms, and that to take it literally is to totally misunderstand it.  

The Book of Revelation was written almost 2,000 years ago and ends with "I am coming soon!"  

"Soon" came and went a long time ago--unless you allow for it to be something other than what the church claims it to be.  

The Christian expectation is that Jesus is going to descend upon a cloud, with angels and trumpets and the "end of this world."  It is now 2,000 years later and the events, taken in a literal/physical sense have yet to happen.  This is not going to happen Mustardseed.  This planet will continue to turn and change, just like it has for the past 2,000 years, until either our sun burns out, a major meteor crashes into us--or we destroy it by fighting amongst ourselves.  

The "Soon" that I proposed above, however, makes The Book of Revelation a "spiritual prophecy" not a "physical prophecy."  

"Like a thief in the night" the "end of the world as we know it" can occur at anytime, and already has occured many times over, for when each one of us finally recognizes our true spiritual nature, our view of reality is forever changed--our "old world has passed away" and a "new world has come into existence."

When the Church closed the canon of the Bible, it closed the doors on all other prophecies.  Therefore, Christianity is still thriving on an ancient prophecy and there is no room for "Jesus to come again" because the expectation is "physical" and not "spiritual."  People are not expecting that!  

The Church has had 1,700 years in charge of the spiritual welfare of humanity, and it has not been very effective.  Their numbers have certainly grown leaps and bounds, but the quality of our world is declining at a frightening rate of speed.  Our world needs help Mustardseed, but until the Church "moves out of the way" and "the spirit is allowed to move in" we will continue in the same manner as we always have--that is bickering amongst ourselves over "who is right and who is wrong."  

And the real travesty in all this, is that many people are so tired of this centuries old disagreement, that they are giving up on all things "spiritual" and closing their minds to everything outside of this physical world.  They go shopping or watch TV instead of thinking about it.  

Our world is in a mess. It is past time for a change.  In my opinion, we must "open our minds and our hearts" to the "current voice of the spirit" --perhaps the same voice that was speaking in the ancient prophecies--and let the spirit speak to us in terms of today--instead of listening to the age-old Church's voice that can only keep repeating itself with its "old message."  I truly think that the prophecy of The Book of Revelation HAS been fulfilled. It is, on the other hand, the Church's promises that have NOT.

Beth  

[Adrian]

Greetings,

We suspect that the bible is largely constituted from a collection of works, probably originating as stories and fables etc., i.e. hearsay, and which was eventually gathered together and compiled in Greek as the original bible, and which was subsequently translated, re-translated, interpreted and re-interpeted, largely to meet the controlling aspirations of churches and governments.

The question though is this: is there any written evidence whatsoever relating to the bible, and in particular John? I asl because is said that the Essenes has their own copy of John's Gospel, and then of course there is the Nag Hammadi library etc..

The biggest question is; how did the original bible come to be composed in Greek, and what was the basis for those works? Many people seem to overlook the fact that Greece is a good distance from the so called "holy lands" where everything was supposed to have taken place; what is now Israel to Greece must be several hundred miles across the Mediterranean.

With best regards,

Adrian.